Competitiveness of the Ultramarines several Codex on...

[Frater Cornelius]

Cover and LOS-blocking terrain. Always deploy with the expectation that you will be going second. I don't know if CP can be spent on the roll to go first (or seize the initiative) but if they can, it's a good time to spend it.

You can, even without a limit, meaning you can use the re-roll Stratagem as often as you like within the limit of the regular re-roll rules.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Prot]

Cover and LOS-blocking terrain.  Always deploy with the expectation that you will be going second.  I don't know if CP can be spent on the roll to go first (or seize the initiative) but if they can, it's a good time to spend it.

 

I thought by the current rules you could, but I've seen people say you can't re-roll the roll to see who goes first (but you can reroll the roll to seize). I don't know if this is an FAQ thing or what.

[Frater Cornelius]

There is a specific mention in the rules that Stratagems that are used prior to the first turn can be used repeatedly. This is at the very least a soft-confirmation that it is possible.

[Captain Idaho]

I do often deploy on the basis I am going 2nd. LoS blocking terrain is crucial on most boards.

 

I suspect the heavy shooting armies dominating many tournaments and gaming groups is because there is insufficient line of sight blocking. The Eternal War missions don't help either.

 

It's funny because players who use armies thay prefer open desert boards would contest it, but if you can see across the entire board without any points to block line of sight for any approach, the game us unbalanced.

 

But how are you going to stop your opponent reaching your gunline or claiming objectives? You'll have to move then. And maybe take a more balanced list. Only Tau can claim to have no assault troops and even they have Kroot.

 

"But my assault troops are rubbish and don't kill their points every game". Stop reading 4Chan for your tactical advice.

 

Easy as that.

 

Until the game has a philosophy of LoS blocking terrain as mandatory expectation table wide the game will still be dominated by Astra Millitarum tank lines.

[TrexPushups]

played my first game of 8th with my UM the other day, got introduced to Raven Guard hellblasters first turning my Dev Cents off the board. 10 appearing in rapid fire range hurt.

Three units of scouts with bolters or shotguns costs 165 points and if you deploy correctly with them and your other units you can completely prevent the ravenguard player from leaving their deployment zone with that stratagem.

[Prot]

There is a specific mention in the rules that Stratagems that are used prior to the first turn can be used repeatedly. This is at the very least a soft-confirmation that it is possible.

 

That is correct. This is how... Alpha Legion for example can infiltrate multiple units with one Strategem repeatedly. Since there is an underlying rule that says you can't re-roll a re-roll, that takes care of that issue. What I'm referring to is some people claiming a re-roll strat can't be used for who goes first (but apparently can be used for stealing the initiative). I don't know where this comes from.. is it an FAQ thing?

 

 

 

played my first game of 8th with my UM the other day, got introduced to Raven Guard hellblasters first turning my Dev Cents off the board. 10 appearing in rapid fire range hurt.

Three units of scouts with bolters or shotguns costs 165 points and if you deploy correctly with them and your other units you can completely prevent the ravenguard player from leaving their deployment zone with that stratagem.

 

 

This is what makes scouts so good.... it's also my argument against Primaris troops. It's one thing to have special weapons, but the scouts just allow you to increase your footprint, and outside of your zone to prevent this type of stuff. Don't forget about Auspex Scan too.

 

 

I do often deploy on the basis I am going 2nd. LoS blocking terrain is crucial on most boards.

 

I suspect the heavy shooting armies dominating many tournaments and gaming groups is because there is insufficient line of sight blocking. The Eternal War missions don't help either.

 

It's funny because players who use armies thay prefer open desert boards would contest it, but if you can see across the entire board without any points to block line of sight for any approach, the game us unbalanced.

 

But how are you going to stop your opponent reaching your gunline or claiming objectives? You'll have to move then. And maybe take a more balanced list. Only Tau can claim to have no assault troops and even they have Kroot.

 

"But my assault troops are rubbish and don't kill their points every game". Stop reading 4Chan for your tactical advice.

 

Easy as that.

 

Until the game has a philosophy of LoS blocking terrain as mandatory expectation table wide the game will still be dominated by Astra Millitarum tank lines.

 

 

 

This is a big conversation in certain areas of the forum right now. My primary group always play with lots of terrain... the game is boring otherwise imo.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Prot

[Captain Idaho]

Here's the elephant in the room...

 

...how are we finding taking on Guilliman?

 

Heresy I know but it we're ever playing competitively it's something we need to consider.

 

I don't much like my chances of killing him to be honest, But in a 2000pts game it's probably best to nuke everything around him 1st. Those units are benefiting from his aura abilities so taking them out is probably crucial to your opponent's plans.

 

Once the army is cut away it's probably best to him Guilliman with a couple rounds of fire.

 

Alternatively, perhaps we should counter charge him with a Terminator squad along side a Captain? Odds aren't great but Cataphractii Terminators or Storm Shields could finish up a job started in the shooting phase.

 

I'd actually prefer to take on Mortarion than Guilliman. Character rules plus a 3+ invulnerable save is horrible

[Frater Cornelius]

T1 Guilliman is only as good as his army. I would ignorr him until he is in melee range, to be fair.

 

Having said that, all three Primarchs are not fun to play against and are a major source of disbalance in the game.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I'd try to beat Guilliman the way I'd try to beat anything else big and scary.

 

Shoot it until it's close enough to assault, then assault it. If it works, great. If it doesn't, there's always the next time.

[Captain Idaho]

There'll be no shooting Guilliman whilst he marches up the table so that plan won't work.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I guess I'll have to kill the screening troops first.

 

Or drop troops in such a way that he's the closest target.

[crazyterran]

Kill him with your superior Guilliman, clearly!

[Toxichobbit]

Ally in 81 Ratlings. That'll do him a mischief*. Of course, you did just spend a significantly more than Guilliman on angry space hobbits, fart around getting them all into position and you'll probably loose half of them next turn when the opponent looks at them funny while Guilliman has a 50% chance of getting up again, but hey, at least at the end of your turn he's down, they aren't.

 

*and by that I mean they'll kill him in one shooting phase.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm a purist so that's out.

[Toxichobbit]

I'm a purist so that's out.

 

It wasn't a serious suggestion anyway. I mean who would buy 81 Ratlings?

[Prot]

I know someone running a ton of Ratlings just to kill of 'Aura-hammer'. But yea, not 81 of them. lol

 

I really think Magnus is a bad call for Thousand Sons. As each codex comes out, he's easier and easier to pluck out of the sky. I think the same thing will happen to Guilliman to some degree. Eldar 'mind war' for instance... stuff like that which is specifically built to target high value units with mortal wounds.(just as an example).

 

The Primaris stuff is still fun for me... I don't think everyone should go hardcore like me... mix in some of the gravy units from the codex to give yourself a chance. Even Forgeworld would add some spice to life as a tall marine with a boltrifle. ;)

 

The funny thing is when the true codex dropped there is some stuff I tried from Index to Codex that still really don't work... like Thunderfires, drop pods, etc.. very underwhelming. And the things that worked, work even better or still as good... like Stormravens, and Assault cannon Razors.

 

I still love my Centurions with Ancient + Guilliman. (Though I seem to be unique on liking mostly Las and bolter nips).

 

I'm very curious to see if future dexes will change this conversation... maybe in a few months Pods will be mandatory with IG? Maybe Eldar promote close combat more, or speed?

[MeltaRange]

Linebreaker Bombardment!

[Kallas]

@Prot: to be fair, Thousand Sons haven't had their Codex yet, so they could get their own version of Deathshroud bodyguards, or some Avatar-style resurrection Stratagem.

 

Might not too, but then if the TSons player isn't recognising the threats to Magnus and just flapping him up the table getting shot down constantly then, well... It's on them!

[Prot]

@Prot: to be fair, Thousand Sons haven't had their Codex yet, so they could get their own version of Deathshroud bodyguards, or some Avatar-style resurrection Stratagem.

 

Might not too, but then if the TSons player isn't recognising the threats to Magnus and just flapping him up the table getting shot down constantly then, well... It's on them!

 

I agree... I was just responding to the statement that the primarchs add too much imbalance.

 

I play Thousand Sons as my main Chaos army. In a Thousand Sons army I really don't think Magnus is a competitive choice unless you're playing someone completely ill equipped for a unit like that, but nowadays it's very easy. Remember LoS rules state if you can see any part of the model, you can target it. Astra is one army that can deal the wounds necessary, a few 'lucky' lascannons... heck I've had a Pred Annihilator get lucky and neuter him in a turn. For me he's not 'competitive' with Thousand Sons ( you will not see Magnus typically with Thousand Sons in a tournament, typically he's paired with Tzeentch for obvious reasons.)

 

I still love that Guilliman is 'hideable'. It makes sense though... these Daemon Primarchs are massive, and massively destructive.

 

Personally I think other armies will have ways of dealing with this over time. Like you said, so many codexes to go.

[Ishagu]

I feel that Guilliman's effect will be less and less overpowering over time.

 

Look at Guard now. I've started work on a force and the lists you can make are terrifying.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

You've given me a good idea for another topic...

[deadangel101]

You're not a "real Ultramarines player" if you don't paint them blue. You're not a "real Ultramarines player" if you weren't playing them when their rules sucked. I have to say I find this attitude extremely irritating. First of all, when Games Workshop pulls an idiotic stunt like only including Ultramarines transfers in Space Marine kits, then combine that with giving Ultramarines a rules set that is actually good, you are going to get Ultramarines armies in lots of different colors. Why? Because a lot of players don't want to paint their badass, genetically modified super-soldiers in a baby blue color scheme. Elitist attitudes and touting mediocre fluff as holy scripture is everything that is wrong with players of this game.

[crazyterran]

And that has to do with the topic because?

 

it seems to be a rant about Ultramarines, their players, and colour scheme, in the forum dedicated to the Ultramarines.

 

Unless you are referring to amusement/annoyance with people who hop between chapter rules based on power level, in which case the lamenting was usually sandwiched in as an aside to posts that were on topic.