How do you do it?

[Minigiant]

So this question comes in two parts

 

1. Now I have been working on my most recent chapter design for a couple weeks on here, it is an idea that has been festering for over a year. And I have recently been provided with very useful and fair criticism that has basically left it all as a wreckage. What you would see is 15000 word re-write, what I see is 45000 word re-write.

 

Now this is not the first time I have had an IA blown out of the water, in fact I must have written nearly 100000 words of garbage for this site by now. I have never properly finished an IA. I have gone about them from a myriad of angles and approaches, all have resulted in the same result, they do no stand up to any sort of scrutiny. I have read every suggested IA for examples of 'this is how you do it'

 

Now I have a unique position in the sense that I arrived as the 'Old guard' were leaving, it was near impossible to get anything past them for their high expectations then, and it is near impossible to get anything consistent and tangible without them.

 

What it feels like is if my IA are superficial, and barely scratch the surface. As soon as a seasoned reviewers asks a 'stiff' question, it is like a house of cards and falls down.

 

So I am asking how do you do it?

because I am certainly beginning to feel as if it is just beyond my reach of attainability

 

2. A caveat to this is, this is the Internet, and we do not know each other.

I cannot be the only person in this hobby that has no self-confidence, as soon as I take a knock it hurts. I received as I said useful and fair criticism, certainly wasnt anything personal, and it was tactful, however since reading it I have been in 'the dumps'.

 

This is not the first time, I have felt like this. I get attached to my creations and when they fall down I usually only ever want to send it all to the recycling can, and forget about it. Which is a shame because I do genuinely think I have had some pretty cool and original ideas.

 

Entwined in this is also the sense that what do you do with such feedback, the physical practicalities of repairing an IA is if not more tiring than writing it all in the first place.

 

So I am asking how do you deal emotionally with negative feedback (All feedback is good)?

And how do you go about incorporating it into your work?

 

Right now it honestly seems as if, unless I get it right first time, I am wasting my time.

 

[Sete]

I'm gonna drop a bit of sage advice grasshopper.

Don't try to get it right 1st time.

It's an idea, and it evolves, it's fluid like water, you have a destination, your final objective just work out the ways of the chapter according to the criticism.

 

For exampley Grey Talons.

I wanted to do a WS sucessor, close combat, with some Lusitanii tribe inspiration.

 

From that point I read about ancient Iberia, amd added ideas that I liked, dropped others, and let the idea evolve. Now I think I reached a good spot despite my god awfull writing and I'm happy with it. But it took some time. I dropped the IA for a time and came back some time later with a couple of ideas. Don't be discouraged, and don't feel obliged to make everyone like it. In the end it's your chapter, your vision of the hobby.

 

Not everyone likes SW, BA, BT, and not everyone will like your chapter.

 

And don't get it right 1st time, read the opinions and take them like that, opinions. And opinions are like :cusss. The choice is yours. And good luck!

Edited October 2, 2017 by Sete

[Mileposter]

I haven't read your particular IA in full (In all honesty, the numerous pages on it are daunting. >.>; ), so I'm offering these two pieces in a vacuum:

1) When starting up an idea, some people start with the "But" method, sometimes called the "With" method - the starting place for the idea is only one degree separated from something that already exists. "Codex Space Marines but hate Dorn", "White Scars with tanks", "Blood Ravens but Egyptian inspired", "Bagel with cream cheese", etc. This helps give a grounded point that you can start fleshing out from, and add deviations and new concepts in as their development makes sense.

2) When adding or altering a Chapter concept, whether during your development or as a result of criticism, make only one change at a time. Evaluate the whole after every change, how far that change will be felt, and whether that one change addresses other concerns already before changing more. Helps keep thigns from being overwhelming, keep changes from being knee-jerk reactions, and helps you evaluate those changes more organically.

Just my thoughts

Edited October 2, 2017 by Pentharian

[Kelborn]

Be sure that you are not alone, brother. I felt the same for countless times.

 

The only article, which was really not good was my first attempr of creating a CSM warband. It was kindly torn apart but that showed me its flaws. I abandoned it as I did not feel comfortable anymore.

 

I din't writw that much or even original articles. By now, I got about 3 finished ones, with one being revised completely and one being currently revised.

 

I was proud of both articles but time has past and after rereading them, they didn't felt right anymore.

 

Though I have received some c&c for both of them, it wasn't that much, resulting in me thinking that I've created trash. Those times were really depressing. I sometimes still feel like this, today.

 

But nowadays, I just continue to work on them. As long as they feel good to you, don't give up.

 

Those are your chapters. The Liber just wants to help. It is up to you if you see this help as usefull or not.

 

I'm sure that my Storm Riders, Phantom Blades and Imperial Sons wouls have to answer the same questions like your Denizens of the Deep.

 

Take it as a chance to see your chapter from a different pov and improve it, if you feel like it lacks something.

 

Don't give up. :)

Edited October 2, 2017 by Kelborn

[Minigiant]

I haven't read your particular IA in full (In all honesty, the numerous pages on it are daunting. >.>; ), so I'm offering these two pieces in a vacuum:

 It is all up to date on the first page.

 

2) When adding or altering a Chapter concept, whether during your development or as a result of criticism, make only one change at a time. Evaluate the whole after every change, how far that change will be felt, and whether that one change addresses other concerns already before changing more. Helps keep thigns from being overwhelming, keep changes from being knee-jerk reactions, and helps you evaluate those changes more organically.

 

I have been offered this advice before, this is why I am asking for advice again because for some reason I cannot get it to work for me. I am basically always left with two choices. Throw it away, or throw it away and write it again. I do not have the mental fortitude to re-write 45000 words, just to find another mistake, and to repeat the process.

 

There has to be a way people do this because I see them done. I just do not understand what they do differently

[Mileposter]

 

2) When adding or altering a Chapter concept, whether during your development or as a result of criticism, make only one change at a time. Evaluate the whole after every change, how far that change will be felt, and whether that one change addresses other concerns already before changing more. Helps keep thigns from being overwhelming, keep changes from being knee-jerk reactions, and helps you evaluate those changes more organically.

 

I have been offered this advice before, this is why I am asking for advice again because for some reason I cannot get it to work for me. I am basically always left with two choices. Throw it away, or throw it away and write it again. I do not have the mental fortitude to re-write 45000 words, just to find another mistake, and to repeat the process.

 

There has to be a way people do this because I see them done. I just do not understand what they do differently

 

Might I ask where this falls down for you? Could offer an alternative approach to help combat the mental block.

 

For myself, I combat the urge to toss it all by treating each segment or section as a completely separate project. That way I can still satisfy my "toss it all" urge by dropping a section and revisiting without having to get rid of the whole thing. For my Necrons, for example, I rewrote that "Awakening" section like 14 times. >.>;

[Qkhitai]

Perhaps there's a case of your doing too much too soon. Say you're trying to build that house of cards, but you rush through it without getting the balance right, it might just collapse if one card was a little wonky. So if one criticism or observation causes the whole IA to unravel, that says to me that you should focus on making smaller elements water tight; writing 1500 words patiently and critically, rather than 15000 words in a rush (although it is of course hard to stop when inspiration comes!). Like Pentharian said, treat smaller sections as self-contained projects, which can stand up on their own two feet without the rest. This stops everything from being interdependent, and from one wonky card causing the whole house to fall down.

 

I don't think any writer ever publishes a first draft of anything and then says "well, that's that" and wanders off to do something else. Drafting and editing should probably take up more of your time than actually writing, which is something we all have to learn and go through. In other words, saying that you will only be satisfied if you can get it right first time is setting an unrealistic standard for yourself - and a standard that most other writers don't hold themselves to. And it's obviously tough to have your work critiqued; no matter how well meaning, constructive criticism can still sting. I'm sure we could all do with building up a thicker skin sometimes. But you just need to take a step back, leave it a few days and come back to it with a fresh perspective. I think that emotional reaction - for want of a better phrase - may also be what fuels your belief that the whole thing has fallen apart or is garbage or needs to be re-written. Take a deep breath and clear your head a bit, and you'll probably realise that actually it's not as bad as you first feared! And, for the record, not every critique you receive is 'correct' or should be followed; you can turn around and just say "you know what, I've taken on board what you've said, but I think you're wrong". It's your project and your hobby; I'm sure nobody wants to ruin it for you, but also, at the end of the day, they can only ruin it for you if you let them - which is really just you ruining it for yourself. So come back swinging and don't give up!

Edited October 2, 2017 by Qkhitai

[Conn Eremon]

As someone who has had their first, most important DIY go through two separate, full rewrites because of feedback given, I get where you are right now. But at the end of the day, as hard as it is to hear and as hard as it is to do, your DIY ends up the stronger for it.

 

Clearly, you love the Denizens of the Deep. That's evident with how much work you've already put into them and what you still plan to do. So think of what's to be done as an improvement. Something you like is going to get better.

 

What I'd recommend is not to jump into rewriting the whole thing, but to just answer the questions posed. From the posts in thread, I know they don't have easy answers right now, but work on them. Think about them and write about them, or even just ask what the community thinks. Others who are participating in your thread might also have ideas or a different perspective. Once you've answered the questions to your satisfaction, you'll have pieces of the Denizens that you'll like more than what you already have.

 

At that point, you'll be wanting to rewrite the Denizens yourself to make those pieces fit.

[Olis]

As a general piece of advice, I'd like to say this: Your DIY doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be liked by everyone and not every detail will please everyone. Do the best you can, put the time in that you are willing to but, as the saying goes, try to get it "finished, not perfect". One of my own DIYs (Brotherhood of the Lion) Is one of the few that I have made that I can actually say is complete. Am I 100% happy with it? No. There's little things that probably need work. It also needs waaay more critique than it had at the time.

 

But... it doesn't weigh on me like my incomplete attempts do. It is at a point where should I suddenly (and inexplicably at this point in time) find myself unable to post on B&C any more for whatever reason, it can survive as it is. It's not the Mona Lisa. It certainly isn't my magnum opus. But it's workable. It's understandable and has a character of its own.

 

That all said, there are times when one seemingly mundane detail has a knock-on effect and you realise that there is much more work to do. I would advise making a framework for that task, using notes probably, and then take a break for a little. Not too long though. Days, probably. Just long enough for you to recharge, perhaps gather ideas and remember what it is you intend to do. The framework, hopefully, will help you pace yourself and signpost the salient points of the work you must do. 

 

And, of course, we are here to help you. If you find yourself at a point where you're stuck, reach out. I'm sure any one of us - Mod and Liberite alike - are happy to help you make something you'd be happy with. :)

[Minigiant]

Might I ask where this falls down for you? Could offer an alternative approach to help combat the mental block.

For myself, I combat the urge to toss it all by treating each segment or section as a completely separate project. That way I can still satisfy my "toss it all" urge by dropping a section and revisiting without having to get rid of the whole thing. For my Necrons, for example, I rewrote that "Awakening" section like 14 times. >.>;

 

 

The core tenant of my most recent attempt is so far off that nothing can be kept. Working in sections is just just a way of delaying. It doesnt matter if I am re-writing 20000 words across 10 sections or 100, I am still re-writing 20000 words. And a re-write in this case and all the attempts before equates to basically starting again

 

Perhaps there's a case of your doing too much too soon. Say you're trying to build that house of cards, but you rush through it without getting the balance right, it might just collapse if one card was a little wonky. So if one criticism or observation causes the whole IA to unravel, that says to me that you should focus on making smaller elements water tight; writing 1500 words patiently and critically, rather than 15000 words in a rush (although it is of course hard to stop when inspiration comes!).

 

I got carried away. There is no actual substance to my initial ideas

 

 

And, for the record, not every critique you receive is 'correct' or should be followed; you can turn around and just say "you know what, I've taken on board what you've said, but I think you're wrong". It's your project and your hobby; I'm sure nobody wants to ruin it for you, but also, at the end of the day, they can only ruin it for you if you let them - which is really just you ruining it for yourself. So come back swinging and don't give up!

 

I value this particular persons opinion highly. And I know what they say is great.

 

What I'd recommend is not to jump into rewriting the whole thing, but to just answer the questions posed. From the posts in thread, I know they don't have easy answers right now, but work on them. Think about them and write about them, or even just ask what the community thinks. Others who are participating in your thread might also have ideas or a different perspective. Once you've answered the questions to your satisfaction, you'll have pieces of the Denizens that you'll like more than what you already have.

 

I have no answers to them unfortunately.

 

As a general piece of advice, I'd like to say this: Your DIY doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be liked by everyone and not every detail will please everyone. Do the best you can, put the time in that you are willing to but, as the saying goes, try to get it "finished, not perfect". One of my own DIYs (Brotherhood of the Lion) Is one of the few that I have made that I can actually say is complete. Am I 100% happy with it? No. There's little things that probably need work. It also needs waaay more critique than it had at the time.

 

I really did/need this one to be perfect

 

And, of course, we are here to help you. If you find yourself at a point where you're stuck, reach out. I'm sure any one of us - Mod and Liberite alike - are happy to help you make something you'd be happy with.

 

Everyone here is always pretty great

[Conn Eremon]

 

What I'd recommend is not to jump into rewriting the whole thing, but to just answer the questions posed. From the posts in thread, I know they don't have easy answers right now, but work on them. Think about them and write about them, or even just ask what the community thinks. Others who are participating in your thread might also have ideas or a different perspective. Once you've answered the questions to your satisfaction, you'll have pieces of the Denizens that you'll like more than what you already have.

 

I have no answers to them unfortunately.

 

You have no answers for them currently, which is not the same thing. It will take work and thought, but it will be worth the effort. It sounds like you're on something of a downward spiral, convincing yourself that you can't, which I understand given how important to you it was to get it right. But sometimes it really can be just as easy as saying you can and starting.

 

And sometimes, it's just better to take a break. Maybe for a few days, maybe longer. You'll be able to give the project a set of fresh eyes to along with the fresh start.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I got carried away. There is no actual substance to my initial ideas

 

There IS actual substance to your initial ideas, but initial ideas sometimes contradict each other, forcing you to take the time to organize them. Don't be downhearted; it happens to even Games Workshop's own writers. Edited October 3, 2017 by Bjorn Firewalker

[Minigiant]

 

You have no answers for them currently, which is not the same thing. It will take work and thought, but it will be worth the effort. It sounds like you're on something of a downward spiral, convincing yourself that you can't, which I understand given how important to you it was to get it right. But sometimes it really can be just as easy as saying you can and starting.

 

And sometimes, it's just better to take a break. Maybe for a few days, maybe longer. You'll be able to give the project a set of fresh eyes to along with the fresh start.

 

 

I have actually had a positive realisation in the last hour. Something I should share because I have never seen it mentioned before. While I still dont have any answers, I know where to start.

 

It is often said the easiest way to create a chapter is to pick a real world soldier and exponentiate. Vikings = Space Woves Samurai = Space Samurai example. FOr that in the standard IA format is, establish 40k equivalent homeworld and go from there, easy. If you have an idea that is a follow on from some established canon, it is Origin. Then if it is an idea, a different world view then it is in the Chapters Cult and Belief System. It is okay to work backwards. Arguably establishing a soild foundation in the Chapter Cult and Belief System is the hardest which would explain why so many of my IA attempts fail

[Brother Tyler]

I would suggest that the reasons so many IA attempts fail are three-fold (not counting grammar/spelling/clarity of presentation):

The biggest problem I see is what I call "over-theming" (and GW is certainly quite guilty of this). This is where the author takes their concepts and slathers them all over the Chapter, so that the reader is basically slapped in the face with the theme, losing sight of the Chapter. The theme is basically brute force, without subtlety or nuance or sophistication. Often, the author is blind to this - they've simply gotten carried away in their enthusiasm. There are times when heavy theme works, but in my opinion, these are most often in cases where the author isn't trying to make a Chapter (or any other DIY organization) that fits in the game universe - so things like genre mashups (e.g., an all Mandalorian army, or Hello Kitty Space Marines). In general, I think the over-theming "problem" comes from the method of taking the inspiration and turning it into Space Marines. It's far better to take Space Marines and then add a few elements from the inspiration. There's a subtle difference there.

The second biggest problem I see is when an author tries to explain everything. I don't mean a presentation of the organization as a whole, necessarily, but when every little nuance and special element of the Chapter is explained, often in detail. The game is replete with little mysteries, so it's okay to leave some explanations incomplete or missing altogether. If an author has to give detailed explanations about lots of things, the idea is probably too complex or unrealistic to begin with. The IAs that I've seen work are those that need explanations for only a handful of things, and most of those require only moderate explanations, not overly-detailed rationales.

The third biggest problem I see is what we often call the "Mary Sue" problem, where the DIY Chapter is made out to be ultra special and in some way better than other Chapters. Hobbyists scoff at GW's own failures in this area (note the widespread derision for the Ultramarines by non-Ultramarines fans), and it is probably viewed as hubris for players to make their own DIYs into the Mary Sues over those that GW has provided. Each Chapter is special and unique in its own way, but it's a bad idea to present a DIY as somehow "better" than other Chapters. It's far better to simply make them different in subtle ways without going over the top.

And all three of those problems come together in the final presentation. While the IA format is a great format and highly recommended, it is not the only format. Sometimes, following the IA format is a pitfall because authors feel compelled to provide detailed explanations and give lots of text for each area. Sometimes, authors should present their DIYs in other ways. Your Denizens of the Deep Chapter, for example, might be easier/better to present as a third party study of the world, with the Chapter itself a kind of sidebar (it's important to emphasize the word "might" here).

As far as the creative process goes, there are probably as many different methods as there are DIYs. My own methods vary from DIY to DIY. Sometimes it starts with a color scheme, sometimes with a Chapter badge, sometimes with a defining moment in history, etc.

GW doesn't always provide us with fully developed Index Astartes articles on Chapters. Many Chapters have been presented using alternate methods, sometimes simply via story and anecdote, or even footnote. Despite this, there are (non-IA) Chapters that many find fascinating, even without detailed IA articles. Examples include the Celestial Lions and Emperor's Scythes. These are minor Chapters, to be sure, but they can be no less fascinating.

Here are links to my own finished DIYs:

• Order of the Faithful Sword (Adepta Sororitas Minor Order Militant)
• Venerators of Korumani/Angels of Veneration (a lost Chapter of the Unforgiven)
• Angels of Vigilance (my own taken on a minor Chapter)
• Nova Hawks (the Chapter I actually play on the tabletop)

Each of those DIYs is presented in a different manner, often with an Index Astartes article or similar format. The Angels of Veneration are notable in that they are presented more by in-universe anecdote and story (the article you see in the first post is a red herring of sorts - read the full linked discussion to see why). Despite the lack of detail on that Chapter, they are the most fascinating (to me). In most cases, each of the linked articles includes an explanation for my method (you might have to search through the discussions a bit, but they're there). Of note, I've tied the Order of the Faithful Sword, the Angels of Vigilance, and the Nova Hawks together in a very loose relationship (the Sisters and the Nova Hawks via the Abyssal Crusade, with Teriq Ausar from the Angels of Veneration figuring into the Nova Hawks' pivotal moment).

You can find plenty of other DIYs, some far better than my own, simply by searching around the B&C. If you want to see "finished" articles, I suggest trawling through the Tabula Astartes and Tabula Sororitas (and similar tabulae for other factions, found in their Resources topics pinned at the tops of their forums).

 

Ultimately, you shouldn't feel compelled to do what others tell you should be done. A DIY belongs solely to its creator, who is the only one that really has to live with it. Others may help in bringing those efforts to fruition, but they neither gain nor lose from the DIY. So don't worry too much about making the Denizens of the Deep what others want them to be unless you want them to be that thing, too. If it seems that others are asking/telling you to do too much, then figure out what work you want to put into them and just do that work. This is your labor of love, so make sure that the labor is worth the love.

[Ace Debonair]

I cannot be the only person in this hobby that has no self-confidence, as soon as I take a knock it hurts. I received as I said useful and fair criticism, certainly wasnt anything personal, and it was tactful, however since reading it I have been in 'the dumps'.

 

This is not the first time, I have felt like this. I get attached to my creations and when they fall down I usually only ever want to send it all to the recycling can, and forget about it. Which is a shame because I do genuinely think I have had some pretty cool and original ideas.

 

Entwined in this is also the sense that what do you do with such feedback, the physical practicalities of repairing an IA is if not more tiring than writing it all in the first place.

Believe me Brother, you are definitely not the only person here with no confidence in their skills.

Heck, I'm yet to properly finish a Chapter, and I've been here long enough to count as one of the Old Guard.

 

C&C is often the best and only way to improve a Chapter, but the process can be painful, especially if you're attached to an idea.

 

Generally what I do is keep all the stuff I've been working on, as it is, then create a copy of it where I adjust my Chapter according to whichever criticisms I've been given.

 

That way you're not throwing everything away - you still have your idea, as it was, and you also have your adjusted ideas. If the adjustments aren't to your taste, you've always got your existing stuff to fall back on.

 

 

What it feels like is if my IA are superficial, and barely scratch the surface. As soon as a seasoned reviewers asks a 'stiff' question, it is like a house of cards and falls down.

 

So I am asking how do you do it?

because I am certainly beginning to feel as if it is just beyond my reach of attainability

It's a lot of work and takes a lot of time, effort and rewrites.

Remember, everything that people suggest that you read is something that has been written, re-written and re-written again, perhaps dozens of times.

 

It's not a sprint, it's a marathon. Pace yourself. Take it slowly.

When given a big ol' pile of criticism, deal with one bit at a time, making changes one at a time and posting them up. If the changed bits garner no further C&C, move on to the next bit.

 

 

 

So I am asking how do you deal emotionally with negative feedback

Very badly.

 

But once I've had a good rant and got it out of my system I generally go along with it anyway, unless I feel like it's contradicting what I want from the Chapter.

 

 

Right now it honestly seems as if, unless I get it right first time, I am wasting my time.

I know that feel bro.

But the truth is, you're only wasting your time if you don't keep going.

 

Remember - marathon rather than a sprint. Small adjustments instead of grand rewrites. Break the big workloads down into smaller sections and don't feel like you have to do it all right now.

[Doctor Perils]

I think a lot of good suggestions have already come out of this thread :)

the most important message to keep in mind is to keep at it - it's always easier said then done, but try and keep up your motivation.

You also suggest how taking inspiration from real world history, and that is certainly a great source - however, don't discredit pop culture either: real vikings didn't really have horns on their helmet, but helmhorns definitely add a definite (if somewhat kitsch) menace to chaos space marines.

 

The way I generally go about this is to start from a basic theme, then make new building blocks that fill in the details - a bit like a weird jigsaw puzzle where you know the general outline but you have to paint each piece separately. If it turns out that piece doesn't really fit into the puzzle, just put it aside and try to slot it into another puzzle later on. The danger here as brother Tyler pointed out is overtheming, but with this method it can be easy enough to un slot that jigsaw piece and modify it. However, always keeping the general outline in mind will help you keep the whole coherent

 

Also, yes, I've always had confidence problems, so I know how it can be to want to simply chuck the whole thing out the window - try not to loose heart and only try to focus on a solution to a single problem at a time, not the whole picture

Edited October 4, 2017 by Lord Thørn

[Cpt_Reaper]

I've recently discovered a "quick start" method for Astartes Chapters and Guard Regiments...and I'm all about quick starts, shortcuts etc.

 

The Fantasy Flight Games rpgs had generators for these factions, allowing for quick generation of things like recruitment, homeworlds and combat styles.

 

I now use these, combined with a chosen influence (e.g. Dark Souls 3 Covenants) to quickly smash out a framework for a force.

 

Bake for 30 minutes, or until golden brown. Interior should be nice and fluffy, with a pleasing aroma and clear flavour.

[Minigiant]

Thank you everyone for your words. I have still been plugging away at my IA, didnt throw it in the bin.

 

Slower tan before but chugging away bit by bit. It has given me some time to reflect, and that has made me realise variables I had not once considered