To Troop or not to Troop?

[Fahlnor]

My brain is still stuck in 7th-edition CAD-mode and I'm finding it difficult to really get my head around list building in 8th. I thought I'd do a poll to see what your thoughts are regarding the first, very basic question of the new edition: to Troop or not to Troop?

 

Do you think it's worth bringing Troops in order to unlock CPs with the current rules we're working with? If so, which Troops would you bring? Why? How would you equip the units? Do you think it's worth 270 points to bring 15 camo-cloaked sniper Scouts, for example? Maybe you prefer five-man Tactical Squads in Razorbacks? Or have you embraced the new order and found space for a few units of Intercessors? Do you find those additional three Command Points to be worth paying for?

 

If you don't think it's worth paying a Troops "tax", what's the baseline unit for your army? Assault Squads seem largely outperformed by Vanguard Veteran Squads - is our entire army now based on small, elite units (à la VV, SangGuard, DC, Termies)? Perhaps you still see a value in 10-man Assault Squads to put bodies on the table - or would you maybe be using a few 5-man units with double melta to bring some heat against your opponent early on? Does bringing a list of more efficient models which have eg. their own re-rolls do enough to mitigate the lack of Command Points?

 

Really curious to know your thoughts and what you take into consideration when putting together your lists in 8th.

[Karhedron]

BA Troops are pretty anemic. ObjSec will make them slightly better but they are still hardly stellar. Scouts are decent and a large squad of CC Scouts with a cheap Priest will throw out a large number of S5 attacks.

 

If you want back-field objective-grabbers then Intercessors are OK. If you want mobility then a 5-man squad with plasma gun, combi-plas on the sergeant and an assault cannon Razorback is probably the best option.

 

Troops are not where our strengths lie in 8th edition so if you do want them, keep them cheap and use them to get CPs and hold objectives.

 

Speaking of CPs, it depends what is in your army to some extent as to how many you will need. Psykers tend to need CPs as the cost of failing a crucial psychic test or, worse, suffering a Perils is something you need to guard against.

 

You can reduce reliance on CPs by bringing your own rerolls with you. A Captain near your plasma weaponry to allow you to reroll 1s means it is much safer to overcharge them. Chaplains provide rerolls in CC and our Ancient provides rerolls of 1 to wound. If you have any of these characters then again, your reliance on CPs is reduced.

 

For Marines I like to aim for 6-ish CPs at 1500-2000 points. For Eldar I find I can get away with just 4 at the same points level as Guide+Doom+Autarch and no overheating plasma means they need them far less.

[TrexPushups]

I don't think 3 unit of camo sniper scouts is worth it.

 

But 3 units of bolter scouts? I'd recommend them for sure. They are cheap, have some anti conscript weapons & prevent deepstrike alphas strikes from getting close to your army on turn one.

[Aothaine]

While I do try and toss ideas from all over the place such as tactical spam and the heavy flamer focused list I'm currently building I tend to agree with Karhedronuk. However, things can easily change when our dex drops. I would try and refrain from too many expensive (money wise) units until that happens unless money is not an issue for you.

 

If you're just playing to have fun everything works. If you are playing competitively our options are rather shallow and the double plasma tac with AC razorback is one of our most solid choices for troops. It is also one of the best troops options for most space marine chapters at this point.

[Fahlnor]

5-man Tactical Squad with dual plasma in an AC Razorback with storm bolter is clocking in at 195 points. 10-man Scout Squad with sniper rifles and camo cloaks is 180.

 

Maybe two units of Tacticals and one unit of Scouts for 570 points...? Add a couple of characters to taste. Then I can start building towards other detachments, with Fast Attack and Elites and such.

 

Does that seem like a reasonable base to start from? It does mean I can pick up seven or maybe even eight Command Points across the army while still being reasonably fluffy. Hmmmmm. Maybe I like the idea!

[Karhedron]

However, things can easily change when our dex drops.

Quoted for Truth!

 

Ironically, even if the new Dex doesn't buff our Troop units, we will likely need them even more as we will get new Stratagems to use. The current universal stratagems are handy but not worth changing your army composition for. The ones that have turned up in the new Codices are often quite powerful though I can see the need to run a Battalion at the very least to ensure a decent supply of CPs once we get our selection.

 

Hopefully we will get some Chapter Traits and tactics that do actually benefit our Troops but we will have to wait and see.

[Fahlnor]

 

However, things can easily change when our dex drops.

Quoted for Truth!Ironically, even if the new Dex doesn't buff our Troop units, we will likely need them even more as we will get new Stratagems to use. The current universal stratagems are handy but not worth changing your army composition for. The ones that have turned up in the new Codices are often quite powerful though I can see the need to run a Battalion at the very least to ensure a decent supply of CPs once we get our selection.Hopefully we will get some Chapter Traits and tactics that do actually benefit our Troops but we will have to wait and see.

It's also not outwith the realms of possibility that we'll see Assault Squads return as Troops.

[Karhedron]

It's also not outwith the realms of possibility that we'll see Assault Squads return as Troops.

I have to say I consider this very unlikely. Apart from Wolves, all Marines seem to have the choice of just 3 Troop units, Tacticals, Scouts and Intercessor. I cannot see us getting a fourth just because the option existed a couple of codices ago. Also the fact that the Outrider detachment exists suggests that this is the preffered mechanism for bringing an army based around FA units.

 

Happy to be proved wrong of course.

[Fahlnor]

 

It's also not outwith the realms of possibility that we'll see Assault Squads return as Troops.

I have to say I consider this very unlikely. Apart from Wolves, all Marines seem to have the choice of just 3 Troop units, Tacticals, Scouts and Intercessor. I cannot see us getting a fourth just because the option existed a couple of codices ago. Also the fact that the Outrider detachment exists suggests that this is the preffered mechanism for bringing an army based around FA units.Happy to be proved wrong of course.

Problem is that as FA units, they're not all that impressive. It's fairly well documented that VV are better in nearly every way. But move ASM to Troops and suddenly you have a choice to make.

[tychobi]

Troops. Worth it out of the present index list?  Sorta. 

 

From a competitive standpoint nothing in the Index Blood Angels list is "worth it".  We need a Codex before it will be "worth it" to take any Blood Angels at all.  

 

For casuals and in general yes it is worth it to take troops because stratagems are so powerful.  Right now we do not have very many to choose from but I have no problem burning 7 command dice in a 2k and finish wishing I had more.   The more synergistic and cool stratagems we get in our codex the more we will be hungering for those sweet sweet command dice. 

 

Right now for my command dice I use msu scouts of various flavors.  Favorite being 4 combat knives and 1 heavy bolter.   Are they awesome? No. Fun? yes! Worth it?  Why not!

[Brother Crimson]

In our area we play with ObjSec and troop became better. 

 

Before that it was prety frequent to see all elite/ heavy lists. There is no real reason other than fluff to play Tactical  Squads when Devastators is the same price and better with signum. Also devastator blobs with captain/lieutenant is very very nasty.

 

I personally like to use tac squads in razorbacks to rush objectives. Sure the Razorback does most of the job but the tactical hold the objective and help to score points. Giving them a few special weapons makes them useful in combat too. Scout deployment rules are also pretty good to prevent early deep strike.

 

That being said, in a 2K game I'll rarely get more than 6 MSU troops anyway as you lose too much firepower if you bring more.

[Indefragable]

3x units of minimum cost Scouts to unlock +3CP can be quite efficient, especially if you use it as an excuse to bring 2x Sanguinary Priests or other buff units.

[The Unseen]

For those of you who use scouts to fulfil troop slots, I don't have the math handy, but shotgun scouts, if they get within 6" and then assault, do more damage than blade/pistol scouts first round of shooting+combat, and they end up roughly the same after 2nd round.

It isn't till the 3rd round that blades and pistols are actually better, which usually won't come up.

 

If your outside 6" before you charge, the units are identical, unless you have a priest/chaplain nearby or such.

 

So shotguns all the way for me.

[Fahlnor]

How much value would you put in the 36" range and the ability to take out support characters for the sniper squad?

 

I'm not expecting a squad of ten to kill Guilliman, but maybe given a couple of turns they could take out an enemy Chaplain or a Broodlord or whatnot...?

[Ceril]

You need scouts for screening. You need scouts to deny opponent scouting. They are also worth their value, easily. Often, each dead scout is a more expensive marine alive.

[tychobi]

How much value would you put in the 36" range and the ability to take out support characters for the sniper squad?

 

I'm not expecting a squad of ten to kill Guilliman, but maybe given a couple of turns they could take out an enemy Chaplain or a Broodlord or whatnot...?

i use 4 snipers and a missile launcher no cloaks.  its ok.  the reason they get killed is because they are in the way or the enemy fears the missile.  the rifles are a bit meh.  cloaks are a rip off.  all in all cheap and cheerful is probably better.  I have had a little fun with my new fave raven riding breaching team.  4 shotguns and combat blade+thunder hammer sarge.  Ive messed up some big stuff with the thunder hammer 3 attacks. . . . also wiffed a few times.  Probably gonna make the thunder hammer combat knife combo obsolete in new dex if history serves

[Fahlnor]

 

How much value would you put in the 36" range and the ability to take out support characters for the sniper squad?

 

I'm not expecting a squad of ten to kill Guilliman, but maybe given a couple of turns they could take out an enemy Chaplain or a Broodlord or whatnot...?

 

i use 4 snipers and a missile launcher no cloaks.  its ok.  the reason they get killed is because they are in the way or the enemy fears the missile.  the rifles are a bit meh.  cloaks are a rip off.  all in all cheap and cheerful is probably better.  I have had a little fun with my new fave raven riding breaching team.  4 shotguns and combat blade+thunder hammer sarge.  Ive messed up some big stuff with the thunder hammer 3 attacks. . . . also wiffed a few times.  Probably gonna make the thunder hammer combat knife combo obsolete in new dex if history serves

Where's the third attack coming from for the thunder hammer? The combat knife only allows an extra attack using the knife itself...?

[Panzer]

How much value would you put in the 36" range and the ability to take out support characters for the sniper squad?

 

I'm not expecting a squad of ten to kill Guilliman, but maybe given a couple of turns they could take out an enemy Chaplain or a Broodlord or whatnot...?

Honestly? None. I don't think any army has Sniper worth taking except for AdMech since those actually have a proper armor modifier and don't have to rely on 6s.

The kind of characters you can threaten properly with AP0 weapons are the ones the enemy could spam easily since they are so cheap anyway.

[tychobi]

 

 

How much value would you put in the 36" range and the ability to take out support characters for the sniper squad?

 

I'm not expecting a squad of ten to kill Guilliman, but maybe given a couple of turns they could take out an enemy Chaplain or a Broodlord or whatnot...?

i use 4 snipers and a missile launcher no cloaks.  its ok.  the reason they get killed is because they are in the way or the enemy fears the missile.  the rifles are a bit meh.  cloaks are a rip off.  all in all cheap and cheerful is probably better.  I have had a little fun with my new fave raven riding breaching team.  4 shotguns and combat blade+thunder hammer sarge.  Ive messed up some big stuff with the thunder hammer 3 attacks. . . . also wiffed a few times.  Probably gonna make the thunder hammer combat knife combo obsolete in new dex if history serves

Where's the third attack coming from for the thunder hammer? The combat knife only allows an extra attack using the knife itself...?

 

nope.  it allows an extra attack! they cover it in a faq somewhere but the extra attack is not attached to the weapon itself.  it gives you an extra attak if u are armed with it.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

How much value would you put in the 36" range and the ability to take out support characters for the sniper squad?

 

I'm not expecting a squad of ten to kill Guilliman, but maybe given a couple of turns they could take out an enemy Chaplain or a Broodlord or whatnot...?

i use 4 snipers and a missile launcher no cloaks.  its ok.  the reason they get killed is because they are in the way or the enemy fears the missile.  the rifles are a bit meh.  cloaks are a rip off.  all in all cheap and cheerful is probably better.  I have had a little fun with my new fave raven riding breaching team.  4 shotguns and combat blade+thunder hammer sarge.  Ive messed up some big stuff with the thunder hammer 3 attacks. . . . also wiffed a few times.  Probably gonna make the thunder hammer combat knife combo obsolete in new dex if history serves

Where's the third attack coming from for the thunder hammer? The combat knife only allows an extra attack using the knife itself...?

 

nope.  it allows an extra attack! they cover it in a faq somewhere but the extra attack is not attached to the weapon itself.  it gives you an extra attak if u are armed with it.

 

Not true. It's an extra attack you use the knife with. The FAQ entry was about the question whether you actually have to fight with the Combat knife/Chainsword to get the bonus attack, not about with which weapon you can make that bonus attack.

[Thoridon]

 

nope.  it allows an extra attack! they cover it in a faq somewhere but the extra attack is not attached to the weapon itself.  it gives you an extra attak if u are armed with it.

 

 

Incorrect, sorry. You can make your initial/main attacks with any equipped weapon, but the extra 1 generated by having a combat knife equipped can only be used with the combat knife.

[Palwatch]

Scouts fulfil an important role in 8th as insulation from deep striking assaults. They are always worth it, I never leave home without them.

 

As for if its worth taking tac squads for the CP at the expense of balance - with only the three standard stratagems available to us, probably not.

[Morticon]

One squad of chunky scouts is valuable if you're not playing the IG conscript or cheap bubble-wrap idea.  Theyre hardy and fairly costed - and their ability to infiltrate is exceptional in providing drop protection.  

Beyond one squad, i'd start to question. A 5man sniper squad is a decent backfield objective holder with some good benefits. 

Tacticals however are nigh-useless when compared to what you can get from a Dev squad.  

We currently aren't bound by keyword restrictions for stratagems and things, so, consider Death Watch troops from the index instead.  They're incredible.  For their points you get more attacks, more versatility and more damage - and they can fill a troop slot. 

 

[Panzer]

And you can still make them Blood Angel ex-Deathwatch to make it a bit more fluffy. :D

[neonmole]

For what it’s worth (and I understand the arguments against) I have been running 3 5 man squads of Tac marines in my lists and found them to be the unsung stars in many games. (I run them with a Heavy Flamer, Combi-Melta, Power Sword).

 

I run them mechanised (in razorbacks with ACs or sometimes two in one Rhino) and I find them very useful in a couple of ways.

 

1 - screening charges. I’ve played world eaters a couple times, and both went the same. Screened my lines with Tacs, made sure they were more than 4 inch apart, and then delivered a counter charge with the following turn which more or less ends the game. The Tacs screen, deliver decent overwatch, then die with a purpose.

 

2 - obsec. Self explanatory. In my group we had adopted th chapter approved preview to avoid codex armies having unreasonable advantages (which they have anyway).

 

3 - versatile firepower - 3 Heavy flamers and melts guns is no joke. They don’t usually get shot before other things; which leaves them unmolested to do decent damage where you need it.

 

4 - tarpitting characters, this obviously won’t work against beefy assault unit; but a lot of characters (even strong melee) are not odds on to kill 5 marines in one round of combat. This means you can restrict thier options in the following turn which is strategically very valuable.

 

To be clear - I’m not suggesting this is going to get you far against 13 Malilific lords or stupidity like that, but against moderate competitive lists I think they have a place.