CornishMike Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 What's our counter to hard hitting GK lists? Played in my first tournament on Friday (1000 pts), and he brought the following: 2 x dreadknight 3 x strike squads 1 x Grand Master Voldus... I bought 1 x 5 tac marines, 1 x 10 Assault Marines 1 x 5 DC Lemartes Mephiston 1 x 5 Vanguard Vets with hammers... Now, he did get real lucky with the scenario... We used the deck and we got: The deployment where I set up within 6 inches of a board edge, and he deployed mid table. The objective where there is one marker midfield, and whoever lands on it can move it around. You win if you control the objective The twist where all psychic rolls are +1... Now he would have won on scenario regardless of anything i did, because he started turn 1 with a strike squad on the objective, and ended his movement there, then used teleportation gate thing to transport thew whole unit to the back of the field during psychic phase... Every time I dropped in a unit close enough to maybe mess them up and steal the objective, he used his CP to use the chapter tactic that allows another gate teleport... Under those circumstances, there was no way on Baal I was going to get that marker... Nevertheless, even ignoring how he won, he was able to use those dreadknights to rip through my entire force on turn 1. DO we have a strong counter at low points levels to three nasty dreadknights? The list seems very very O/P... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340033-grey-knights/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Be the ONE and get 2 Imperial Knights... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340033-grey-knights/#findComment-4901014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are Verlo Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 The brutal truth is he brought an optimized list, while yours was a weaker take all commers list. Your list consits of few relatively expensive models? I know little of the gear you use. Take the ASM squad, was ith with jump packs? What gear did you give them. 10 stock ASM is a whole different game than 2x5 with plasma guns and plasma pistol, backed by a jump captain with a decent combi weapon. 5 VVs with TH is really expensive per T4 3+ wound. I am not being rude, just pointing out that you brought what seems to be a friendly list vs a tournament list Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340033-grey-knights/#findComment-4901019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CornishMike Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 Haven't taken any of your reply as rude Are, was a well worded response... I appreciate that I was using a list which was not 100% competitive... Unfortunately I have very few models left as I am climbing back in after I threw my toys out of the pram during 7th power creep :) Sadly I only have 1 unit of 10 ASM, and they are stock bolt pistol chainsword jumpers... I agree a couple of nice plasma pistols would have helped, the ASM were wiped out in one turn by the sheer mass of shooting his two knights put out. I also had a quad laz Predator I forgot to mention, which was designed to take out a little Mech (wasnt expecting 3 huge suits of doom)... That got targetted very quickly and ditn last long... To be fair, the Laz tank lasted 3 turns and whiffed every wound roll... for 1st 2 turns, I rolled at least 2 laz hits, and then rolled 1's to wound... When the tank was charged by the knights, I rolled 3 sixes on overwatch and followed them up by all 1's too... My main worry about GK was really that everything I owned (apart from Meph and tank) was ripped apart turn 1 (or the turn they dropped in) by a combo of knights and smite... Silverson 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340033-grey-knights/#findComment-4901034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riot Earp Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 3 Dreadknights on 1000 Points is verry hard to counter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340033-grey-knights/#findComment-4901037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CornishMike Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 If I was tailoring a list to beat them alone, I'd say that 1000pts would buy me three units of devvies with Laz, and a couple of vindicators... But then I would lose when I played the Orc hoarde list later in the day :( Aothaine 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340033-grey-knights/#findComment-4901043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are Verlo Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) My first games was limited by actual miniatures as well :-D If you can afford it, buy some plasma gun bits and arm the ASM with them. Those are unique BA and synergize well with a jump captain. You can build a captain easily with some cool bitz. In small games the jump captain and ASM is a good base. They can either start on the board if there is ample cover and los bocking or they can JPA from reserves. Captain with jp, combi-melta or combi-plas and perhaps a melee weapon if you want to overspend. 2x 5 asm with jp, 2x PG and plasma pistol at least 3 other units, so you can use JPA/reseves with the jumpers. My suggestion is a scout/tactical squad and a razorback (twin HF can be made or bought) This should leave some points for other units that also like to move around. O you can buy some devastators and hope that the opponent will be bussy with the jumpers and the razorback and wont be able to isolate and destroy the only unit still left in your DZ. Edit: spelling Edit: At this pointlevel flamer-Baals are quite good. Their damage output remains high even with battle damage and they can keep up with the jumpers and the razorback. The flamestorm is decent anti-tank and anti-monster. The risk is getting this close to monsters, but if you support it with jumpers and the captain it will do well. Edited October 2, 2017 by Are Verlo Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340033-grey-knights/#findComment-4901052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) Edit: At this point level flamer-Baals are quite good. Their damage output remains high even with battle damage and they can keep up with the jumpers and the razorback. The flamestorm is decent anti-tank and anti-monster. The risk is getting this close to monsters, but if you support it with jumpers and the captain it will do well. Their one of my favorites! But I'm a flamer junkie. Grey Knights are a tough bunch right now for sure. I am not sure how deployment or the objectives played out but always focus on objectives. It is really easy to get trapped into the "I have to kill you" approach to this game. Just remember it is not always necessary. Sometimes backing off and advancing to an objective is more important. In 1000 points I think it is actually easy to build an all-comers list if you have the $ or models. Playing with what you own is a little bit more difficult. I wouldn't take this game as anything but a learning experience for now. Build up experience playing games and figure out which style of game you enjoy the most and then build toward that end. @ 1000 points I would run something like this... Captain - Combi-Plasma (in with the Devs) Tac Squad x3 (5-man) - Bolters in Rhinos Preadator - Cannon + 2 lascannons Devastators - 4 Missile Launchers, cherub in Rhino Not sure how many more points would be left but I would add more Tac Squads with Rhinos if points allowed. Another option would be to run Primaris instead of the Tac Squads with Rhinos. They're a bit slower but way more resilient with the two wounds each and they have better bolters. Edited October 2, 2017 by Aothaine Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340033-grey-knights/#findComment-4901238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tychobi Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Knight spam is really just vehicle spam. You need big guns to take out multi wound models with high toughness. Lascannon and melta. I would avoid hand to hand with em. Well outside of hammernators Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340033-grey-knights/#findComment-4902413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are Verlo Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Games vs Knigts (2 of them) in 1000 pts battles are largely determined by the size of the battlefield. If you play on 4´x 4´ you will have to find a way to kill or severely damage the knights. On larger battlefields you can go for objectives. 2 knight armies are fairly easy to outscore in maelstrom. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340033-grey-knights/#findComment-4902528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Knight spam is really just vehicle spam. You need big guns to take out multi wound models with high toughness. Lascannon and melta. I would avoid hand to hand with em. Well outside of hammernators Agreed. Plasma-spam might do the trick as well provided you have a Captain nearby to reroll 1s so that you can overcharge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340033-grey-knights/#findComment-4902686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holier Than Thou Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) What's our counter to hard hitting GK lists? Played in my first tournament on Friday (1000 pts), and he brought the following: 2 x dreadknight 3 x strike squads 1 x Grand Master Voldus... I bought 1 x 5 tac marines, 1 x 10 Assault Marines 1 x 5 DC Lemartes Mephiston 1 x 5 Vanguard Vets with hammers... Now, he did get real lucky with the scenario... We used the deck and we got: The deployment where I set up within 6 inches of a board edge, and he deployed mid table. The objective where there is one marker midfield, and whoever lands on it can move it around. You win if you control the objective The twist where all psychic rolls are +1... Now he would have won on scenario regardless of anything i did, because he started turn 1 with a strike squad on the objective, and ended his movement there, then used teleportation gate thing to transport thew whole unit to the back of the field during psychic phase... Every time I dropped in a unit close enough to maybe mess them up and steal the objective, he used his CP to use the chapter tactic that allows another gate teleport... Under those circumstances, there was no way on Baal I was going to get that marker... Nevertheless, even ignoring how he won, he was able to use those dreadknights to rip through my entire force on turn 1. DO we have a strong counter at low points levels to three nasty dreadknights? The list seems very very O/P... Unless I'm missing something, it sounds like he (deliberately or not) cheated. In the Relic mission, a unit carrying the relic can't move more than 9" in any phase so he would have been limited to that as a max with his Gate. As for using his command point for an extra teleport, the only GK stratagems I think you may mean allow you to (a) cast an extra power, nothing that lets you cast a power that has already been cast (so no double-gate) or (b ) allows a unit that has already performed a shunt to do it again, however only Interceptor squads can shunt and he doesn't seem to have any of them in his list. Edited October 4, 2017 by Holier Than Thou Waking Dreamer 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340033-grey-knights/#findComment-4902734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CornishMike Posted October 6, 2017 Author Share Posted October 6, 2017 Hey holier... I don't think he was cheating... The mission was not Relic, it was a mission from the deck (i think it's called open war? You draw a deployment, a mission etc etc... The mission we drew is very much like relic, but isn't... I don't remember it mentioning max move (if it did, I cheated in my first game by having the assault squad whizzing it around at full speed lol). As for the extra teleport, I think he did use it to pull out an extra power, I think... Being new back to the game and having played GK only once, I wasnt sure of the mechanics, but the ref watching seemed to expect him to pull this stunt... I'm 100% confident he played to the rules. Unfortunately with this combo of mission and deployment, he was always going to win... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340033-grey-knights/#findComment-4903909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceril Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 DC are overpriced, 5 isn't enough anyway to sync with Lemartes Mephiston is slow, needs a delivery method. ASM are anti horde, mediocre. Best left on the shelf. Run them as JP company veterans with storm bolters or some form of plasma. Deep strike with a captain for great success. You lacked vehicles to cover & deliver your models. Most have been said, just confirming. You had a fun list, or as you said: took what you had access to. He had a more optimised list. Not much more needs saying. Try playing more tourney balanced missions too, NOVA or ITC. The deck sounds horribly unbalanced. Make sure terrain is plenty and blocking line of sight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340033-grey-knights/#findComment-4903925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I think it was mentioned above, but the main issue was that you took a balanced-ish list whereas his was more optimized as well as had access to a full set of rules including Stratagems. Besides, multiple NDKs at around 1000 is hard on many lists. As a point of reference, I played against a buddy who packed two NDKs and a NDKGM at 1250 on top of the usual stuff and it took an optimized Guilliman list to bring it down (we were practicing for a tournament). Things that worked well were overcharged Plasmas and tank-based LCs. You may want to have a look at Razorbacks, as GK struggle against T7+ at range with their Smites being limited and having no re-rolls to wound. Something as simple as 2 TLC Razorbacks with 5 Tacs each carrying a Plasma and Combi-Plasma with a Captain and Lieutenant can do some serious harm. Nothing particular Blood Angel-y about it, but most optimized lists at low point levels have to give up flavour. The BA Codex may open up more options though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340033-grey-knights/#findComment-4904516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkaniss Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 As mentioned before by other peeps I feel it's imported to repeat that you can't cast the same Psychic Power more than once - still, GK are potent in 8th. Difficult to counter at such low points, normally you'd place buffer units (like scouts) to try and keep your elite units safe from the charge. It's something I'm struggling with myself as the firepower and mobility (not to mention the psychic power and general deadliness of GK in melee) difficult to counter when I want to run 'traditional' BA lists. Though add to that our Index is competing with a new Codex as well. I'm going to experiment with Librarians to counter all the psychic stuff - allowing the GK a whole phase to muck about with where you have no counter isn't helpful Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340033-grey-knights/#findComment-4904689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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