Competitiveness of the Ultramarines several Codex on...

[TrexPushups]

@Prot the primaris Librarian costs the exact same as the regular librarian but comes with an extra wound and attack.

 

That extra wound is very valuable as it can keep you alive when you perils thus saving the spell and your nearby troops. Only downside is reduced transport options and lack of jump pack & bike options.

 

In this era of mortal wound spam I think we would do well to note that at 10 points per wound intercessors are cheaper per wound than scouts. If you are happy without the extra deployment options reivers are the cheapest power armor wound in the codex coming in at 9 points with a solid gun and a cool morale debuff.

 

Also I like the primaris ancient better than the regular for the extra wound. He is too important and there are enough snipers or area effect mortal wounds that a 5th wound is worth the 6 extra points.

[Prot]

@Prot the primaris Librarian costs the exact same as the regular librarian but comes with an extra wound and attack.

 

 

 

I realize that. I still think it's wasteful... and your downsides are... significant and the reverse could be said: For less points a regular libby looses a wound and can ride in a transport. 

 

Overall, like I said, just my opinion. But I haven't seen anything to change it yet. Day one thoughts are still the truth (for me). Go vanilla. 

[Frater Cornelius]

But vanilla Marines just look hideous by comparison. I know that I could use Primaris as vanilla Marines, but tournaments around here sue you if your base is slightly off. No chance here. I guess this is an impasse that will ultimately push me out of the hobby. I do not want to jump armies yet again, but I also refuse to play an intro army with no depth or options, neither do I want to play an aging army that will most likely never see a model update again.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Not sure what is going on here.  Madness has descended on my brothers!

I don't think Astra Millitarum is particularly diverse on the table. Wedge of infantry and tanks in support, all hanging back and shooting because their tanks and weapons do better that way. Gun lines with different paint essentially

If you want to be pedantic, every army is just infantry and tanks in support. :P

 

I get what you're saying (and the most common IG list will be some infantry, some tanks, and some artillery) and you're not even entirely wrong.  But a Catachan mechanized company will play nothing like a Cadian gunline.  A mob of Valhallan conscripts and artillery, will be very different from the Vostroyan version.  Mordian Air Cav and outflanking Tallarn Russes are night and day.  Will Guard players move away from the "best" version into more esoteric playstyles?  I don't know.  Maybe not.  But no codex that we've seen is so amazingly diverse with the same models.  No Russ will be the same, no artillery, nor infantry. 

Conscripts are still good...but Bullgryn screens are feasible, deadly, and rock hard.  What about Crusader screens?  2++ models with power swords.

 

I think that the neutering of Pods and removal of Formations have robbed SM of flavour. Say what you want about how broken and bad both of those things were for the game, and for the most part I will agree, but noone can deny that they made Marines interesting.

Now that those things are gone, things are more tame but also bland. Primaris players got hit even harder, because the big boys are even less diverse than their already borderline bland brothers.

I agree that Astra is a better designed book, but I disagree that the army is more interesting. They are mainly just shooty blobs or shooty tanks. Marines have the potential to be far more, if not for the hamstringing of certain units and making characters that support gunlines OP.

Marines do lack flavor.  And the loss of their delivery systems that aren't Rhinos is part of that.  As for lack of interest, it's possible the army simply doesn't interest you.  There is far more room to explore options that don't sacrifice effectiveness.

 

Maybe I am missing it but as far as I can tell no other force has a unit as game changing in utility as the humble space marine scouts.

3 very cheap units not only fills out half a brigade or a full battalion but due to their deployment rules they shut down all board jammers, all deepstrike alpha strikes, and provide forward deployed objective grabbers. Neither Ravenguard nor alpha legion style tricks work either.

They are that good at controlling space in the first turn. 

With the hellfire stratagem they even have the option to deal mortal wounds.

...

We should resist the urge to go oooo shiney and focus on the best ways to use the tools we already have.

Scout Sentinels?  They are just as good at controlling space and just as sturdy (or moreso) than scouts.  They don't have Hellfire Shells and can't fill troop slots.  But, yeah, they're awesome.

 

It's not that Space Marines are bad...it's that they've become rigid.  the older choices are rarely efficient enough to use (they'll never be IG efficient, I mean relatively speaking).  Primaris marines are shockingly bland...they are locked into being a permanent great choice (Hellblasters) or a permanent turd (Inceptors).  "Shiney" has nothing to do with it.  We know the best ways to use the codex and they just aren't up to some of the others.  Walk/drive into an AdMech gunline with their fast attack support and let me know how you do.  

 

Speaking from my Primaris perspective again, one simple change could turn around the entire boat in my opinion. Give Primaris access to the Armoury. Allow me to customize sergeants and HQs with melee weapons and so forth. They either went over board with their whole WYSIWYG policy, which they only inforced on SM for some weird reason, or they are indeed planning to turn Primaris into a beginner army and thus making it unappealing for literally anyone else.

It bears remembering that the Primaris line is not complete.  It's hard right now, but they are the future of the Space Marine line and there will be more coming.  Probably lots more.  I think the issue is one of cost vs utility in the wild.  Primaris were probably heavily playtested early in the revamp and I think it shows.  Gravis armor is an example of that.  It would have been amazing on the old wound table.  But T5 just isn't up to snuff now.  Yet it's priced as though it is.

 

 

Inceptors: yes they are expensive and fragile but they give me an excelleant reserve unit I can use to ensure I get linebreaker & a way to kill pesky cheap objective holders & a last ditch possibility of doing mortal wounds via their charge. There aren't many other units that can fulfill that role for this cost and still have solid mobility after they drop.

Intercessors are the only real duds but I use them because I love the models and they still manage to serve the basic function of rifleman. The 1 point auxiliary grenade launcher takes some of the sting of not getting special or heavy weapons access since 30" frag or krack grenades help clear things like cultists or help vs death guard, bikes and other multi-wound or t5-6 targets. It isn't a missile launcher but it stays accurate on the move.

 

I can't find a use for Inceptors.  They need to be 50-100 points cheaper.  They are priced like heavy hitters, but they are skirmishers.  We have other models that can do that for far less.

 

Intercessors, OTOH, are great and you are provably wrong.  They are brutally points efficient.  105 points buys you 10 space marine wounds, a surprisingly useful grenade launcher, a reasonable amount of AP -1 firepower, and 3 power sword attacks.  They suffer when faced with good AP and/or multi damage wounds, but Intercessors in cover take dedicated power to dig out. 

 

I do not want to jump armies yet again, but I also refuse to play an intro army with no depth or options, neither do I want to play an aging army that will most likely never see a model update again.

We're not there yet.  More Primaris are coming.  Lots more.  But GW needs to get all the dexes out the door first. 

[TrexPushups]

Scout sentinels are not as good st controlling space as scouts because they move after scouts have already set up and alpha legion and Raven guard have used their stratagems.

 

Scouts are he best due to the timing of their rule.

 

Glad to hear the positive review of intercessors as I am using 3 units to fill out theorhed 3 spots in my brigade. Sadly without the powersword but I am hopeful they perform well at 101 points for rifles and an aux grenade launcher.

Edited October 4, 2017 by TrexPushups

[Captain Idaho]

I just don't think Primaris Marines are competitive and worthwhile. Or varied enough in playstyle. That's part of the problem. We got a bunch of new units, most of which aren't as good as other choices in our Codex and they all play as gun line or variants of.

 

I mean, how are we supposed to get excited about Intercessors? They're just bolter armed Marines for goodness sake!

 

So things don't feel, well, new. Or decisive. We're just using the same old units we've always had.

 

Now, if we want to be competitive, talking from a non-Primaris point of view, we need to embrace our Troops choices. Tactical squads with combi weapons and special weapons are now fearsome, especially as their Bolters can hurt anything now. Jump out of a Rhino and kill targets.

 

Hell, I've even used Grav Cannons and Heavy Bolters on the move, scored hits and damaged important targets with them.

 

Older edition logic told us Tactical Marines were rubbish. This is no longer the case.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I suppose a Sternguard heavy list surrounding Calgar (I'd use artificer armour Calgar, even though he's 35 points more and doesn't halve damage) could be interesting. Two heavy weapons plus special bolters in five man squads. Give them Razorbacks for the additional firepower... although that's still more gunline like than I like.

[Frater Cornelius]

@Brother Captain Ed - I do not buy tbe argument, that Primaris are incomplete and will get better. The boxes are out and they include no customization. Sure, they may get more models, but I have a strong feeling that new releases will also be deprived of options. What do you suggest will happen? They release a new book that suddenly allows usbto equip Primaris Sergeants? That would take the release of an upgrade sprue, at which point they could've just included it into the box. I see no plausible reason to make Primaris as they are now if they were not meant to become like that in the long run, catered to new players, and thus deprived of any options and thus interesting customizations.

[Ishagu]

Primaris are fine, lack of customisation doesn't actually hurt them. It's just having units for very specific functions like other armies do.

 

The Intercessors and Hellblasters are ok pointed, but the Inceptors are far too costly.

[Captain Idaho]

Primaris aren't winning any tournaments that's for sure...

 

Thing is, I wouldn't care about winning a tournament with them but the new units we got were lacklustre. A squad armed with Bolters, or plasma guns? Whoopdi-do. A squad of slightly easier to kill Centurions with weaker firepower? No thanks. An expensive squad of S4 close combat attacks? Why bother. Expensive dual heavy Bolters? Go cheap in Devastator squads or Centurions or whatever.

 

And don't get me started on the Redemptor. It's another pill box unit because it can't move and fire well.

 

The Repulsor doesn't even register on my radar.

 

Primaris Marines just don't cut it. No competitive army in the game looks at Primaris Marines and thinks "oh no this is going to be tough". With multi wound weapons everywhere most people look at them as a smaller Marine army with limited options.

 

And because we got Primaris Marines, people look at our Codex and say "look you got loads of new stuff".

 

As a Marines player who doesn't want to replace my army and dislikes the scale creep, I'm left with nothing new. I have no problems with the fluff and people can play whatever style they want, but my reason is sound. My army is uniform and new and I'm not wasting my money.

[crazyterran]

The problem for us - for any this edition is that allied armies got even easier to make, and the penalty for running allied armies is almost non existent. After all, from a competitive point of view, why would you take 5 scouts for 55 when you can have 20 conscripts for 60?

 

Most of our most efficient units are vehicles, and thus dont benefit from Chapter Tactics. What compares points wise to the Twin

AC Razorback in our army for anti infantry/light vehicles? The Predator is probably our best Lascannon platform, though the

Mortis Contemptor might give it a run for its (and the added benefit of CT) money if you use FW.

 

Lets face it, nobody started marines to run a tank army.

 

Unfortunately, the higher competitive armies for UM are quite boring - Razorback spam, Hellblaster spam, Guilliman in all of our lists. A Demi Company style list, something flavourful, wouldnt stand a chance in the alpha strike potential of this edition.

 

Of course, im sure everyone has varying degrees of success with a variety of lists, these are just my observations of the meta so far.

[Stoic Raptor]

Because Scouts don't have lasguns and a t-shirt?  They're identical to Marines with a slightly worse save and better deployment.  If you're using Scouts as bubble wrap I can see why you'd think Conscripts are a better option. :D

 

Aside from that I agree with what you said.

[Prot]

The problem for us - for any this edition is that allied armies got even easier to make, and the penalty for running allied armies is almost non existent. After all, from a competitive point of view, why would you take 5 scouts for 55 when you can have 20 conscripts for 60?

 

 

 

Unfortunately, the higher competitive armies for UM are quite boring - Razorback spam, Hellblaster spam, Guilliman in all of our lists. A Demi Company style list, something flavourful, wouldnt stand a chance in the alpha strike potential of this edition.

 

Of course, im sure everyone has varying degrees of success with a variety of lists, these are just my observations of the meta so far.

 

- Well Allies is a different story. I think moreso it's a case of some units are so bloody good, they become -too good- if taken out of their original codex. Celestine for example...She's too easy to abuse yet so potent and cheap that she sees a lot of play time. This is something I agree GW has to work on. Their head design guy said right on WHTV that they looked to kill this kind of allie issue but they left a significant crack in the door.

 

- As far as Competitive UM being boring.... well I only use tournaments as examples to show us what is viewed as an abusable unit. But I wouldn't recommend people play like this all the time. There is no sense of story, or narrative. It's about moving pieces with rules, and maximizing undercosted/overpowered units to your best advantage. This is fine for Tournament players who go for 3 colours and a winning bracket. I admit I do it myself once in a while. But I confess when I playtest for something like an ITC event... I start with enthusiasm and by the time it's over I really start to dislike playing the game.

 

All that being said I've come to believe that 90% of these competitive armies are incredibly boring, usually monochromatic, and are typically very repetitive to play. So it's not just Ultra. I used Conscripts as an example but I have to ask people to be honest here... have you ever played against a 100 or so Conscript/parking lot army? It is by far one of the most boring 40K games you will ever play. Effective? Hell yes, but if that was every day 40K for me, I would have checked out years ago.

 

- The view on Primaris is very personal (appearance and lore wise). That's why I was reluctant to get into this conversation. I took them on because I have painted so many marines.... and for those that don't know I sold about 2,500 points to MiniWargaming for their battle reports. So when Primaris came out I was in heaven.... until I really got to play/build them. IMHO, Primaris are a hobbiest's army first, and a player's army second.

 

- Ultramarines. This is a funny one. For all of 7th any time I looked at an ITC event and I'd see guys running "Blue" White Scars, it just sickened me a bit. EVERY ONE was White Scars in 7th. To my credit I never, ever left Ultra for greener pastures during the White Scars hay day. And I used to get all sorts of ribbing, teasing, and dare I say 'hate' for playing Ultra. I have literally put up with people at the store telling me why they hate Ultramarines while I'm playing games.

 

Now? The one person who nagged at me the most (one time I actually told him to step away from me because I was playing a game. lol ) He shows up with his "Black Templar" Ultramarines. What a joke. So many of these hardcore Ultra haters have Black Guilliman, Red Guilliman, Gold Guilliman. So I guess I get the last laugh there (for now).

[Frater Cornelius]

 

[...]

 

- The view on Primaris is very personal (appearance and lore wise). That's why I was reluctant to get into this conversation. I took them on because I have painted so many marines.... and for those that don't know I sold about 2,500 points to MiniWargaming for their battle reports. So when Primaris came out I was in heaven.... until I really got to play/build them. IMHO, Primaris are a hobbiest's army first, and a player's army second.

 

[...]

 

Therein lies my problem. I love fluffy games, even though I am more on the competitive side. I need my casual games with themed lists to not die of burn-out. But the problem is that I draw a lot of enjoyment from playing and thinking/writing about fluff. I do not draw nearly the same amount of enjoyment from building and painting. Hence the biggest selling point of Primaris is lost to me. Only the fact that they look better than midget Marines is what I care about. But boy are they boring to play, even in narrative games. My primary way of prevent burn-out is hamstrung because of them being a collectors army (aka baby's first wargaming army), but also visually the only SM army I would want to play Oo

[Captain Idaho]

I think that's where GW errored here. There's nothing particularly new in the Primaris. They're just bigger versions of classic Marines.

 

And subjective appreciation for the models aside (I don't like these bigger Marines myself as I prefer 28mm scale and this is certainly a lot larger than that) we have just the same old models being built. We already have bolter Marines, plasma Marines, Centurions and jump pack troops.

 

Regardless, the fact Primaris bring little to the table other choices don't bring harder just means those of us who chose Primaris Marines are hamstrung.

 

I'm happy with my army performance though. They are powerful and tough enough on the table to oppose most lists.

 

I think the only real problems we have in a take all comers environment are Knight armies, Astra Millitarum tank gun lines and Ynnari cheese mongers. That and those character lists but then I reckon most tournaments will hammer those monkeys soon enough.

 

In my gaming group, however, my Ultramarines are doing very well. I've played a couple competitive armies and won so it's going okay.

[Ishagu]

Prot describes something I find funny. The amount of vitriol and hatred against Ultras, the mockery even I get at my local from time to time.
Now all those power gamer who don't even know the lore are all playing various colours of Ultramarines.

 

The thing is, I will now be playing Primaris ahead of normal Marines in all but a tournament environment simply because the models are so nice.

 

My next Project will be Astra Militarum to keep things interesting.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Ishagu

[crazyterran]

Yep, I'm in the same boat for everything but Primaris marines and selling the army as Prot. Stuck with Ultramarines regardless of the flavour of the month, tried to make it work (I own any flavour of Grav Centurion in full squads).

 

I used to be the only UM player in the local store back in the Ward days, I heard some :cuss about how awful I was for playing the Mary Sue poster boys.

 

i always give a hard time to people when I see blood angels as white scars or Imperial Fists being run as Ultramarines. In good fun, mind you, but...

[MeltaRange]

For the people who don't like the Primaris Marines on the table, or find them "bland", I'm curious in what capacity you're using them and in what lists.  I've been building mine in a crazy variety of ways just to try it out and it's been a fun journey. (I have been using a lot of proxies but keep painting new units all the time as well.  I also use a custom chapter so I can play with random tactics)

 

I've done some crazy stuff like using 6x5 Intercessors & 6x5 Hellblasters w/ the assault version of their guns (+ buffing HQs and Ancients) using White Scars tactics and that same list with the Rapid Fire version of the guns with Iron Hands.  I've done 2 Repulsors filled with 9 Intercessors each (plus Cpt, plus Lt) using Ultramarine tactics so I can try to stuff 40+ wounds of space marines right in their face turn 2 and not have to worry about being tied up in combat.  I've done another version featuring 2 Repulsors with 15 Hellblasters, a Capt in Gravis, Lt, and Ancient.  I'm working on a list with Raven Guard + Centurion Devs w/Las+Miss + Stalker Intercessors and a lot of Cata Terminators; and another list that uses Crimson Fists (2x Battallion) w/ Pedro + Chaplain Dreadnought + 2 Lt and 8x5 Intercessors all with Power Swords.

 

I guess my meta is not like the super competitive uber-min-max type you might see in yours, but I do think that with some imagination, Primaris marines can be interesting too!

[TrexPushups]

I'm struggling to get my nova marines to tabletop standard for a nov 11th tournament.

 

So far I have 5 intecessors painted which means I have the following left to paint & tons aren't even assembled yet.

 

10 more intercessors

13 hellblasters

3 inceptors

2 attack bikes

15 scouts

P LT

P Ancient

P librarian

2 dreadnoughts

P Captain with powerfist and plasma pistol(not bought yet as store Birthday hasn't happened yet)

 

With the quartered paint scheme it feels overwhelming and I am not even bothering to do highlight steps until the entire army tabletop.

[Captain Idaho]

What I don't like about the concept Primaris Marines is simply size compared to my existing collection and they're just bolter and plasma Marines or copies of Centurions.

 

On the table, the lack of special, combi and Heavy Weapons makes Intercessors quite limited in offensive prowas. Defensively they die just as easily as classic Marines to many armies thanks to so many weapons doing multiple damage.

 

They lack a cheap transport and cost a wedge of points.

 

However, I can see taking 2 full units as a core of a list as okay. You really need more special and heavy weapons but filling the front line with bodies can frustrate opponents.

 

I'm not really using Primaris because I've found that I need the weapons you get from Tactical Marines, transport options and what have you.

[Frater Cornelius]

There we have the issue of lack of customization yet again. I hope GW reads this... Ah, who am I kidding. This army is doomed to be a kiddy army.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Captain Idaho]

I must confess I did presume that Hellblasters would be a get you by unit until new special weapons came out so I was surprised we saw them as a unit.

[Prot]

There we have the issue of lack of customization yet again. I hope GW reads this... Ah, who am I kidding. This army is doomed to be a kiddy army.

I think they've been that army for a while it just seems more deliberate now. I always enjoyed that title though. When a new player comes in and sees me playing Ultramarines.....honestly modesty aside I can't tell you how many times this happens, and it makes me feel good. And sometimes it's a younger guy and he sees my Guilliman and mocks his own 'hardware store blue ' Ultramarines, I always take a minute and answer questions and offer some basic advice.

 

I really enjoy that.

 

Sometimes a player 'grows' out of Ultramarines and I see them spinning the wheel every month chasing the pot of gold only to end up with Rainbow Chapter. I also enjoy that. lol.

 

And there I am, still showing up with my "starter" army,.. and I let the negative junk just fall off of me. At the end of the day the marine codex in its entirety is perfectly functional.

 

This past edition has just been especially hard on me because the store campaign was flooded with ( what I started to call) Primer-aris Marines. It just sucked playing 20000 point games with 20 marine players vs 5 Chaos dudes bringing anything they wanted.

 

As a side note in my main play groups (away from the store) where we really mix it up between campaign style and ITC stuff, I am the only marine player!

[Lord Blackwood]

[quote name="Prot" post="4903408" timestamp="1507207371

Now? The one person who nagged at me the most (one time I actually told him to step away from me because I was playing a game. lol ) He shows up with his "Black Templar" Ultramarines. What a joke. So many of these hardcore Ultra haters have Black Guilliman, Red Guilliman, Gold Guilliman. So I guess I get the last laugh there (for now).

My charcoal grey gulliman and I are offended.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Lord Blackwood

[Prot]

Sorry I don't see a Guilliman in that picture.

 

And there's no need to be offended. But if you hated on Ultra's for years, and then showed up with that army once the new codex was released... well shame on you. 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Prot