Psychic Barrier - does it affect Invulnerable saves?

[gunnyogrady]

Howdy folks! This is pretty much what it says on the tin.

 

I had a guy at my local store the other night trying to tell me that the Psykana power "Psychic Barrier" does not give a +1 to Invulns. I was stacking Celestine's 6+ with the power to give my infantry 5+ invulnerable saves.

 

1d4chan, as well as threads here, on Reddit, and on DakkaDakka all corroborate that the power does boost Invulnerable saves. The reason for this is the wording, which says that, "Until the start of your next Psychic phase, add 1 to that unit's saving throws."

 

Syllogism here:

A ) The rule does not differentiate between armor and invulnerable, saying only "saving throws."

B ) Both armor and invulnerable are saving throws.

C ) Therefore, the rule affects both Armor and Invulnerable saves.

 

The logic seems really clear, and four other sources have concluded the same thing.

 

Are there any official sources to back this up? It was pretty frustrating, because the gentlemen disagreeing was kind of the main rules guru/organizer at this location. I was very friendly and laid back about it (eventually agreeing to not have it count towards Invulns for that game), but he couldn't actually articulate why he thought it wouldn't affect invulnerable saves. He just kept saying that "armor saves and Invulnerable saves are two totally different things." Which, yes they are, and that also doesn't mean Psychic Barrier doesn't effect both of them.

 

Any thoughts, interpretations, opinions? Any pro tips for handling this guy?

Edited September 29, 2017 by gunnyogrady

[Halfpint100]

Personally I would say no. Though you make a good point... it does say saving throws. That could mean invun. I would wait till codex drop to see if it clarifies it or not

[FallenSoldiers]

I've always thought it would apply.  

 

"add 1 to the unit's saving throws" doesn't specify ONLY armor saves or ONLY invuln saves.  Using the wording from the index I can't see how he could argue it any other way.

[HenricusTyranicus]

Yeah, plus one to saving throws encompasses all saving throws.

[Beams]

Saving throws are armor and invuln.

[librisrouge]

I don't see any conceivable reason why it wouldn't. Invulnerable saves are still saves, and the power benefits saves, without distinction.

[noigrim]

Oh boy 2++ custodes

[FallenSoldiers]

Oh boy 2++ custodes

You can only cast psychic barrier on <astra militarum> keyword units

[Halfpint100]

3++ bullgryns

[noigrim]

Ops my bad didn't read that through

[FallenSoldiers]

Ops my bad didn't read that through

No worries! I only knew that because I was looking up using one with Legion of the Damned. No can do.

[CoffeeGrunt]

3++ Bullgryns is the popular choice.

[Beams]

I've also seen the infamous "0+" bullgryns, who get psychic barrier and cover, and camp a midfield objective.

 

They are really, really hard to move at that point.

[FallenSoldiers]

FYI:

This was actually addressed in the FAQ for general rules:

 

Q: If an ability allows me to add 1 to saving throws, does it apply to both normal saving throws and invulnerable throws?

 

A: Yes, unless otherwise stated.

[NatBrannigan]

Well then, that's that I'd say!

 

That does seem like a tasty combo. I'm looking at all these spare Brute Shields from my Bullgryns and thinking I'll make more Crusaders at the moment!

[gunnyogrady]

It was addressed in an FAQ? Great! From all your responses, it seems like common sense would dictate it does, but I'm also glad there's an official source.