Competitiveness of the Ultramarines several Codex on...

[Stoic Raptor]

Maybe some of the people who hated on Ultras for years are playing them now because, for the first time, the Codex actually shows why they're the moat powerful Chapter.  Let's be fair, previous Codices didn't do them much justice.  They were just the default, vanilla option.

Fluff's all well and good, but knowing the lore doesn't win games and all the tales of glory in the world don't change the fact that this is a game, after all, and people enjoy winning more than losing.

I'd suggest it's better to be welcoming to players who probably just got sick of seeing their chapters marginalized in favor of the common denominator.  When you can't even get transfers for your Chapter because UM is all that comes in the box, some people get turned off.  Shaming them doesn't help.

[Captain Idaho]

There's never an excuse for hating on a faction of fictional soldiers regardless of your favourite faction not being as well represented.

 

Anyway...

 

I just got a solid victory against Necrons. I took a balanced list with plenty of elites choices (balanced because my list had a bit of everything designed to work well together).

 

Got some good complements from a friend who is a really competetive player regarding my list.

 

I'm finding Ultramarines are working really well when utilised as a combined arms force with firepower, speed and fighting capacity all in attendance.

 

Crucially though, it's having some numbers with it. A Tactical squad is still dangerous even if reduced to a couple models thanks to combi and special weapon combinations. It means you maintain teeth even after suffering losses.

[Toxichobbit]

Maybe some of the people who hated on Ultras for years are playing them now because, for the first time, the Codex actually shows why they're the moat powerful Chapter.  Let's be fair, previous Codices didn't do them much justice.  They were just the default, vanilla option.

Fluff's all well and good, but knowing the lore doesn't win games and all the tales of glory in the world don't change the fact that this is a game, after all, and people enjoy winning more than losing.

I'd suggest it's better to be welcoming to players who probably just got sick of seeing their chapters marginalized in favor of the common denominator.  When you can't even get transfers for your Chapter because UM is all that comes in the box, some people get turned off.  Shaming them doesn't help.

 

There's a difference between being turned off by GWs choice of transfers and insulting another player or their army (which is what has happened to several posters in this thread). The first is fine and understandable, the other is unacceptable and shame, at the very least, is what anyone doing that should get.

 

There's never an excuse for hating on a faction of fictional soldiers regardless of your favourite faction not being as well represented.

 

 

There's always an excuse for hating a faction of fictional soldiers. Do we ourselves not hate the heretic and xenos? We're all different after all, we don't all have to like or dislike the same thing. However, what is inexcusable is projecting your hatred onto another player or his/her models. In other words, I don't need you to agree with my opinions on Ultramarines, but I do expect you to respect my choice to play them and not be a jerk about it.

 

Sorry for adding to the off topic. I don't really have anything useful to add to Ultramarine competitiveness cos I'm way to casual to care nowadays .

[Prot]

Well I still play both sides of the coin. I love casual, but enjoy competitive. This is just personal but I don't know if I could personally hop into the most competitive of environments with my Ultramarines without a crazy reroll Guilliman aura.

 

I've been pleasantly surprised, or should I say impressed to see Deathguard with Mortarion beating Ultramarines in such a scenario. I do think if the Ultramarines player takes Guilliman but plays a very diverse list with deep strikers, etc, then it's probably a bit of a waste in points- reroll to hit and to wound...its so strong, why water it down with 40% of your list not taking advantage of it.

 

I just got a solid victory against Necrons. I took a balanced list with plenty of elites choices (balanced because my list had a bit of everything designed to work well together).

Got some good complements from a friend who is a really competetive player regarding my list.

I'm finding Ultramarines are working really well when utilised as a combined arms force with firepower, speed and fighting capacity all in attendance.

Crucially though, it's having some numbers with it. A Tactical squad is still dangerous even if reduced to a couple models thanks to combi and special weapon combinations. It means you maintain teeth even after suffering losses.

Congrats. I consider Crons to be one of the stronger Index armies. I think when they get their codex to be right back up there with IG.

 

What sort of list was it? Were the elites mostly Termies? One list I was working on before my Primaris experimentation was a large firebase that dropped in with Calgar at the centre. He actually helps Inceptors a lot, even though they will die next turn. ;)

 

For my Primaris tactical type troops I am currently building 10 Reivers with the Bolter type weapon. This gives me a similar deep striking role that I think is essential with new Astra and of course the Renegade FW lists I am facing now.

[Captain Idaho]

My list was as follows;

 

Battalion

 

Captain - plasma pistol, Relic Blade and Sanctic Halo

 

Lieutenant - chainsword and mastercrafted bolter

 

Sternguard - x8, all standard. Sergeant with lightning claw and special issue bolter

 

Rhino

 

Vanguard Veteran squad - x10 all with jump packs, 3 Storm Shields and chainswords, 3 dual chainswords, 4 dual lightning claws

 

Tactical squad - full strength, Grav Cannon, plasma gun and combi plasma

 

Tactical squad - full strength, heavy bolter, plasma gun and combi plasma

 

Tactical squad - 5 man, combi plasma and plasma gun.

 

Devastator squad - x6, 4 missile launchers

 

Vanguard

 

Cataphractii Captain - Relic Blade and Combi plasma

 

Cataphractii Terminators - x5

 

Contemptor Dreadnought - Kheres assault cannon

 

Venerable Dreadnought - twin Lascannons and missile Launcher

The army is troops heavy but I haven't had problems so far with just 3 vehicles. Perhaps that's because Marines are difficult to kill without AP-3?

 

The Sanctic Halo Captain goes with the Sternguard in the Rhino.

 

Unfortunately the Vanguard only killed a single Destroyer before 10 Immortals rapid fired and got 16 hits and 14 wounds. I failed 10 saves and they all died. Otherwise the game would have been over even quicker.

 

That's 40K though.

 

Anyway, I have no illusions of my abilities to take on new Astra Millitarum. Sure my competetive player friend took the list I wiped out against Astra Millitarum and wiped them out, but it could be a little bit of paper rock scissors there.

 

I'd have a go though.

 

The armies I would struggle against would be Ynnari (because Eldar are broken in every edition), gun lines that can take down my attacking elements quickly and character cheese using a Primarch and 10 Culexus Assassins etc.

 

Incidentally, I recommend anyone going to a tournament to take a Culexus. It will equal the playing field against just about everyone except Necrons, Tau and some armies like mine that don't care about taking Smite because guns are better. ;)

 

Seriously, imagine him at the front of the army taking all those Smites and laughing, causing perils on a double 1, 3 and 4 thanks to -2 modifier.

[Frater Cornelius]

How about 3 Culexi? Overkill?

[Captain Idaho]

Well it depends if you want your name to be mud or not ;)

 

Besides I quite like my CPs.

 

I suspect most tournaments will add limitations as the year comes to an end. Limits like how many detachments you can have, whether the Command or Flyer detachments can be utilised etc. So more than 1 is unlikely a good investment long term.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well it depends if you want your name to be mud or not

 

Besides I quite like my CPs.

 

I suspect most tournaments will add limitations as the year comes to an end. Limits like how many detachments you can have, whether the Command or Flyer detachments can be utilised etc. So more than 1 is unlikely a good investment long term.

 

Well, I was thinking to supplement an UM army, potentially a Guilliman army, with Celestine + 3 Culexi. I wouldn't even think about using that without my opponent's consent and even then I would be hesitant, because most have no idea how bad one can break the game. But there are certain tournaments that are meant to be competitive and everything is fair game there. Sure, a lot of neckbeards, but at least it is a good challenge ;)

[greatcrusade08]

I like to think most armies are feasible in this edition, its why I like it, even my scouts look good on paper. time will tell competition wise though.

Some friends and I have decided to enter tournaments next year, my scouts will be hitting the tables for games around xmas in preparation.

[Prot]

My list was as follows;

 

Battalion

 

Captain - plasma pistol, Relic Blade and Sanctic Halo

 

Lieutenant - chainsword and mastercrafted bolter

 

Sternguard - x8, all standard. Sergeant with lightning claw and special issue bolter

 

Rhino

 

Vanguard Veteran squad - x10 all with jump packs, 3 Storm Shields and chainswords, 3 dual chainswords, 4 dual lightning claws

 

Tactical squad - full strength, Grav Cannon, plasma gun and combi plasma

 

Tactical squad - full strength, heavy bolter, plasma gun and combi plasma

 

Tactical squad - 5 man, combi plasma and plasma gun.

 

Devastator squad - x6, 4 missile launchers

 

Vanguard

 

Cataphractii Captain - Relic Blade and Combi plasma

 

Cataphractii Terminators - x5

 

Contemptor Dreadnought - Kheres assault cannon

 

Venerable Dreadnought - twin Lascannons and missile Launcher

 

 

 

I like the list. It is something to me how full tactical squads are doing well for you. To be honest even before my "Primaris phase" I was never using full Tactical squads. I did however quickly grow to love Missile Devs, Cataphractii termies, and the Contemptor with Kheres is still my favourite dread.(maybe just for the move/assault/shoot combo with some survivability).

 

The one thing I wonder about is the Vanguard. How often have you used them, and what kind of mileage are you getting out of them?

 

 

The Sanctic Halo Captain goes with the Sternguard in the Rhino.

 

 

Seriously, imagine him at the front of the army taking all those Smites and laughing, causing perils on a double 1, 3 and 4 thanks to -2 modifier.

 

 

- I love the Sanctic Halo. I use it on my Primaris Captains.

 

- I tried a few games with the Culexus but stopped using him a while ago. I wasn't getting the mileage out of him. He was eventually replaced with Tigurius for more denials, buffs, and I love the ability to make it harder for people to hit certain units. Also my favorite power is to remove invuln saves. Plus I find it hard to get him into a list.

[Brother Captain Ed]

@Brother Captain Ed - I do not buy tbe argument, that Primaris are incomplete and will get better. The boxes are out and they include no customization. Sure, they may get more models, but I have a strong feeling that new releases will also be deprived of options. What do you suggest will happen? They release a new book that suddenly allows usbto equip Primaris Sergeants? That would take the release of an upgrade sprue, at which point they could've just included it into the box. I see no plausible reason to make Primaris as they are now if they were not meant to become like that in the long run, catered to new players, and thus deprived of any options and thus interesting customizations.

I am sorry to be blunt, brother, but this is naive to the point of foolishness.

 

Primaris marines aren't some "thing" that just sorta lives in the codex as a permutation of the faction.  Primaris marines ARE the faction.  They are the minority now, yes.  But they are the future.  They are the space marines.  It may not be for another couple editions but, sooner or later, the old model line will be gone and they will only have legacy rules, if at all.

 

So, no, I do not expect to wake up one morning and find I can put combi-weapons and missile launchers on my Intercessors. (Though, I wouldn't rule it out either.  It'd cause most of the players of the largest faction in the game to rush out and buy a new box of basic infantry.)  But there will be more models.  Many more.  Some, like the birthday captain, will add new options to old datasheets.  (You are crazy if you think those rules won't be made available to whole player base.)  Others will simply be radically new.  New tanks, new fliers, new Cawl-designed weapons teams, etc.  We have no real terminator equivalent, nor any sort of veteran at all, really.  Make no mistake, the entire faction will be resdesigned and replaced from the ground up.

 

Will it be a starter faction?  Maybe.  But I don't think that's the case now.  It's just stuck between two worlds: the old and the Primaris.  But Space Marines are the most popular, most profitable, and most recognizable part of 40k.  Primaris marines are the future of that part.  It may take a while, but, sooner or later, Primaris marines will have tons of options.  There's no other possible result that promises the same economic return to GW. 

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like Primaris to have some more esoteric gear to boost their variance but not clash with "mundane" combis etc.

[Ishagu]

Primaris are indeed the future.

Use this time to gradually start adding them to your collection so that you're ready to make the transition when it happens.

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe. I got all the models I need right now.

[Frater Cornelius]

Primaris are indeed the future.

Use this time to gradually start adding them to your collection so that you're ready to make the transition when it happens.

 

Well, the major question that I have right now is... a second Redemptor or Repulsor :D

 

By the way, I have recovered from my little rant about Primaris and the state of Marines. I realized that my thoughts went far astray and I forgot a certain something. It is a bit of a personal issue, so I won't bother anyone with it, but I just wanted to apologize for the wave of negativity ;)

[Prot]

I appreciate your recovery! We all have or moments. I know Primaris isn't perfect, but I truly believe it will come around, in time.

 

About your conundrum.... I play dual Redemptors a few times... its s a little tough. I always split weapons but really I think competitively I should go dual HOG. The problem is to make them good requires resources. I may be doing it wrong but I've tried single and dual tech marines and it hardly seems worth using any of them. Maybe it's my bad luck.

 

I too have considered a second Repulsor with HOG plus Las talon. ( my current one is dual las). But the cost points wise is so high! I love experimenting with other units I don't know if it's a good idea.

[Captain Idaho]

Ah I forgot to answer your earlier question, Prot.

 

I am still in need of additional trials for the Vanguard. They were quick which I loved but my opponent lucked out and scored 14 wounding hits that I failed all saves for.

 

However, I think they helped anyway. 10 Immortals and 15 Necron Warriors is going to hurt and they drew attention away from the Captain and the Cataphractii who killed them all in the end.

 

Few more games should be enough.

[Tamiel]

I don't want Primaris marines to be the future, because that means I will have to re-buy my entire army a few years down the line.

Old marines must remain relevant and have up-to-date rules that are treated as a valid part of the game (as opposed to getting the "legacy" treatment). As someone who doesn't want to re-buy his whole army, being treated as a legacy army would really turn me off, and I know plenty of other marine players who share this sentiment.

Then again, I don't expect GW to care about marine players who don't want to re-buy their army.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Tamiel

[beefeb]

Ok my 3 armies i collect....UM, Guard and AM so i am a very happy bunny with the release schedule order for codexs.

 

I havent read the guard dex yet but skimming over it my initial impressions are favourable.

 

UM...RG is everything i would expect. Potential game winner....appropriate points cost....reasonable limitations.

 

AM are brilliant with the codex knights added.

 

Gameswise there seems decent balance levels. Im mostly on the positive wins wise with ultras versus CSM and DG but some very tight games. Im well on the win side with AM but i run mars list so cawl...kastelans...vanguards and knight makes nice fluffy all round list. Guard...im a treadhead. No games yet.

 

8th...several months and several codeces in seems very good.

[Stoic Raptor]

I had the same experience against Vanguard in my last game.  A squad landed near my Intercessors on Deep Strike and most of them were dead before they could finish the charge.  After the first round, I Fell Back and wiped out the rest.

[Captain Idaho]

Seems Vanguard really need multiple threats alongside them for target saturation. But I fancy they'll do well as a solid assault element, especially if held in reserve until turn 3 so you've got to grips with the enemy first.

 

On that basis, calling them Vanguard seems a little ironic. :d

[greatcrusade08]

perhaps they do better with a different chapter (and therefore rules), like raven guard or white scars??

[Stoic Raptor]

I'm sure that strike-and-fade Chapters like those would see better performance from them.  Once upon a time, I was tempted to model up some Mk6 jump assault squads as Raven Guard, just because I think the look suits them.  Never got a chance to finish or play them though.

[Captain Idaho]

Raven Guard probably work best simply because of the -1 to hit at range. However, that is heresy. The blood of the 13th runs through my veins.

 

I think I can get them to work. I have experience making Honour Guard work so I'll make these guys work!

 

Regarding my experience; things die against Necrons. Had the Immortals got those rolls against anything else it would have been curtains. If they didn't cop it, then the Terminators would have instead and then the Vanguard would have rolled up the Necrons line I suspect.

[Daigo Cannon]

With the latest codex releases, I'm just worry. Chapter tactics apply only to infantry, but AM, Eldar, etc... clearly states "Tactics/Doctrine" for their vehicles, marines are being left behind, as most of our vehicles will truly benefit from our chapter tactics. At his point I believe marines codex was the first as the only thing they did was to convert 7th ED rules into stratagems and that was all, not focusing marines into the new 8th edition style. Needing 2 other predators, vindicators to use an stratagems is idiotic.