Competitiveness of the Ultramarines several Codex on...

[Captain Idaho]

So a quick discussion and review folk. How are things going?

 

Broad eh.

 

Well we have new Codex books aplenty and some are quite tasty looking. How are you finding games against them?

 

Personally I'm feeling GW is doing pretty good with balance, both internally and externally with the Codex books. Things I don't rate are less and less. Servitors are pretty much rubbish and Thunderfire cannons compete with too mucb but aside from that it looks good.

 

I took on the Death Guard and narrowly lost. It was mostly my fault but totally a fun game. Must remember next time to not place my Terminators next to 3 Smite users when they should be killing that Daemon Prince with wings.

 

Who knew, right?

 

Grey Knights against a competitive player saw me narrowly win. I used a Culexus Assassin against them but my luck was out. Devastators and Venerable Dreadnought caused a single wound over 2 turns (including a failed Auspex Scan) and were wiped out. Had they did even half of what I expected I would have won hands down.

 

The dice gods...

 

So overall I'm happy. Haven't fought many games against the new Codex books and want some rematches soon, but I'm confident enough.

[Brother Captain Ed]

I'm less happy.

 

Now, I admit that my collection being what it is is a major limiting factor. So there's that. And its also possible that we just don't play like I like to play. Put out there immediately.

 

But...

 

I don't feel that, against a competitive list, we are competitive without Guilliman. I know that this is a topic that goes round and round on this board and I know some disagree. But I cannot escape that conclusion. As more and more codexes arrive it becomes ever more apparent. In any game I play where the opponent also has a codex, I find that they have better firepower, that will hit you, is capable if wrecking both the marine and Primaris statlines, and generally does kind of wonky crap as well.

 

Now, it's not like the old days where games were decided in list selection or anything. 8th is hands down (HANDS DOWN!) my favorite edition. But without rerollable wounds, and the personal threat of the primarch, I am consistently underwhelmed.

[Captain Idaho]

I haven't found that. I rarely use special characters to be honest and my Grey Knight opponent is a competitive tournament player.

 

He took a unit of Paladins and 2 Grand Masters in Dreadknights which went down to my army without heavy weapons since they all flunked. I did it with overcharged plasma from Tacticals and brave counter charges from a Contemptor (Emperor rest his soul), Terminators and a Sanctic Halo Captain and Lieutenant.

 

Rerolling 1s is still pretty good on weapons that hit and wound on a 3+ or better.

[Frater Cornelius]

This is my major issue with Codex SM: they are effective, but boring. Yes, I really dislike how C:SM was written. A lot of units, especially UM, are limited to boring skills and stratagems like re-rolls or modifiers. But that is the thing, those boring skills is what make UM, in my eyes, a T1 army. They have the tools to take most armies very well. Calgar is the most efficient Chapter Master, and even without they have plenty of re-rolls to go around. They have re-rolls 1s to wound through a Lieutenant and +1 modifier to wound with Sternguard. They have Armour of Contempt and Librarians (with DtW and Psychic Fortress) to neuter psychic alpha strike. The list goes on. Add Guilliman and they will wipe the floor with the newer books.

 

However, those kind of lists are boring to play. The newer books are definitely more fun to play and collect. UM are forced to play a gunline or deathball to be competitive, but they do it so well, that they become high end competitive. The other books can be competitive with various builds though.

 

I have yet to be let down by the army. Those few games I lost were solely due to personal failure. Having said that, I am rather bored of it and since I refuse to play another army I tend to spend more time building than playing, in the hope that more Primaris roll along to spice things up, because lets face it. SM are far more likely to receive more Primaris than they are miniMarines.

 

To sum it up, functional but boring.

[TrexPushups]

I am jealous of chaos because their +1 to wound stratagem isn't tied to a specific unit.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't know about finding the army boring but then I take combined arms type lists with a healthy smattering of firepower and Dreadnoughts.

 

Big metal guys with guns and fists = fun.

 

I see your point though. There is a specific lack of magic you might get in a Codex like Death Guard. I do feel this is intended though. Marines are a no nonsense bunch and should just work.

 

****

 

Anyway...

 

What playstyles and army builds are players finding successful?

[Frater Cornelius]

I don't know about finding the army boring but then I take combined arms type lists with a healthy smattering of firepower and Dreadnoughts.

 

Big metal guys with guns and fists = fun.

 

I see your point though. There is a specific lack of magic you might get in a Codex like Death Guard. I do feel this is intended though. Marines are a no nonsense bunch and should just work.

 

****

 

Anyway...

 

What playstyles and army builds are players finding successful?

 

What is missing in my eyes are unique UM units, as I mentioned in other threads, more variety in Primaris and something akin to Primaris TDA . I love the image of a Primarch flanked by extremely beefy 50mm walking bulwarks. DG got that with their Deathshrouds. Now I want to see Guilliman in a similar fashion. In fact, I want a Primaris version of the Victrix Guard Oo

Well, I also lack some melee prowess on the Primaris side and even the entire book outside of TDA. I like a choppy character and his elite dudes get stuck in against the endless hordes, Paladin style.

 

I agree on the no-nonsense part. The boringness(?) I refer to is probably a thing because there is little variation in play style. But I am sure that little bit of magic is missing indeed. But I still like 30k UM and IF, even though they are very similar. That is probably because they have fun special units and more fleshed out rules. I feel like the rules in C:SM, while very effective, seem a little uninspired and half-hearted in terms of flavour.

 

As for play-styles. The most successful I tried was the Guilliman deathball with scoring units like Reivers and Scouts to drop on objectives while the Guilliman + Primaris + a few other units roll up the board and take apart the opponent and anything resembling him roughly within the same post-code.

 

The second most successful, albeit probably not as prepared to deal with Tier 1 lists, is what I like to call the "double ball" where I drop Guilliman and instead build around a Captain and 1-2 Dreads. One group will be the Repulsor with the Captain, Lieutenant and whatever else, while the second group will be slower and build around the Dread re-rolls and possibly a second Lieutenant and Ancient. This setup has good positioning flexibility and even output across the board instead of the core of the damaged base around one Guilliball.

 

Whatever the setup though, I can attribute a lot of my success to the UM trait. Being able to use so many CP on top of re-rolls gives the army so much efficiency. Even if you play turds, they will be the most beautifully polished and shined turds you have ever seen.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Captain Idaho]

I suspect much of the problem you are experiencing is Primaris Marines orientated. Their units are indeed boring and don't do much on the table except stand there and shoot.

 

I do want to see some Ultramarines specific units of course but then Codex Space Marines wasn't for Ultramarines alone ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

I suspect much of the problem you are experiencing is Primaris Marines orientated. Their units are indeed boring and don't do much on the table except stand there and shoot.

 

I do want to see some Ultramarines specific units of course but then Codex Space Marines wasn't for Ultramarines alone

 

Hey, do not forget the new and exciting move-6-towards-the-enemy-and-shoot and the wonderful move-6-away-from-the-opponent-and-shoot and who could forget the absolute smasher of move-diagonally-but-still-remain-inside-the-bubble-and-shoot. Yeah, you get my point :D

[Stoic Raptor]

Imagine that - an army of soldiers that shoots people! :O

;)

[Frater Cornelius]

Imagine that - an army of soldiers that shoots people!

 

What do you think this is, M3? In the grim darkness of M41, there is only close combat!

[Ishagu]

Ultramarines are fine. I don't think the Space Marine strategems are good in general because they all focus on specific units which limits your army. None of them do anything specific for Primaris.

 

Looking at Astra Militarum and Chaos, they tend to be wide reaching, Eg: Chose an infantry unit or chose a Tank and do something with them.

 

Guilliman is good, he's a great deterrent for assaulting enemies but if you're playing on tables with sufficient cover he'll hinder your force if you try and remain within the aura bubble.

 

Ultimately I think the Codex isn't quite finished because of limited Primaris integration. They are beautiful models however, and as I'm a sucker for the visual aspect of the army I'll be running them ahead of normal guys.

[TrexPushups]

Thinking about it the stratagem that we get that doesn't seem shared in some format with others and doesn't require a specific build is Orbital Bombardment.

 

Which is understandable not considered the jewel of Ultramar.

 

It is expensive. It requires multiple rolls. But I think we should keep it in mind because when you see huge clumps of units like our Gulliman Razorback parking lot the chance to do d3 mortal wounds to 4-6 units is worth gambling for. Especially if you are using adept of the codex.

 

It is situational but we would do well to keep our eyes peeled for the right situation.

[Frater Cornelius]

Orbital Bombardment is the prime example of how little thought went into that book. It is the most useless Stratagem, bar none.

[MeltaRange]

One thing that I think gets a little lost when comparing one army to another, or just in the quest to find the "best" or "most efficient" units/army builds, is the breadth of selection in a Codex.  Here is where Codex SM and even better Ultra's in general shine, and I think that benefit gets overlooked when someone picks up the Adeptus Mechanicus codex and says "holy hell look at these shooting profiles" and makes a Mars "Cawl Bubble" list that nukes people to death.  What you might not see right away, is that if they need some kind of speedy unit to grab objectives with, they are really pigeon holed into Infiltrators, which are T3 4+/6++ and expensive.  Just a random example.

 

I could decide, as Captain Idaho did in another thread, that my army needs some meaner close combat assault units and go to the Codex to see a wide variety of tools.  Beyond that, I could decide to give those units storm shields, or lightning claws, or even a mix of the 2 if I wanted to.  Mechanicum really doesn't have that.  Neither does Astra Militarium. 

 

The ability to have the tools available to plug holes in an army is subtlety powerful, in my opinion.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Sorry.  I disagree strongly.

 

The Astra Militarum is the most deep, diverse, and variable codex yet.  The options are many.  Some are obvious.  Some are subtle.  But you could easily take 10 players and get 10 substantively different IG/AM lists that fall within the same band of relative effectiveness.  That's plain not true of the Space Marine codex. 

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think Astra Millitarum is particularly diverse on the table. Wedge of infantry and tanks in support, all hanging back and shooting because their tanks and weapons do better that way. Gun lines with different paint essentially

 

Our Codex isn't too specific in its Stratagems I feel. We have a Heavy Bolter and missile Launcher one that applies to only 3 units, but those units are core to any Ultramarines force in the shape of Tactical, Scouts and Devastator squads. That's one example.

 

I regret the Land Speeder/Whirlwind, Predator and Vindicator Stratagems of course since they are very specific to builds that aren't very thematic to the Ultramarines and create quite niche lists.

 

But a combined arms list that has few or no Primaris units will be mobile, varied and pretty solid on the table.

 

***

 

Astra Millitarum look very mean on the table. Sheer numbers equals redundancy whilst firepower levels are monstrous. However, in an objective game they have to spread out and move which should make them vulnerable whilst blunting their hitting power.

 

If the terrain is right that is. We need table that block decent line of sight. Not the old 40K from 5th edition tables that for some reason no one replaced which has line of sight through woods and ruins and literally everything.

[Frater Cornelius]

I think that the neutering of Pods and removal of Formations have robbed SM of flavour. Say what you want about how broken and bad both of those things were for the game, and for the most part I will agree, but noone can deny that they made Marines interesting.

 

Now that those things are gone, things are more tame but also bland. Primaris players got hit even harder, because the big boys are even less diverse than their already borderline bland brothers.

 

I agree that Astra is a better designed book, but I disagree that the army is more interesting. They are mainly just shooty blobs or shooty tanks. Marines have the potential to be far more, if not for the hamstringing of certain units and making characters that support gunlines OP.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Prot]

I've held back on saying anything because I just think it's too soon. For a long time we were the only codex and all I'd hear is how potent it is. I'd just nod my head and keep rolling dice knowing full well that Codex creep (in some form or other) would happen.

 

Here we are looking at what is arguably the strongest codex in the game (IG). It was arguably the strongest index army in the game, and I just can't see any real magic bullets in it. It was very smart of GW to put out the codexes in this order. If Astra was first, you wouldn't find a lot of AdMech takers, and even less guys wanting to foot slog there (DG) and perhaps less people wanting to play a ranged game with expensive aura's (SM).

 

Chaos (imo) is the worst of the lot (without going outside the codex). 

 

So now is SM competitive? I think a good player is always going to make a decent codex work. Two equally skilled dudes make it much tougher to answer. 

 

I think the codex is going to end up right in the middle by this time next year. The thing that will potentially move the needle is new (Primaris?) units, or characters (Dorn?)

 

SM will have some psyker, some flyers, some strong ranged, some decent CC, and lots of characters. I think the codex is made to draw people to the game initially with amazing models, great theme, and a fairly flexible playstyle.

[TrexPushups]

Maybe I am missing it but as far as I can tell no other force has a unit as game changing in utility as the humble space marine scouts.

3 very cheap units not only fills out half a brigade or a full battalion but due to their deployment rules they shut down all board jammers, all deepstrike alpha strikes, and provide forward deployed objective grabbers. Neither Ravenguard nor alpha legion style tricks work either.

They are that good at controlling space in the first turn. 

With the hellfire stratagem they even have the option to deal mortal wounds.

We also have 3 varieties of bikes that all perform their assigned purpose.

Attack bike are handy skirmishers/cheap fast attack slots that can get line breaker for us and provide modest anti-infantry firepower for a mere 47 points.

Venerable dreadnoughts are fantastic fire support platforms that fill out elite slots while giving you accurate heavy weapons platforms with a nice extra bit of resilience. 

We should resist the urge to go oooo shiney and focus on the best ways to use the tools we already have.

 

[Frater Cornelius]

@TrexPushups - Scouts are delicious, I give you that. I'll also be the first one to admit that I suffer every new Codex release, because I am tempted to the core by new stuff. It is somewhat of a miracle that I was able to stick with UM since roughly the beginning of 2017. But this may have also caused my current burn-out and perceived hopelessness when it comes to building, thus my inability to see the bright side about UM when compared even to CSM, which is know is factually worse.

 

@Prot - The last part you mentioned is what I fear the most. I hope SM, and Primaris in particular, stay a fun to play army as opposed to becoming a dedicated entrance force for new players and useless to anyone with a higher caliber than that :/

[greatcrusade08]

ill put my one dimensional foot in here and agree that scouts are excellent in this edition IMHO.

scout bikes are especially good, o special weapons, but sheer weight of fire combined with a good stratagem for mortal wounds.

I had thought on put power fists on them, but I feel combi melta is better, especially as we can fall back, do mortals with stratagem and then still fire our weapons.

[Frater Cornelius]

Speaking from my Primaris perspective again, one simple change could turn around the entire boat in my opinion. Give Primaris access to the Armoury. Allow me to customize sergeants and HQs with melee weapons and so forth. They either went over board with their whole WYSIWYG policy, which they only inforced on SM for some weird reason, or they are indeed planning to turn Primaris into a beginner army and thus making it unappealing for literally anyone else.

[Prot]

@TrexPushups - Scouts are delicious, I give you that. I'll also be the first one to admit that I suffer every new Codex release, because I am tempted to the core by new stuff. It is somewhat of a miracle that I was able to stick with UM since roughly the beginning of 2017.

 

@Prot - The last part you mentioned is what I fear the most. I hope SM, and Primaris in particular, stay a fun to play army as opposed to becoming a dedicated entrance force for new players and useless to anyone with a higher caliber than that :/

 

Scouts are definitely good. I strongly believed since the codex came out that the majority of best units were very 'plain' units from the codex. All the people threatened by Primaris releases were reacting (or just worried) about something that never happened. 

 

If I'm being honest though, this is a bit of a drawback to me. And it still feels... weird.

 

I do think as GW pushes into major toy outlets, and a much wider audience that SM will become the humble middle ground. I mean if I am marketing this stuff, Space Marines are the gateway drug. The other armies have to have some pretty cool stuff to get you deeper into the line.

 

(I remember a while ago when GW went crazy on Necrons the first time and I was told it was because the line just didn't sell no matter what they did with the rules. I would say that was a successful experiment by GW as the amount of 'crons at tournaments became more than I've ever seen before.)

 

ill put my one dimensional foot in here and agree that scouts are excellent in this edition IMHO.

scout bikes are especially good, o special weapons, but sheer weight of fire combined with a good stratagem for mortal wounds.

I had thought on put power fists on them, but I feel combi melta is better, especially as we can fall back, do mortals with stratagem and then still fire our weapons.

 

- I've never been a -huge- fan of bikes in the game (aesthetically speaking) so I have no idea how good Scout bikes are. I actually can't recall anyone outside of Raven Guard players using them. Are they that strong?

 

Maybe I am missing it but as far as I can tell no other force has a unit as game changing in utility as the humble space marine scouts.

 

 

They are that good at controlling space in the first turn. 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know if I agree with this. As codexes come out it is actually almost a rule that a cheap, utilitarian unit becomes a backbone. We can go as far back as the Index and point to something as simple as the Conscript as the best example of 'game changing'. 3 out of the top 5 Nova Open armies were conscript spam... not SM scout spam. That unit is truly game changing in my opinion.

 

The humble Ork Boy is a phenominal purchase. A 160 Ork boy list is a true tournament contender.... wait til other codexes come out. I think we are going to see this happen with Nids too (although to be fair a lot of Nid players have figured out their codex too).

 

 

 

We should resist the urge to go oooo shiney and focus on the best ways to use the tools we already have.

 

So this is just my take.... BUT I've been saying this since the codex released. The vanilla marine, the vanilla force is almost always a better option aside from a few 'shining' lights (Helblasters), but this is the problem. (let's put Guilliman aside for a second for obvious reasons...)

 

Primaris Chaplain = Too pricey

Primaris Apothecary= Vanilla one is a better bargain

Primaris Ancient = same as above.

Primaris Libby =... actually he's just a bad choice. Tiggy is the superior choice, and a vanilla libby for the cheap option.

Primaris Lt = Win! (Until a model comes out for vanilla)

 

That's HQ's. The big damage dealers are almost exclusively vanilla. I have been playing these guys for a loooong time. Heck I even like the vanilla Landraider better than the Primaris Repulsor. I like the standard dreads/contemptors over the Redemptors. 

 

So I went whole hog painting this stuff up like crazy (see my sig for proof!). It's been largely mediocre. In fact you could say GW should be applauded for being so loyal to its consumer base in this case, BUT all that Primaris stuff will certainly draw people into the hobby. 

 

So I don't think Shiny is a factor at all. It's smoke and mirrors. A force of Ultra's with scouts, Calgar, vanilla terimes, marines, razorbacks, etc will (at this time) give you more bang for the buck (literally).

 

That's just my opinion. 

 

The store is so overloaded with Marine players I am working on AdMech because I've come to realize all the store events are loaded with marine players probably more so than I've ever seen. So I think the big plan is working as intended. 

[TrexPushups]

Speaking from my Primaris perspective again, one simple change could turn around the entire boat in my opinion. Give Primaris access to the Armoury. Allow me to customize sergeants and HQs with melee weapons and so forth. They either went over board with their whole WYSIWYG policy, which they only inforced on SM for some weird reason, or they are indeed planning to turn Primaris into a beginner army and thus making it unappealing for literally anyone else.

Definitely something that would help.

 

For example I love the load out of the "Birthday" primaris captain. It should be a general option because a cheapish character with a powerfist and 5 attacks is good enough for the game it seems but not as a general release?

 

There is one other change they could make in an errata to instant boost the power of the marine codex, they could let any infantry(possibly bikes too) use the +1 to wound stratagem instead of just stern guard.

 

This would make every primaris unit more powerful.

 

As far as us making due I think we should take a look at a unit that I don't see in a lot of lists but is actually amazing ever since the codex dropped their points cost: Hellblasters.

 

The volume of fire combined with ap -4 means they are the same cost as a four lascannon 5 man devastator squad and just as capable of killing a rhino or other t7 vehicle. If they get within 15 inches they can destroy 2. They just need re-rell support from either a captain:chapter master & a LT. In a pinch the scions of Guilliman strategem plus LT will do the job as well. The best part is that they can do this while moving and from 30" away. So we can hide them turn 1 without losing accuracy and that second wounds means they are twice as resilient to mortal wounds and things like twinlinked assault cannons.

 

Inceptors: yes they are expensive and fragile but they give me an excelleant reserve unit I can use to ensure I get linebreaker & a way to kill pesky cheap objective holders & a last ditch possibility of doing mortal wounds via their charge. There aren't many other units that can fulfill that role for this cost and still have solid mobility after they drop.

 

Intercessors are the only real duds but I use them because I love the models and they still manage to serve the basic function of rifleman. The 1 point auxiliary grenade launcher takes some of the sting of not getting special or heavy weapons access since 30" frag or krack grenades help clear things like cultists or help vs death guard, bikes and other multi-wound or t5-6 targets. It isn't a missile launcher but it stays accurate on the move.