Elite Armies - Do They Fit 8th Ed 40k Competitive Scene?

[Zodd1888]

I'm curious to see what the general feeling is out there on pure elite armies in 8th. Do TSons, DW, GK, etc. Have what it takes to stand with AM and Marines at their best? If they don't what needs to change?

 

I'm just looking to see what the opinions are out there. I personally play my armies for the love of the fluff/esthetic but it does disappoint me to see these beautiful armies seldom place highly at tournaments.

[Ishagu]

Nope, unfortunately.

Hordes are currently dominating, backed by hard hitting units they shield.

 

A Brimstone Horror has a better chance of surviving a Las Cannon shot than a Grey Knight Terminator. They need to re-tune the point costs of the more "disposable" units.

[gunnyogrady]

Not really viable for competitive play, no. Hordes are definitely strongest now, and those are most often supported by high T, high W models (if not just more hordes). Neither of those unit types describes elite units, who are sort of caught in between the two worlds.

 

I've played only Guard for 10 years or so, and I for one am happy to see them doing well, haha. We've been pretty middle-of-the-pack for a while.

 

Here is my take, thinking about it from Gee Dubs' perspective as a model-selling company. It seems like Elite Armies now serve the purpose of getting new hobbyists into the game cheaply, with cool units that don't require a lot of cash to have a completed army. For this reason, these units tend to be more fluffy and cool. The larger, more competitive armies are for hobbyists who are willing to spend more money to be more competitive.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm having a great time mowing down hordes of chaff units with my GK.

 

Deep Strike two 5 man strike squads and a GM for reroll 1's. And 40 storm bolter shots melt.

 

Ah Storm Bolters. How you've been buffed and make our special weapons all but pointless.

 

Edit. Once the chaffs gone, the hard units that are being protected either get smited to death. Or forced weaponed with multiple damage in CC.

 

Our Apothecaries are pure lolz. You can't shoot them. Characters thank you very much. And they have 4A with a Damage 3 hammer. Hitting on 3's thanks to WS2+.

 

And if you kill one in CC? 1CP let's them get another 4A in.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Captain Idaho]

I need more experience on the table before I can confirm of deny the premise.

 

I know that my Ultramarines have decent numbers in the form of several Tactical squads as the backbone which has seen me cope with armies with large numbers. Each Tactical Marine has an anti-infantry weapon after all.

 

My initial hypothesis is armies need to take more Troops choices. If you're outnumbered and under gunned, get more bodies and more guns.

 

Small, elite, "MSU" armies are dying out particularly against horde armies. Perhaps Grey Knights need to take about 25 Marines in Strike squads before they reach for other choices? Perhaps an Imperial Fist army needs 2 or 3 full Tactical squads as a core?

 

I know my 2000pts list has 56 infantry models including characters, veterans and the like. That's a solid number. An Ork horde has (usually) only 3 times that number.

[Azekai]

Mortal wounds counter elite models hard. I am ok with that. Unkillable deathstar units were lame.

Unfortunately GW removed the hard counter to chaff, which was templates (or area of effect in general). Now the best we can hope for is artillery with additional d6 hits for every 5 models, which obviously is a diminishing return. Therefore, the most efficient and durable units are the ones that offer the cheapest piles of (fearless) bodies.

With the plethora of high-damage weapons it is comparatively easy to destroy things like Primaris and Terminators. Massed guard infantry or kustom force-field protected greentide, on the other hand, is very hard to shake, and if you can shoot that off the board I guarantee you brought enough firepower to kill an elite army through sheer volume of fire alone.

8th is still a good system, but GW still needs to re-address this startling and counter-intuitive imbalance.  I personally would get rid of morale immunity entirely. Then you can take hordes of models, but they are comparatively fragile. If hordes die twice as fast thanks to their poor morale, elite armies would be able to hold their own. This also has the happy side-effect of the game mimicking the lore of the 40k universe- terminators should be capable of scything through scads of lesser foes, not be regularly and easily buried under a pile of fearless lemming soldiers. That is idiotic and runs counter to the very fantasy that drew so many of us into the hobby.

Sure, the lone guardsman sometimes triumphs against terrible and overwhelming odds- I remember Olianus Pius. But when the galaxy's finest are being reliably clubbed down with rifle butts, something has to change.

I think that tweaking morale is an easier solution than reintroducing templates or re-balancing the cost of units with lots of wounds vs. units with very few wounds but good saves. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Storm Bolters at half range are the anti chaff. Only 2 points.

 

Especially great versus T3 chaff units.

 

For us, instead of Elite versus Horde, 8th seems to be more of "getting first turn and alpha striking / losing first turn and trying to survive the inevitable alpha strike".

 

Our games have all been decided turn 1, with seize being possibly the most important roll in the game.

 

It's really really easy in 8th to alpha strike with a massive volume of shots. And getting as many first turn charges to tie up whatever left is mandatory.

 

Edit. Moral is mostly fine.

 

My Elite units hardly ever have to roll. They can either auto pass or are all dead.

 

And i can shot a unit of 30 gaunts, kill 17 and have the rest die to moral on thier ld5.

 

What's broken is the ability to give fearless to 20+ sized units.

 

Moral is the hard counter to them. And should remain a threat.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Schlitzaf]

Let us be honest with ourselves, Templates were the Mortal Wounds for Horde. The point of the Horde, is to have more bodies or wounds than your opponent has ‘bullets’ (literal or figurative). Elites armies should instead force the game to fight in a small area. So the larger force cannot bring to bear all its guns.

 

Removing moral immunity would see Horde armies go the way of Gaunts and Boyz did when 5th Edition reworked fearless. Smite counters elite armies. And in this edition Snipers and ability to target the buff characters kill Hordes.

 

Horde Armies should be durable. Not swept away like chaff. They just shouldn’t be durable in the same manner of elite armies. Elite Armies win by choosing the battlefield. You cannot engage on all fronts.

 

A balanced Marine army with 3-4 Tactical Or Equivalants (30-40 Wounds), 2 Characters, ‘2’ Hammer Units (Terminator, Dreadnought Spam, Veterans, Super Characters Like Gulliman, take your pick), and 3ish Support Units (Devies, Tanks, Thunderfiress etc). The rest of your army being auxillary, could engage and on 2-3 front.

 

If you take a Deathwing List, with Belial, Termi character m and 20-30 Terminators, then rest on support. You just won’t have the drop nor numbers. If you charge Berzerker style into a Horde your gonna be gunned down.

 

Smite is the same principle. If you drop into the middle of the Horrors or otherwise. And expect to blast everything. Your gonna lose. Elite Armies have to highly mobile or very least choose the battlefield you want. A stacked flank being a classic setup. Have a couple Cyclone Terminators in left hand corner. Place 1 of your objectives their. See their they place their objectives (espacially if you place second.) then double objective on a flank beside your home field. If they do corner-corner and you left-corner. Do middle right. Force them to divide but place the bulk of your points on the middle right drop.

 

The Berzerker Charge down the middle will get murdered. Too many players I have seen personally been Zerking former Stars. And surprised they are being brought down by weight of fire. You have to engage selectively. While my prospective is skewed, given I normally have 120ish models on board any given day of the week. Only half to a 3/4 of that is what I call ‘effective’ firepower.

 

A basic example, is a lot of folks are taking Veterans with StormBolters over Tacticals more shots for more points right? Will take a 5 Man Veteran with 5 Storms. That is 90 Points. An 7 Man Tactical is 91; 7 Shots vs 10. But you have two more wounds.

 

Double that. 180 for Company. 20 Shots. 182 for 14 Tacticals. 14 Shots. You lost 6 Shots. But you gain nearly a combat squad of wounds. Once we get in rapid ifs 28 vs 40. Lose one model from each. 26 vs 36. Then a second 24 vs 32. A third 22 vs 28. A 4th. 20 vs 24. After losing the. Same model count number from each. The Company Veteran 40% of their combat effectiveness. To the Tacticals losing only 33%. If we go to 5 man lost. Is 18 vs 20. That is 50% to just over 33% loss in combat effectiveness.

 

Do the Veterans put more appreciable firepower for the same cost. Yes. But they lose durability over a long term for that ability. Meaning you have to Alpha hard and alpha fast. Or choose an engagement where the smaller effective wound count is less damaging. If you deploy and fight with an elite army, your paying for the ability for a stronger Alpha Strike.

 

If the game goes long, you will lose. So you have to be certain unit placement, movement and attack. You have to, to force the enemy to divide but also force a single front. A tall order. But you have to force your foe to defend multiple fronts. Using that setup listed above, assuming your place middle right further enough apart. The army will have to split itself down the middle. And while the enemy’s top half goes to claim the other objective. They have to divert resources to deal with your more impressive force on the bottom.

 

Space Marines are not an army. They are a surgical strike force. If you attempt to engage a horde of Gaurdsman you will lose. The same logic I demonstrated with Tacticals vs Veterans with StormBolters applies but on a much larger scale.

 

Tl;dr- Don’t Zerker Charge. Unit Placement and Proper Shots matter. Don’t fight the enemy on their terms force the fight on your own. Force division but focus.

 

Elites are essentially paying for Alpha Strike ability. Remember that. You pay more for higher output. Mathhammer says they have better damage than then troop equivalent but don’t forget that those only “14” Bolter shots are nearly another squad worth of models over Veterans.

[Gentlemanloser]

And then you face nids who ds two trigon surrounded by 30 gaunts each Who drop 180 S4 shots on your Elite army.

 

As a 1st turn Alpha strike. That pick thier targets like Elite armies do.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[N1SB]

I'm curious to see what the general feeling is out there on pure elite armies in 8th. Do TSons, DW, GK, etc. Have what it takes to stand with AM and Marines at their best? If they don't what needs to change?

 

I'm just looking to see what the opinions are out there. I personally play my armies for the love of the fluff/esthetic but it does disappoint me to see these beautiful armies seldom place highly at tournaments.

 

I absolutely believe pure elite armies (or elite-like units) can have what it takes.  It is not a hypothetical.  It's because in the recent WarGamesCon tournament the best overall list had UNDER 20 models in 2000 pts.  That's the one where a bunch of Culexus Assassins screened an army (thanks to their needing a 6 to hit them rule) of Eversors, Roboute Guilliman, Drago, etc., where everything was a character.

 

Is that beardy/cheesy/an exploit?  Probably yes; feel free to debate that.  Did it win best overall?  Definitely yes.

 

It's easy to dismiss that as a one-off lightning-in-a-bottle, until someone finds something else that is just as much of an exploit, with the new codices coming up.

[TrexPushups]

And then you face nids who ds two trigon surrounded by 30 gaunts each Who drop 180 S4 shots on your Elite army.

As a 1st turn Alpha strike. That pick thier targets like Elite armies do.

Use scouts to block all possible deepstrike zones other than their deployment zone. 55 points per unit 3 units is all you need so 165 points for 15 bolters & objective secured bodies and complete immunity to deep strike alphas. Additional benefit is you just filled out enough troop slots to take a battalion.

 

They can still hit you on turn 2+ if they clear out the scouts but that isn't as bad as you will have had a turn to shoot etc and possibly plug the hole.

[Captain Idaho]

I do believe the aformentioned "Elite Hard Counter" of Smite is part of the problem many players are having in the "Swiss" environment. That is, if players build an "all comers list", they focus on Marines and elite killing because that was how to kill folk in previous editions.

 

Now I reckon folk should wait until players move away from all this skewed list building from a hangover of previous editions.

 

Consider that horde armies will become more popular and certainly more competitive, so when you turn up to a tournament with nothing but Lascannons and plasma guns it's your own fault that the Ork player steam rollered you.

 

Take more balanced lists, people. Your anti-elite focus is going to see you defeated. Take a wedge of Tactical Marines and ignore previous editions where the internet said they were rubbish.

 

Tactical Marines are amazing now. Double special thanks to combis and resilient Rhinos makes them fast and dangerous.

 

Heavy Bolters are good and cheap now. Add them to your Tactical squads. Ignore the internet when it tells you thank missile launchers are rubbish (4chan I'm looking at you) and load up 4 in a Devastator squad. Seriously, 4D6 shots with rerolls thanks to Wisdom of the Ancients, Captains and/Lieutenants will make a mess of light infantry whilst being able to switch to killing vehicles pretty well.

[Trevak Dal]

My black legion is played very Codex Marine style, I just split up my ctacs into 5 man squads (chaos doesn't have combat squads) 6 Ctac fireteams, working in unison (30 wounds) usually with some raptors, a heldrake, with some terminators and havocks.

 

I got oblits in the wings, maybe cultists bit I prefer cultists with my world eaters.

[the jeske]

 

I'm curious to see what the general feeling is out there on pure elite armies in 8th. Do TSons, DW, GK, etc. Have what it takes to stand with AM and Marines at their best? If they don't what needs to change?

 

I'm just looking to see what the opinions are out there. I personally play my armies for the love of the fluff/esthetic but it does disappoint me to see these beautiful armies seldom place highly at tournaments.

 

I absolutely believe pure elite armies (or elite-like units) can have what it takes.  It is not a hypothetical.  It's because in the recent WarGamesCon tournament the best overall list had UNDER 20 models in 2000 pts.  That's the one where a bunch of Culexus Assassins screened an army (thanks to their needing a 6 to hit them rule) of Eversors, Roboute Guilliman, Drago, etc., where everything was a character.

 

Is that beardy/cheesy/an exploit?  Probably yes; feel free to debate that.  Did it win best overall?  Definitely yes.

 

It's easy to dismiss that as a one-off lightning-in-a-bottle, until someone finds something else that is just as much of an exploit, with the new codices coming up.

 

yeah, but that is the old style death star army, not an elite army with units.

 

 

 

Take more balanced lists, people. Your anti-elite focus is going to see you defeated. Take a wedge of Tactical Marines and ignore previous editions where the internet said they were rubbish.

 

Tactical Marines are amazing now. Double special thanks to combis and resilient Rhinos makes them fast and dangerous.

 

Heavy Bolters are good and cheap now. Add them to your Tactical squads. Ignore the internet when it tells you thank missile launchers are rubbish (4chan I'm looking at you) and load up 4 in a Devastator squad. Seriously, 4D6 shots with rerolls thanks to Wisdom of the Ancients, Captains and/Lieutenants will make a mess of light infantry whilst being able to switch to killing vehicles pretty well.

 

yeah, but then you get match up vs a knight or deathstar list in round 3-4, and feel as if you wasted money on hotel and gas. IMO the only way to fix the skew match ups in tournaments is to have a 2 list format. Tournament players are already spending more per army then anyone else[not saying that it won't hurt people], but at least people will be able to play around. And then the meta will have a chance to smooth itself in to more all commers list. This of course has to be done along side scenarios and scoring/first turn changes. Otherwise we are going to be seeing the same stuff we see now. Horde soup lists and specific builds like deathstars/Raven lists [until GW decides to nerf them], and skew lists [4-5 knights and a G-man etc].

[Captain Idaho]

I certainly agree with the 2 match format. Or more preferably, a core list with an additional detachment.

 

I can take on a Knight or 2. Even a Death Star clump. But an army of Knights might ruin my day I admit. Or an army of Guard tanks.

 

I concede that point.

 

But the majority of games I can say that my preference and advice will work out for competitive games.

 

The question is; what will GW do about Astra Millitarum tank spam or all knight armies?

 

Perhaps nothing if Ork hordes and the new Tyranid books deal with them easily enough?

 

I don't know how many points a Leman Russ will cost.

[Eddie Orlock]

IMO the only way to fix the skew match ups in tournaments is to have a 2 list format.

Depending on what the list construction rules are, this seems a bit like a factional ability of Chaos and the whole Demon summoning thing. Many of the powers will say something like : Roll Nd6 and add their scores. Place a unit of demons with total power rating less than you rolled upon the field, pay for them buy deducting their cost from the points you allocated to 'reinforcements'. Unless some tournament rule required you to pre-declare what you were planning to summon you wind up with flexibility between sluggish and tough stuff like great unclean ones to the swift and fragile seekers of slaneesh.

 

Maybe we write into tournament scenarios an ability that for a modest command point cost they could draft in X power points worth of 'reinforcements' during deployment (or actively during the game as reserves?) and pay that cost from a pre-set aside allocation. Set up the trade of command points for force flexibility on the fly? Also an open question of just how many options you'd want to lug along to the venue.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

These suggestions sound suspiciously like WarmaHordes tourney rules...

[the jeske]

well because those rules are in general better to what w40k have right now. They are not perfect though [would be hard to copy the one caster per list thing for example] as far as w40k goes. Am not saying that warmahordes tournament lists are cheap, because they are not, they are cheaper then most w40k list, and when we are starting to enter 2k $ per working list[well lists] range the threshold for some people may end up being crossed.

 

Depending on what the list construction rules are, this seems a bit like a factional ability of Chaos and the whole Demon summoning thing. Many of the powers will say something like : Roll Nd6 and add their scores. Place a unit of demons with total power rating less than you rolled upon the field, pay for them buy deducting their cost from the points you allocated to 'reinforcements'. Unless some tournament rule required you to pre-declare what you were planning to summon you wind up with flexibility between sluggish and tough stuff like great unclean ones to the swift and fragile seekers of slaneesh.

 

It has to be two lists [well in a perfect world with limitless money and more then 2 types of viable lists it would be 3], when they are 3 types of lists you can build[horde soup, super friends and skew] and you can pick only 2, you have to add a bit of anti skew or anti horde to your super friends lists. You can of course go more complex with rules[like can't play the same list back to back for example], but even the simple change would smooth the lists to be more all comers. And I think that is better then what we have right now[where we can have someone take a skew list, get lucky on match ups and pilot it to top tables] .

 

 

The question is; what will GW do about Astra Millitarum tank spam or all knight armies?

 

nothing. the codex, if you have seen it, does not change much [specially when the index is still there] in the way IG plays [well other then X is now better, because besides normal wyvern rules your stuff now does more dmg then a regular wyvern]. Now at home with pre build armies 8th can have lot of varity in game play[but then again with pre build armies even 7th could try doing that]. For event or tournament player though, 8th from day 1 was only a shift in type of armies that were good not in how if felt to play w40k the tournament way. The xp does not change much what ever the falcon you face is unkillable by 1500pts of an army, the invisble unit is protected by a +2/++2 with re-rolls or an avarge 2k points list being unable to clear 150models of a relic in a 4-5 turn game.

GW won't fix stuff, so imo it is in the hands of Orgs to fix as much as they can. make scenarios that aren't super good for one type of army,try to add 2 lists, maybe play around with MtG "side deck" idea X points of core and Y points of stuff you can switch out[power points could actualy work ok here, as much as I don't like them]. all is in people hands.

 

 

Perhaps nothing if Ork hordes and the new Tyranid books deal with them easily enough?

 

not really the orcs are going to have two distinct builds the monster mash[imo tier 2, but people do play tier 2 lists if they are skew enough like knights for example] and the smite spam. In a way everyone is playing the same list right now [and copied rules don't help some facitons here]. You have artilery swarm with/without smite spam lists or some sort of skew monster mash/super friends lists, and that is more or less it. Also due to some rules you end up with funny things like the best tyranid unit right now being the wyvern[unlocked through brood brotthers].

[Closet Skeleton]

I can take on a Knight or 2. Even a Death Star clump. But an army of Knights might ruin my day I admit. Or an army of Guard tanks.

 

 

I've fought 4 knight lists without having a single long range d6 damage weapon in my army. You just don't need them, knights are very low tier as a faction.

 

You can't kill knights with bolt guns but combat squading so you have 5 man units to sacrifice in front of them is very useful. Unless you're playing kill points but that would mean you're either having very bad luck in a tournament or have a strange fascination with one of the worst scoring systems ever devised.

 

Guard Leman Russ armies on the other hand are going to be a lot scarier than knight armies. Triple Baneblade  chassis + regimental doctrines with Primaris Psyker and Enginseer support is going to make knights look like a joke.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Closet Skeleton

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Elite units aren't elite enough. That 15-21 model Guilliman Assassin spam list shows that each elite model has to be at least as durable as an Eversor Assassin, who also have the benefit of hiding from wounds due to the Character rule. Comparing a special Terminator to an Eversor is a joke.