Tactical Spam: Could it work?

[Aothaine]

Hey everyone!

 

So I was reading one of the lists posts and the user Fahlnor and he had a really interesting idea about how to use tactical marines. We all know we are not in the era of everything can wound everything. What I am wondering is what Tactical spam might be able to pull off.

 

If I remember correctly a bare bones tactical squad is 130 points for 10-man. Then you throw them in a drop pod. I don't remember the drop pod cost. But lets say you can get like four of these in 1000 points as long as the drop pods don't cost more than 120 points. When they drop they break into 8 5-man squads.

 

You then fill out the last two troop slots with 10-man tactical squads that will break into two 5-man squads. 

 

Then you can grab 2-3 preadators and some captains to intersperce throughout the tactical marines. Sure this will work a lot better with Ultramarines.. but could the idea work?

 

~57-58 tactical marines with bolters

4 drop pods

2-3 captains

2-3 predators for anti-tank

 

Just dropping the tacticals into rapid fire along gives you 80 bolter shots. Nothing to sneeze at. You should be able to wipe 2 units off the board with the alpha alone from the four tacticals. Then you have your tacticals in the back line rushing to objectives. 

 

What do you guys think? Could spamming bolter tacticals work?

Edited October 2, 2017 by Aothaine

[Brother Crimson]

Tactical marines are fun and useful in this edition. They have acess to heavy weapons and they help to unlock command points. However the bolter is still a weak  weapon. Your 80 bolter shots will kill about a 5 men squad of intercessor, less if the the target is in cover. 

 

A big use of tactical marines if your playing with ITC rules is that they are objective secured as they are troops. This means that they "win" contested objective if that objective is contested by non-troop unit. 

 

This has big impact on the game: lets say for instance that your opponent brings a squad of Vanguard Veteran close to an objective you control with a devastator and a tactical squad. If they choose destroy the devastator squad, they cannot control the objective as tactical squad have objective secured. This means they will be tempted to shoot the tactical squad in order to gain control of the objective.

 

"The Tactical Squad shall draw the enemy's fire, thus allowing the Devastator Squad to attack from a position of strength." 

[the jeske]

just because everything can wound everything is a thing, spaming bolter is not the most viable thing to do. If you want to use tacticals en mass, then put them in razobacks.

[durdle-durdle]

just because everything can wound everything is a thing, spaming bolter is not the most viable thing to do. If you want to use tacticals en mass, then put them in razobacks.

not that i disagree with you, but at that point, it's less tac spam and more or less razorspam.  Which isn't a terrible thing IMO, though it's somewhat boring, i feel, and better done by codex marines.  I don't feel like pursuing tactical spam is a great idea within the blood angels index, personally.  regular bolters are just kind of...meh.  And while they can take special/heavy/sgt weapons, I don't feel like it's especially more useful than, say, veterans, vanguard veterans, or some other thing like that.

 

but please, by all means, try it.  If it works out, let us all know, i'd love to hear about it in practice.

[Charlo]

Tacticals aren't as cheap and effective as you might think.

 

Since the dawn of time Tacticals & Marines have paid a lot of points for one thing: a 3+ save.

 

It used to be that the 3+ save protected you against 80% of threats that you might encounter.

 

This is no longer the case, with even a -1AP drastically reducing the survivability of the humble space marine.

 

Yet Tacticals still cost comparable points to what they always have.

 

In an age where every army doesn't need "Two Troops" as a bare minimum, and they are more vulnerable than ever, besides Obj Sec there isn't much reason to bring Tacticals.

 

Also you always want special weapons on them, they're just so good. Especially Plasma.

[the jeske]

Ok, I probably wasn't harsh enough. Tac spam with bolters does not work at all. There is problems with range[both getting your dudes within rapid fire and dealing with something outside of 24"], wounds per actual shots caused, huge problems with high T high W targets being spamed and fast moving swarm armies. And this is just vs "normal" lists, because vs something like a culexus build or flyer spam, you wouldn't be killing models in the opposing army on avarge.

 

ah, and you would also would be skew countered by some tier 2 or 3 lists, like 1ksons or DG for example.

 

I agree with you that razor BA are a worse version or a copy [depending how important G-man or chapter tactis are important to someone] it. Not a fun thing to happen, and am not happy  about it. And while someone can think that "new codex will fix it". I always worry that this doesn't seem to happen to codex without new models. CSM[yes I know] or GK feel a lot like index+relics/tactics[and in case of csm the legion tactics are clones of sm ones]. I worry that BA may end up as something like the new index + chapter tactic[lets say something that looks like WE legion tactic], because this means that good stuff may get better [as stacking of rules makes stuff better, sometimes by a lot] and the bad stuff, that doesn't really get much out of the extra rules, stays bad. And if tacs happen to be in group 2, you have a problem with a faction[like you know for csm right now, the worse CSM unit is... csm].

[Aothaine]

Really appreciate all of your replies! 

 

I might have needed to clarify it a little bit more. I meant take more tactical squads than take assault squads or veterans or sg etc. So taking tacticals to kill the infantry and have three preadtors to handle the bigger targets.

 

You all bring up valid points though. I just wonder sometimes how much anti-tank/MC is needed in an army and at what point does it become a hinderance.

[the jeske]

I think you may as well try playing BA primaris. Not saying it works great, but would work better then using bolter tacs.

[Aothaine]

I think you may as well try playing BA primaris. Not saying it works great, but would work better then using bolter tacs.

 

Yeah possibly. I was excited about the prospect of dropping forty tactical marines right in rapid fire range though. I'll have to see if I can gather enough proxies and run some tests to see how it might work out.

[Brother Crimson]

The main use of tactical (and scouts) is to get CP and Objective Secured. 

 

Then you equip them to help to fill the gaps in your army. The bolter is a weak weapon, it takes about 5 bolters in rapid fire range to kill a marine, the same amount of damage can be caused by a single heavy flamer or plama gun.

 

Their weapon selection is really the only thing that makes tactical special compared to a scout or intercessor. 

[Indefragable]

Tacticals best use is to die slowly on OBJ. Anything else is gravy. You can get away using them as cheap MSU for special weapons, but BA have “better” options for that with ASM, Company Vets, sternguard, etc...

 

Don’t let the fluff or power armor fool you...they are the pawns of our army. The only things that can really change that are killer chapter-tactic-equivalents, stratagems, or specific buffs. The issue is that most of the latter for us is, again, better served by other units: other units are either choppier or shootier, and scouts are scout-ier.

[Aothaine]

A sad day indeed. Ahh well it was just a thought.

[Schlitzaf]

I am a BT Player not a BA/Codex Marine, so take what I am about to say with that in mind. I use my Crusader Squads extensively in a variety of configurations and setups (currently liking 2 13 man Crusader Squads and 2 5 man Intercessor as my center, supported by variety of units). I prefer a melee configuration and use the army to such effect. I haven't had a game where I was disappointed by my Crusaders. So 80 Bolter shots, 50-60 hit. 25-30 wounds, and 8-10 failed saves. So only killed one squad of Marines? 

 

Well it took 80 Bolter Shots to kill 10 Marines! You have 40-50 of them. The thing about things like Devies and Vangaurd, if you take 3-4 Heavies. That 5 Man Squad is 150-165 points unless it HvyBolter Spam. You get 14 Marines. And those Lascannons/Missiles hit 3ish times. And killed 3 guys. 14 Marines at 24, hit 7-10 times, wound 4-5. Depending how you wish to round kill 1-2 guys. Vs Heavy Armor you'll obvouisly see the Lascannon/Missiles become more heavily armored. Once you start facing Armies like Orks and Gaurdsman, you're gonna appreciate those 14 Bolters over those 3-4 Heavy Weapons. Espacially sense once that Devi squad starts losing models even if that unit has missiles, its combat effectiveness goes down. 

 

Two 7 Man squad losing a Bolter Bro? Lost a Bolter Bro. And if you want to say "well that Leman Russ, how your tacticals gonna deal?" Well one is charge. Two combined arms. My Crusader and Intercessors, are supported by 2 Reivars, 3 Pony Squads, 2 Rattlings and Scions. Alongside two Biker Squads, and some Gaurdsman in the backfield. Bolter Bros are just that BoltBros. You can wound most things on 5. And as such always present a target. Tactical Spam can work, it just needs proper support. 

 

Don't use a nuke to clear out a building, when a grenade would be just fine. However sometimes that nuke to shoot that Godzilla that rose from the sea of Tokyo is required. Proper tool for the proper job. Tacticals are good at providing a solid firefight force in the center if supported by your toys. Once again however, given I am Black Templar and use Crusader Squads, I'm partly basing my experience with Crusaders on Tacticals here. As its the same principle, 'cheap' (by Marine Standards) bodies supported by a combined arms with for a proper saturation of firepower. 

[Indefragable]

I think BT are in a really good place now, especially considering Tacticals or Crusader squads.

 

First, BT can re-roll charges. While not the best ability for specifically for Tacs, it certainly helps.

 

Secondly, Crusader squads can have 20x bodies, kitted to be shooty, stabby, or any combination that pleases. They can also min/max with a special and heavy weapon in each squad. Further more, Neophytes (Scouts) provide brilliant ablative wounds: you can take a 3+(2+ in cover) save, but kill off a cheap 4+ Neophyte if the roll fails.

 

What Crusader squads do is make Troop choices incredibly hardy and pretty killy against other line troops that massed S4 will do work against. Especially when you add in buffing characters. It plays to the BT’s strength which is essentially Black Tide.

 

BA, in contrast and as we currently stand pre-Codex, are a particularly mobile army with special weapons on jump packs and flying 2+ armor saves. For us, our Troops serve more as static screens to hold the enemy in place or hold rear Obj. The anvil to the hammer of mobile units like Sang Guard, DC, Vets, Or ASM. For BT, Crusaders (Troops) are the hammer.

 

That’s not to knock on your post, Frater, but to add some context.

[tychobi]

Short answer.  No.  Sorry.

 

Long answer.  Really depends on your meta and what kind of gaming you are interested in.  Casual beer n pretzels basement games?  Would be a blast.  Competitive tournaments?  Can't imagine you would win much if at all.  Bolters have no penetration.  Drop pods cost too much for the flexibility they provide.  You want drop bolters go interceptors.  Or if you need ob sec scouts are better.  Waaaay better. The stated goal of quality anti infantry can be achieved for less points in a variety of ways. 

 

Final thought is why BA and not codex marines of some stripe for this strat?  I am a Blood Angel beta striker from way back but that archetype has been dragged out back and executed.  RIP Furioso's from heaven. . . . I will never forget thee.

[Quixus]

Did I miss something? is ObSec still a thing in the official rules?

[Panzer]

Did I miss something? is ObSec still a thing in the official rules?

Yes you missed something and no it isn't. :D

 

All new Codexes released have give their Troop units ObSec as long as it's a Adeptus Astartes/whatever-sub-faction-keyword detachment and as long as your army is battleforged. Also with the Chapter approved book we'll get around christmas, every Index will get that as well.

[BloodTzar]

The way it may work is MSU used as LasCan platfrom with RBs all over the place with Bufftain / Girllyman. Basically creating SM gun line that IG might just do as good if not even better. The indirect nerf  with loosing 1A on charge in 8th hit versatility of Tacs way too hard.

 

Overall I belive Tacs (outside 30k) are over-rated, and for BA army, they are the cancer of the codex that we got in 7th ed. After all BA is the codex that should be leading the charge :)

 

~BT 

[Karhedron]

Yeah possibly. I was excited about the prospect of dropping forty tactical marines right in rapid fire range though. I'll have to see if I can gather enough proxies and run some tests to see how it might work out.

If you want to drop a lot of dakka death on the enemy, a better way to do it is to use Company Veterans. Firstly, you can give the all Storm Bolters which are an absolute bargain at 2 points each and gives a 5-man squad the same firepower as a 10-man Tac squad. Secondly, they come with Jump Packs which are a far cheaper way of Deep Striking your squads into the enemy than Drop Pods.

 

You mentioned the idea of dropping in 40 Tactical Marines. That would cost you around 900 points before upgrades for the men and the Pods. Now 40 Company Veterans with SBs and JPs would set you back 840 Points but would have double the firepower thanks to the Storm Bolters! Also, while they would not have Pods, they would have far greater mobility after landing thanks to their Jump Packs. Lastly, they are much better in CC. Vets get 2 attacks rather than 1 for Tac marines and they can be given free chainswords for an extra +1A.

 

If you Tactical squads shoot and then charged after the drop, they would get 80 Bolter shots followed by 40 CC attacks. If the Veterans do the same, they would get 160 bolter shots followed by 120 CC attacks. For fewer points!

 

Company Veterans all the way!

[Panzer]

Yeah there is really no point in spamming Tacticals.

Anti-Horde duty? Just take one of the Elite choices. Melee, Shooting...your choice. They all do it better.

Special/Heavy weapons? Just take Elite or Heavy Support. Heck even Fast Attack.

ObSec/Filling Detachments? Just take Scouts, really.

 

And that's just with considering our Infantry options.

Only reason to take Tacticals these days is for either fluff reasons, personal preference or because you already own them imo.

 

EDIT: grammar herp derp

Edited October 4, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Julius Firefocht]

Just about the only Marine army that stands a chance of making Tactical Marine spam work out is Dark Angels. A block of 30+ Tactical Marines marching up the board with 4++ save aura from Azrael.. though I would question why are you not giving that 4++ aura to Deathwing Terminators?? Also note that even in this scenario you will still die like flies to AP-1 weapons, which this edition just so happens to have an abundance of.

 

Or you can try Ultramarines Tactical Squads with Guilliman. Rerolling to hit and to wound is a giant force multiplier, but the question remains. Why are you using that buff on bolter Marines instead of more powerful units like Terminators and Hellblasters?

 

And these are the armies that stand a remote chance of making Tactical spam work.

 

I could potentially see this work out when we get our Codex and assuming we get a Chapter Tactic that rewards our units for charging. Having a block of cheap Tactical Marines jump out of Rhinos on turn 2, rapidfiring weapons and charging in to finish off their target, then capping objectives in late game.

 

It could work out, but I would not bet on it.

[Karhedron]

When we get ObjSec at Christmas, Tactical squads will get slightly better. Put a squad in a Pod and drop them on an Objective on turn 3. Still costs around 250-ish points and I am not totally convinced it is the best way to snag objectives but ObjSec will at least give them some reason to exist.

[Panzer]

When we get ObjSec at Christmas, Tactical squads will get slightly better. Put a squad in a Pod and drop them on an Objective on turn 3. Still costs around 250-ish points and I am not totally convinced it is the best way to snag objectives but ObjSec will at least give them some reason to exist.

Or just take Scouts for that, really. Usually even saves you the points for the Drop Pod so you can take even more stuff.

[Schlitzaf]

I think BT are in a really good place now, especially considering Tacticals or Crusader squads.

 

First, BT can re-roll charges. While not the best ability for specifically for Tacs, it certainly helps.

 

Secondly, Crusader squads can have 20x bodies, kitted to be shooty, stabby, or any combination that pleases. They can also min/max with a special and heavy weapon in each squad. Further more, Neophytes (Scouts) provide brilliant ablative wounds: you can take a 3+(2+ in cover) save, but kill off a cheap 4+ Neophyte if the roll fails.

 

What Crusader squads do is make Troop choices incredibly hardy and pretty killy against other line troops that massed S4 will do work against. Especially when you add in buffing characters. It plays to the BT’s strength which is essentially Black Tide.

 

BA, in contrast and as we currently stand pre-Codex, are a particularly mobile army with special weapons on jump packs and flying 2+ armor saves. For us, our Troops serve more as static screens to hold the enemy in place or hold rear Obj. The anvil to the hammer of mobile units like Sang Guard, DC, Vets, Or ASM. For BT, Crusaders (Troops) are the hammer.

 

That’s not to knock on your post, Frater, but to add some context.

Just wanted to correct that you have to remove the models whose sides you rolled for. So you cannot roll saves using initiates save fail it and then take out Neophytes. And in all fairness, you are right about Crusader Squads vs Tacticals (if you see any of my posts about Templars. I often say, BT Chapter Tactic is actually "Best Tactical Squad variant in the game barring maybe Grey Hunters + Some Rule". But in regards to tideability, Neos aren't cheaper than Scout. Unless you do 5 Man MSU, the efficiency of Crusaders is tide to our ability to Neophyte-Initaite (In otherwise words, we pay 12 points a Marine essentially). But this is about Blood Angels and Tactical Squads. 

 

Objective Secured is important. What also important is having bodies to mount an offensive. I think a purely Tactical Spam list would fail. Tactical Spam is best used in a combined arms fashion is what I am trying to say and you don't need to MSU or 12 points for that. (Well personally I'd use Intercessors if I didn't have Crusaders but going on). Tacticals are best used as you described in general the anvil to another units hammer. They give board presence, and numbers to fight a battle of attrition. 

[Karhedron]

 

When we get ObjSec at Christmas, Tactical squads will get slightly better. Put a squad in a Pod and drop them on an Objective on turn 3. Still costs around 250-ish points and I am not totally convinced it is the best way to snag objectives but ObjSec will at least give them some reason to exist.

Or just take Scouts for that, really. Usually even saves you the points for the Drop Pod so you can take even more stuff.

 

The advantage of Tacs in a Pod is simply that you can plonk them down on any objective. No need to make your way there under fire. Whether that is worth 100 points is debatable.