Competitiveness of the Ultramarines several Codex on...

[MeltaRange]

Since Ultramarines won Heat 1 at the 40k GT, I think we can safety say that the codex is still "competitive"

[Schlitzaf]

So I am a Black Templar player, and I just wanted to say. Sense 5th Edition, while I never would play the Boys in Blue, they were mechanically speaking one of my favorite chapters. Essentially being Faux-Mongolian with hit and run tactics. I cannot answer the title thread question but reading through this thread, I just wanted to say as non-Ultramarine, I try to avoid deriding you guys, because “First Kid’s Army” or poster boys, I honestly find it one of the mechanically cooler SM armies.

 

Other armies get super buffs or something you have fallback and shoot. It encourages a fluidity in army movement. That demonstrates the core concept of Ultra flexibility. The very concepts of combat squading mid-game is another demonstration of such a concept. While admittedly any Marines can, I just want to contrast Crusaders/Grey Hunters/CSM with that. Those three unit despite being better tactical squads lack a flexibility of Tacticals. Grey Hunters can only Firefight. Crusaders while can 5 Man MSU, Heavy/Spec/Spec, if we run 10+ we can never combat squad and thus unable to adapt. CSM are similar to both Crusaders and Hunters. In that they choose what they are gonna do in army construction not deployment.

 

I think it’s cool, UM tactic essentially gives a ton of flexibility for the army. Which is to my understand supposed to be a Codex Compliant chapters strength over Non-Compliant. Your stratagem being exceptionally generic is another example but best used with the squad most meant to demonstrate flexibility of Compliants Marines. Sorry for derailing, I just get annoyed when I see folks deriding another army. Especially one as honestly tactical interesting as Ultras. (Your Warlord trait is another fine example of that).

[Prot]

Since Ultramarines won Heat 1 at the 40k GT, I think we can safety say that the codex is still "competitive"

 

Yea I think it's still too early to say anything. I wouldn't imagine the codex would become 'noncompetitive' in the next year, however it could be the same old, same old when Ynarri, etc start rocking codexes.

 

Ultra's may have won heat one, but Sisters could have easily taken the whole thing. The big shocker to was the validity of non-Primarch marines seemingly doing very well.  (Raven Guard)

 

Also that Celestine... what a game changer.. right from 7th into 8th.

 

Astra in about a month would be interesting to see.

[Ishagu]

I do think it's annoying that all other armies have traits that apply to everything, but Marines are limited to Dreads and Infantry.

 

It's why I rate the Repulsor - it behaves like an Ultramarine :-D

 

On another note, I can't wait for that new Grav Tank from Forgeworld. It may well be banned in popular tournament formats if the power level is too high, however.

[Frater Cornelius]

On the topic of UM competitiveness, the community page blabbers something about an UM list winning a (the?) GT, so there's that. Yes, it did have Guilliman and Razorbacks, but according to the article Primaris were well represented and there was an SM in second place, so I wonder if he brought Primaris. Standard of the act on 3+ when killed was popular they say.

[Captain Idaho]

I found it amusing how they pointed out there were plenty of Primaris Marines there. Almost as if they read our conversation about Primaris Marines being less competetive... :d

 

Though the winner had nary a whisper of any Primaris in it which WAS telling.

[Frater Cornelius]

I found it amusing how they pointed out there were plenty of Primaris Marines there. Almost as if they read our conversation about Primaris Marines being less competetive...

 

Though the winner had nary a whisper of any Primaris in it which WAS telling.

 

This is why I want to know how lists with Primaris placed. It may be the second place guy who brought plenty of those, we do not know. Having said that , the opposite can be true. Maybe they noticed that no Primaris placed well, so they made a point of telling us to not discourage Primaris players, while trying to fix them in Chapter Approved or whatever.

 

Though I have the suspicion that only one factor was relevant: Guilliman. If the list was UM with Guilliman, then it placed well, be it Primaris or nMarines. If the list did not have Guilliman or wasn't UM to begin with, it placed poorly, be it Primaris or nMarines.

 

I do not think that judging by the first place is all that telling without seeing the full picture. What made me a tad suspicious is them making a point of telling us about Primaris as opposed to giving us the actual lists or giving more precise info about it.

[Prot]

On the topic of UM competitiveness, the community page blabbers something about an UM list winning a (the?) GT, so there's that. Yes, it did have Guilliman and Razorbacks, but according to the article Primaris were well represented and there was an SM in second place, so I wonder if he brought Primaris. Standard of the act on 3+ when killed was popular they say.

 

That's interesting... I don't always read the comunitty page, I'm only going by games I saw. I also saw some really funny rules misses. I even questioned/confirmed some during the broadcasts.

 

I did see a strong Primaris list using Raven Guard which I can now see is potentially the strongest Primaris chapter tactic. (no need for any transports). Pre-positioning Aggressors is much stronger than waddling them up field.

 

But again we didn't see a heck of a lot of Astra (too new?) and Chaos is... chaos. lol

 

Admech has serious movement issues. I did see some good Deathguard stuff, but I don't know how they did in the end. Brimstone spam just seemed to fizzle in the big games.I saw Magnus die horribly a few times. Some people ran -very- anti-psyker armies to a degree that shocked me. (It felt... 7th edition-ish to me see this.)

 

 

 

 

I found it amusing how they pointed out there were plenty of Primaris Marines there. Almost as if they read our conversation about Primaris Marines being less competetive...

 

Though the winner had nary a whisper of any Primaris in it which WAS telling.

 

 

That's interesting to note. I have to read this article, but from what I saw there was a lot of Astartes. It looked like a day at my local store. And it makes sense that GW would push any successes of the Primaris for sales, and disproving naysayers, but we all know the 'big players' don't all have their books yet.. .and IG is so new still.

 

Also... the Relic. Ugh I just think this a horrid tournament scenario game. I hate it so much I just won't play it at all unless a friend really wants to test something for a tournament. The Celestine abuse in relic was pretty gross. (I'm glad those GW guys saw it in action though... it may actually get them to fix it.)

 

If the winning army is the one I'm thinking of, then I have to say it is -the- army I've recommended and told people to play since the 'dex dropped. It's Guilliman and Razorbacks with vanilla old school troops.  I love my Primaris but I'm not delusional about it. I'm no genius... not even close. I barely find my way home after work every day and often forget my cat's name. It's just a simple truth.  (all of it) :)

 

I found it amusing how they pointed out there were plenty of Primaris Marines there. Almost as if they read our conversation about Primaris Marines being less competetive...

 

Though the winner had nary a whisper of any Primaris in it which WAS telling.

 

This is why I want to know how lists with Primaris placed. It may be the second place guy who brought plenty of those, we do not know. Having said that , the opposite can be true. Maybe they noticed that no Primaris placed well, so they made a point of telling us to not discourage Primaris players, while trying to fix them in Chapter Approved or whatever.

 

Though I have the suspicion that only one factor was relevant: Guilliman. If the list was UM with Guilliman, then it placed well, be it Primaris or nMarines. If the list did not have Guilliman or wasn't UM to begin with, it placed poorly, be it Primaris or nMarines.

 

I do not think that judging by the first place is all that telling without seeing the full picture. What made me a tad suspicious is them making a point of telling us about Primaris as opposed to giving us the actual lists or giving more precise info about it.

 

 

Oh I do think one Primaris list looked strong.. I think it must have finished high up. It was almost pure Primaris with Raven Guard tactics.

 

I will say I did not see any strong lists running Repulsors.... not to say none existed, just I didn't see any at the top tables, but I could only ask/see so much. Maybe if someone was there they could answer this for us?

[MeltaRange]

Prot, do you know what the "strong" Primaris list was?

 

I've been using the Emperor's Standard and I personally have found it amazing in a variety of uses.

[Prot]

I don't know what the best one was, I only know what I saw because it reminded me a lot of my own Primaris list. It was inceptors, Hellblasters, Captain, Redemptors but NO Repulsor. 5-6 Aggressors.

 

The magic potion though was the infiltration. 

[Ishagu]

I think it was a large number of assault Hellblasters.

[Captain Idaho]

We do need more data in general mind. What sort of opponents did the Ultramarines face etc.

 

The games would have been Eternal War missions which I quite despise. Being playing them for multiple editions now and I feel like Maelstrom is much more balancing so people don't just build Kill Hammer lists.

 

Also... Ynarri armies?

[Frater Cornelius]

We do need more data in general mind. What sort of opponents did the Ultramarines face etc.

 

The games would have been Eternal War missions which I quite despise. Being playing them for multiple editions now and I feel like Maelstrom is much more balancing so people don't just build Kill Hammer lists.

 

Also... Ynarri armies?

 

I think this is the biggest point. What if the Primaris got a bad match-up, whereas the Tac list got super easy match-ups? The sample size is too small. What I want to see is what the UM Primaris lists looked like, if there were any, as well as info on other lists.

 

Still, if the Primaris did not do well, there is hope GW will push the line a bit.

[PaddyG]

Hey guys, I just recently got back from a friendly local tournament with a not-so-competitive ultamarines list and overall I was quite happy with how they performed! 1500 point lists, even brought some of my new shooty terminators this time!

 

The chapter tactics, while barely used this tournament, always have a bigger impact than I anticipate. Also, it allows my objective grabbing troops to keep moving along the battlefield into position to hold late game objectives without being hassled too much.

 

The Ultramarines warlord trait is hands down amazing. I had a total of 6 command points, and was using the chapter master stratagem every game. One game I got all 3 CP back (!) and the other two games I got 1 back each time. In one match I spent 12 (!) command points total. I struggle to find a better warlord trait generally, unless you were planning an entire list around one, such as storm of fire.

 

The Ultramarines stratagem (scions of guilleman) wasn't half bad, when used on double special weapon tactical squads. I thought of it as very underwhelming, but in the late game once you have spread out to capture objectives, it allows you to carry on with your re-rolls. My double melta squads especially loved this 1 CP stratagem!

 

All in all I'm proud to represent the Ultras wherever I go! These are just my latest impressions, and I'm still quite new to 40k so still have lots to learn as well. My friend who was playing primaris raven guard did quite well too, he was spending 5 CP every game just to deep strike his agressors and other units!

[Captain Idaho]

I suspect GW will push the line regardless.

 

I think Guilliman with Primaris is fairly solid. 2 full units of Intercessors marching up the table is a decent amount of shots at AP-1.

 

Outside of Guilliman it's a different story I feel. I'm all for a more spread out army lead by characters in each flash point. In those circumstances I like weapons thay are effective late game, particulary when you're spread out.

 

That's what I mean when I say I don't know if Intercessors are enough.

[Prot]

I thought some of the marine armies I saw not only had no Guilliman but also a lot of Primaris. What I don't like about a full Primaris army is the footprint. If you add Guilliman, it becomes that much smaller. There are some nasty deep strikers and as codexes appear I believe it will exacerbate the problem. ( I was she caked when Chaos came out. I thought for sure they would be able to pull that kind of threat out. But it didn't happen)

 

For now the small foot print makes it very difficult in my experience to insulate a Guilliman from spammy armies. My buddies 140 Orklist for one, and we'll see what 'tunnelling' spam Nids become capable of very shortly.

 

Guilliman is always going to be good but he's obviously not as auto take as he started out to be. I've seen him die to Death Hex and Mortarion or Magnus for insance ( with Tzeentch, not Thousand Sons of course). Also that crazy FW Death rainbow bird. ... insulation is still pretty big.

 

On match ups I think that's also a big factor as you guys mentioned. I mean the amount of Astartes based armies at that tournament might be the highest we will ever see. There was a ton of marine on marine action The true anti marine stuff is still hiding ...waiting for a few more Primaris sales before springing them ;)

 

I for one look forward to those days. The next heat will be very interesting.

[Captain Idaho]

Personally I hope for Tyranids and Orks to become a powerful entity on the table, specifically with high numbers of models.

 

The reason being it will encourage folk to use rapid fire but generally weaker weapons that our own armies are better to shrug off.

 

I actually think that could help Primaris big time.

 

***

 

What's the verdict on the Inceptors? Our of all the Primaris stuff they're the most useful to an army like mine. Of course the models don't do it for me but I could potentially convert some sort of flying Attack Bikers.

[Frater Cornelius]

Negative. They have very good output, especially when combined with re-rolls and their ability to position themselves. But their staying power is bad. You are paying 60ppm for a 2W T5 Marine. Unless they either get a point drop or increased staying power, they are not worth it.

 

Having said that, Prot seems to be the only one who actually tried to make it work. I never even considered them, so maybe I am talking out of my arse.

[Captain Idaho]

Ha well I've been now to talk out of mine...

 

Maybe it's a question of target saturation? Consider those 6 wounds suffer from the same problems as other such models like Attack Bikers and the like, maybe they can do well when they're supporting a Terminator squad and Vanguard assault force coming for the opponent?

 

Then I don't play the traditional competetive shooty list but a balanced, combined arms style.

[Frater Cornelius]

You have a point. I do rate attack bikes but not Inceptors. The latter have better mobility and output and only have one less wound.

 

You'll need to try. Maybe because Primaris lack other high profile deep strike models like TDA. I have tried them once against Necrons and they performed really well. However, since then new stuff has come into the army. Maybe they aren't bad but only are pushed out by more efficient stuff like Guilliman (6 dakka Inceptors cost as much as Guilliman...). It'd be nice to get some more hard data on those guys.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Prot]

Yes I still use Inceptors. I made a mistype above; I didn't see any Inceptors at the tournament coverage. (I'm sure they were there though). I meant to type Intercessors. Sorry about that. Also did not see any Repulsors on the top tables. (Again I'm sure there was some.)

 

I finally went to the community page so I know what you guys are talking about now.... that article:

 

Here are the top 15 armies from the first heat:

1. Space Marines
2. Space Marines
3. Chaos Daemons
4. Chaos
5. Imperium
6. Astra Militarum
7. Genestealer Cults
8. Chaos
9. Craftworlds
10. Ynnari
11. Astra Militarum
12. Astra Militarum
13. Imperium
14. Astra Militarum
15. Adeptus Ministorum

I see now the list I was thinking had a very good chance of wining is the list that won and Lawrence Baker was using it. He's a good player, and he really doesn't play soft lists in such an environment (nor should he) and again when I saw the list it's almost exactly how I'd play competitive UM right now. Lots of Razorbacks, cheap troops, Guilliman, assault cannons, and even when I play for fun, I strongly believe you can't beat Tigurius for pure utility. I said this to people trying to sell me on the Primaris Libby (he's absolutely horrible, and I bought him... ) Tigurius is MILES ahead of a generic Libby. In fact aside from Guililman he's my number one named character choice. (Next game I plan on using a Fire Raptor and I can't wait to have Tiggy point to it and say... you're -1 to hit him and another -1 because he's flying.)

 

Anyway, it just shows that while yes the little Primaris tricks I use (and we all use) like the mosh pit of Ancient fireballs and fancy new toys... you just can't beat solid, cheap firing Razorbacks backed by basic troops and Guilliman as the lynchpin to hold it together if say... Magnus gets there.

 

I saw this very list in action against Tzeentch Daemons. It was pretty brutal. I honestly don't know why some things happened in that game. It was typical though... lots of Brimstones, and Magnus.

 

Also keep in mind these are pure Eternal War missions. I personally rarely play these anymore, I don't hold it against anyone but with stuff like the pure 'Relic' sitting in there, it leads to some really lopsided games. (the coverage I saw of the Relic was really won by the player who simply stole the initiative. And elsewhere it seemed like a list with Celestine had a massive advantage: She isn't slain when she's killed the first time... huge difference.... her relocation ability is something they need to look at if they want to keep Relic).

 

I do commend them on the placement of the terrain which was often dense, and blocked LoS through mid table,

[crazyterran]

Need to make it like 6th where you cant move more than 6" with the relic.

 

Do we have an exact army list for the winning list?

[Frater Cornelius]

Yes. Check the Warhammer Community site. In short, Guilliman, Captain, Tiggy, 5 units of 5 Tacs with one LC each, 6 TLAC RB, SR with MM, TLC and Hurricanes.

 

8ed seems to have a big alpha strike problem. When looking at that list, I have a hard time knowing how to beat it with mine should I go second, but I have no doubt that I'll handle it well if I start. Going second seems like a death sentence. Not the fault of the armies though, but severe imbalances in the core ruleset.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Stoic Raptor]

Cover and LOS-blocking terrain.  Always deploy with the expectation that you will be going second.  I don't know if CP can be spent on the roll to go first (or seize the initiative) but if they can, it's a good time to spend it.

[crazyterran]

played my first game of 8th with my UM the other day, got introduced to Raven Guard hellblasters first turning my Dev Cents off the board. 10 appearing in rapid fire range hurt. Edited October 18, 2017 by crazyterran