To Troop or not to Troop?

[Charlo]

Sniper scouts are nice and fun in that they might score big mortal wounds on some characters in a few games!

 

As echo'd above, some CC scouts up front are great for Deep Strike protection.

[Captain_Krash]

(EDIT: Eeeek complete mess up on my part. Correct.)

 

Krash

Edited October 13, 2017 by Captain_Krash

[Charlo]

What chapter traits mate? 

 

We don't have any rules beyond some nice pistols, heavy flamers and jump packs right now :P

[Jolemai]

I think you're a few months early with that assessment as we have no Chapter Traits right now :)

[Bremon]

Well I had my first game where my opponent was more prepared for Primaris. 2D weapons ripped swathes through my army and I’m not feeling so hot on Intercessors at the moment so next game I’ll likely run two Vanguards and ditch troops all together. I got second turn and conceded at the start of my third turn; Blightlord terminators are incredibly durable, pinned down all my hardest stuff, and a bloat drone explosion put the last wound on a captain, lieutenant, and dreadnought just as a daemon prince was ready to join the party lol.

[Indefragable]

I’ve been toying around with the idea of 5 man Tac squads with Storm bolter on the Sgt and a heavy bolter. 77pts. That’s 7 more than bolter/shotgun scouts with camo cloaks, with the same 2+ in cover, but also gets +2 S4 shots and +3 S5 AP-1 shots at 36”. My theory is that they are just mobile enough to run around as necessary, yet can reach out and plink things if you sit them on Obj all game.

 

That’s the theory. Need to test on the table.

 

 

Edit: ...although now that I think about it, a 5-man Scout squad with camo cloaks, heavy bolter, and Sgt w/ storm bolter is only 5pts more at 82pts, and can Infiltrate.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Indefragable

[Charlo]

I’ve been toying around with the idea of 5 man Tac squads with Storm bolter on the Sgt and a heavy bolter. 77pts. That’s 7 more than bolter/shotgun scouts with camo cloaks, with the same 2+ in cover, but also gets +2 S4 shots and +3 S5 AP-1 shots at 36”. My theory is that they are just mobile enough to run around as necessary, yet can reach out and plink things if you sit them on Obj all game.

 

That’s the theory. Need to test on the table.

 

 

Edit: ...although now that I think about it, a 5-man Scout squad with camo cloaks, heavy bolter, and Sgt w/ storm bolter is only 5pts more at 82pts, and can Infiltrate.

 

Interesting.

 

BUT builds like this always make me wonder... Are Tacs worth it for something like this where for minimal extra cost you can take some better weapons (Plasma/ Combi Plas/ Plas Cannon etc) and start having much more impact?

[Panzer]

It's kinda hilarious that Bolter don't mix well with Marines.

Like any armies 'basic-gun' they're only worth it if you can spam them, however Marines are supposed to be elite and are indeed too expensive to be spammed without sacrificing everything else in the army.

[Thoridon]

In a Points/Battleforged game I'd run troops if I wanted to unlock a Battalion or Brigade for extra command points, something that we might have more desire to do when we get our Codex with nice shiny stratagems.

 

I'd say Scouts have good versatility in a Points game, as they have in previous versions. They provide the cheapest slot filler when run basic or with minimal upgrades (ie. the Storm Bolter + Heavy Bolter mentioned above), they can be used to Infiltrate for a good starting position and when we see our chapter tactic the close combat setup might be enhanced again. A lot of different approaches to be useful ingame and unlock CPs.

 

If I was to run Tacticals it would be with more upgrades as if they'd be basic I'd probably rather just run the cheaper scouts. Take a Special and Combi, plonk them in a Razorback if you want the mobility/protection and added firepower. You then get 3 ablative wounds for a pair of Specials and the efficient Razorback which is rightly popular.

 

Saying that, I have various different Tactical builds from earlier versions and to be fluffy/thematic.

 

My Flesh Tearers have a 5-man dual-Plasma build (combi and special) to hop out of a transport with Seth for the rerolls, looking to get close for rapid fire and then charge. I then have another 5-man Tac Squad with Fist+Chainsword on the Sergeant and a Heavy Flamer for even more up-close shenanigans. It's probably not the optimal use of points but sod it, Flesh Tearers aren't supposed to be sensible. I'm planning to either have them all jumping out of a Stormraven with a Dreadnought and 2nd character filling the spaces or to run them and an Assault Squad or some DC in Rhinos. There'd be no sitting back when they're used, just get them close and let them charge. No heavy weapons allowed.

 

My BAs are a bit more sensible. I have an old 10-man unit with the traditional Missile Launcher and Flamer from 2nd edition, though I have upgraded the Sergeant to fit with 8th options and gave him a combi-Melta with a Power Sword. I'd say it's the absolute jack of all trades squad, and though I wouldn't put a flamer on a new model I've kept it on the old one given the limitations of the model. I've then got a smaller 5-man squad with combi-Melta + Sword and Grav Cannon as a smaller all-round unit.

 

I have quite a few basic bolter bodies so I'm planning to paint up a few more models with different special / heavy weapons I can swap in if wanted, along with a couple of different Sergeant builds. Then rather than have pre-set squads I can put them together however I want for different games. I also intend to add some twin-AC Razorbacks for my BA as I currently have none.

 

As I said, my Meltaguns I've moved over to Assault Squads as I like jump packs to get them in range (and to be able to fly out and still shoot if assaulted). I'll likely deep strike them behind enemy lines with a Captain, if a gap opens up to do so. I do have combi-Melta on a couple of sergeants as I face a lot of multi-wound T6+ so it gives the squad something extra to use against those.

 

For single-shot heavy weapons I'd rather run them in Dev Squads and aim to have them hold position, whereas I want my Tacticals to be effective on the move. Again, the old 2nd ed. Missile Launcher is the exception but that's due to wanting to keep the old models together. I could combat squad that old squad to have the ML sit deeper somewhere while the sergeant and flamer advance but if I was going to do that I'd rather just run them as separate squads to get the extra sergeant and unlock an extra troop slot.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Thoridon

[Thoridon]

I'll also add for anyone reading who uses Power Level that the situation is almost reversed compared to Points games.

 

With PL, when you take Tacticals you're 'paying' for 35-45 points worth of upgrades whether you use them or not so you really shouldn't keep them basic. You can go too far if you do something like grav cannon + thunder hammer + inferno pistol but sensible upgrades are required to get the cost-worth.

 

Scouts have it rougher in PL, costing more than tacticals despite being cheaper in Points. With them it's hard to get their equivalent points value unless you really max everything out, so they go from being the cheap option using Points to the more expensive niche option in PL.

 

I might well have a few models with different builds so I can swap them over between Points games and PL games. Just bear in mind that if you play using the PL system a lot of what you read regarding points efficiency goes out of the window.

[Karhedron]

Like any armies 'basic-gun' they're only worth it if you can spam them, however Marines are supposed to be elite and are indeed too expensive to be spammed without sacrificing everything else in the army.

This is the problem that arose in 2nd edition. The widespread available of saving throw modifiers meant that "elite" marines died too easily. The solution was the AP system of 3rd-7th edition which made tough units better but created an all-or-nothing approach to weapon AP values. 8th edition has resurrected this problem to some extent although it is not quite as bad as most basic weapons do not have an armour piercing value (although there are some exceptions like Necrons).

 

There is still a lot to see how 8th edition shapes up once the full set of codices are released but early signs suggest that it is an edition that favours hoards or super-elite armies. Regular MEQs seem to suffer from being the "squeezed middle". Not cheap enough to field in the numbers required for survivability nor durable enough to survive when taken in the numbers normally taken.

 

No matter how GW pile on rules like CPs and ObjSec, until it becomes cost-effective to field Tactical Marines, they will continue to be regarded as a "troop tax".

[Panzer]

 

Like any armies 'basic-gun' they're only worth it if you can spam them, however Marines are supposed to be elite and are indeed too expensive to be spammed without sacrificing everything else in the army.

This is the problem that arose in 2nd edition. The widespread available of saving throw modifiers meant that "elite" marines died too easily. The solution was the AP system of 3rd-7th edition which made tough units better but created an all-or-nothing approach to weapon AP values. 8th edition has resurrected this problem to some extent although it is not quite as bad as most basic weapons do not have an armour piercing value (although there are some exceptions like Necrons).

 

There is still a lot to see how 8th edition shapes up once the full set of codices are released but early signs suggest that it is an edition that favours hoards or super-elite armies. Regular MEQs seem to suffer from being the "squeezed middle". Not cheap enough to field in the numbers required for survivability nor durable enough to survive when taken in the numbers normally taken.

 

No matter how GW pile on rules like CPs and ObjSec, until it becomes cost-effective to field Tactical Marines, they will continue to be regarded as a "troop tax".

 

Now I have to disagree.

With the 7th edition AP system all people took were weapons with a high rate of mid-high strength fire which basically didn't care about armor saves or weapons with AP1-3. Means Space Marines basically had no saves at all in competetive matches or just got drowned in wounds. In 8th we have a lot AP-1 and AP-2 weapons but there they at least still have an armor save. In my experience Infantry in general became more durable than they used to be in 7th.

 

Luckily with the Chapter approved GW created themselves a way to adjust the core rules and Codex points/stats without having to switch to a new edition or new Codexes anymore. So if something really doesn't work we can expect things to change much faster than in the past and if we get a new Codex for it to be actually something new instead of just some numbers changing.

 

Marines can't spam Bolter so Bolter should have a better profile (AP-1 for example) to be a basic weapon worth taking but it's likely they didn't get it because Primaris got it already which are the future of Space Marine armies after all regardless of when it might happen. It just needs another single bigger release wave for them to be able to be played on their own so it could happen any time but GW could also draw it out over years so people can get used to it.

[Panzer]

By the way I just read the Grand Tournament article on WarCom.
 
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/16/the-grand-tournament-heat-1-the-roundup/
 
This list won:
Lord of War: Roboute Guilliman
HQ: Tigurius
HQ: Space Marine Captain with Teeth of Terra (relic)
Troops: 6 Tactical Squads (lascannon in each squad. Sergeants carrying chainsword and bolt pistol)
Dedicated Transport: 6 Razorbacks (Twin assault cannons)
Flyer: Stormraven Gunship (lascannon, multi-meltas, hurricane bolters)

 

Of course to a large degree thanks to Guillimans re-rolls and the Razorbacks, however 6 Tactical Squads are definitely more than minimum requirement. ^^

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Seeing as how smurfs just dominated with 6 tactical squads, I think it is a safe bet to say bring troops. ObSec just too inportant.

[the jeske]

yeah, thing is G-man and razorbacks and chapter tactics enforce that. sure you can play red marines, but they will always be worse then what marines can do.

also when an event gives you 24 pts, and then 12 from favorite army, the results can[not saying they are in this case] skewed.

Edited October 16, 2017 by the jeske

[Fahlnor]

Also worth mentioning that Lawrence - who won the tournament - is just generally an excellent player. I'm sure the list had an impact, but we've seen him before winning tournaments with what many people would consider to be sub-optimal lists.

 

Glad he got the win, though. Seems a really genuine bloke and a great ambassador for the hobby.

[The Unseen]

What makes that list work is Gman and a bunch of twin-assault cannon razorbacks.

There are almost twice as many razorback wounds as there are tacticals.

 

The tacticals are there for the objectives and a bit of tank hunting.

 

Run that list replacing Gman (aka what everyone who isn't playing ultramarine has to do), and I guarantee it won't do nearly as well. He's to cheap and to good a force multiplier, we don't have anything even close.

[Panzer]

I agree. However it would still be a good list simply because AssBacks are way too cheap for the damage they do as well.

[Indefragable]

One has to wonder if the Baal Predator will get some serious lovin’ in our Codex to make up for the laughable discrepancy compared to the Assback.

 

They are unlikely to drop the Baal 50pts, so I have to wonder if it’ll become T8 or something defensively. I would be surprised if it gets a Advance+Charge and ignore -1 To Hit on Heavy weapons boost. Or it can fire turret weapon twice ala Leman Russes.

 

As for Troops, I think cheap Scouts are the way to go until something drastic comes along.

[Blindhamster]

I'm still loving my Intercessors honestly, I run them with grenades, freebie chainsword on sergeants and regular bolt rifles, which keeps the units relatively cheap, I've tended to run them MSU so far, though a 10 man unit was quite good for the sheer weight of fire it was able to soak up.

My personal experience is that the extra wounds make them FAR more resilient (cheaper wounds per point than our other troop choices), there are things that do 2 damage a shot, but in the grand scheme of things, there aren't so many of those that it's had a huge impact. the longer range has also helped keep them effective regardless of where I've put them. They have also been able to perform the same job as assault squads as a backup melee unit, jumping in to support an existing combat when needed, as they pack almost as good a punch.

 

I still want to run pure primaris personally, but I do think Intercessors work well as troops alongside non-primaris stuff

[Panda_Saurus_Rex]

I've been running 4 units of camo cloaked scouts with boltguns and one missile launcher each. They are fantastic in that the missiles can pack a punch or just add extra bolter shots if need be. Also, that beautiful 2+ save means they survive way more than they should for what they are and can draw a lot of fire over the course of a game and aggravate my opponents.

[Bremon]

One has to wonder if the Baal Predator will get some serious lovin’ in our Codex to make up for the laughable discrepancy compared to the Assback.

 

They are unlikely to drop the Baal 50pts, so I have to wonder if it’ll become T8 or something defensively. I would be surprised if it gets a Advance+Charge and ignore -1 To Hit on Heavy weapons boost. Or it can fire turret weapon twice ala Leman Russes.

 

As for Troops, I think cheap Scouts are the way to go until something drastic comes along.

I really like the idea of ignoring the -1 to hit after moving for the Baal Pred. Doesn’t help the flamer version though.

 

Scouts; I might try 15 snipers. Bubble wrapped plague casters and a crawler-buffing chaos lord have been causing me problems as of late.

[tychobi]

By the way I just read the Grand Tournament article on WarCom.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/16/the-grand-tournament-heat-1-the-roundup/

 

This list won:

Lord of War: Roboute Guilliman

HQ: Tigurius

HQ: Space Marine Captain with Teeth of Terra (relic)

Troops: 6 Tactical Squads (lascannon in each squad. Sergeants carrying chainsword and bolt pistol)

Dedicated Transport: 6 Razorbacks (Twin assault cannons)

Flyer: Stormraven Gunship (lascannon, multi-meltas, hurricane bolters)

 

Of course to a large degree thanks to Guillimans re-rolls and the Razorbacks, however 6 Tactical Squads are definitely more than minimum requirement. ^^

This is a really boring cookie cutter gman razor spam army, and says nothing of how tactical marines perform. He could have had gretchin in those razors and done fine.  Smurf atrocities should never color your view of the facts.  We need a (living/fieldable) Primarch of our own.  

[neonmole]

I agree that it’s a pretty generic / boring smurf army, the player Lawrence (from watching his YouTube channel) would be the first to tell you that.

 

I strongly challenge that bringing back Sanguinius is a good idea though, both from a game and backstory perspective. It would completely undermine the core of what makes BA fluff what it is, it’s all predicated on the tradgedy of this death and sacrifce. We of all people as a community that love BA should not be pushing the agenda to do away with that...

[Panzer]

 

By the way I just read the Grand Tournament article on WarCom.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/16/the-grand-tournament-heat-1-the-roundup/

 

This list won:

Lord of War: Roboute Guilliman

HQ: Tigurius

HQ: Space Marine Captain with Teeth of Terra (relic)

Troops: 6 Tactical Squads (lascannon in each squad. Sergeants carrying chainsword and bolt pistol)

Dedicated Transport: 6 Razorbacks (Twin assault cannons)

Flyer: Stormraven Gunship (lascannon, multi-meltas, hurricane bolters)

 

Of course to a large degree thanks to Guillimans re-rolls and the Razorbacks, however 6 Tactical Squads are definitely more than minimum requirement. ^^

This is a really boring cookie cutter gman razor spam army, and says nothing of how tactical marines perform. He could have had gretchin in those razors and done fine.  Smurf atrocities should never color your view of the facts.  We need a (living/fieldable) Primarch of our own.  

 

Never claimed anything else.