Krieg in 8th edition... the unique units

[Withershadow]

Hey folks,

 

Since FW will probably be taking their sweet time (at bare minimum at least until after Chapter Approved by my estimation) to update their Index to be compliant with the new Guard Codex, I was wondering how folks intend to use their Krieg going forward?

 

Putting aside the RAW discussion of layering Doctrines on top of Krieg rules, Krieg already have a pretty decent "doctrine" in the works.  Our infantry ignores morale tests from shooting and have 3+ to hit, while our Leman Russes and Chimeras gain +1 to their saves vs. weapons S4 or lower.  The issue is the infantry pays a 20% premium for the rule, while Russes/Chimeras pay 10 points and the rule does not apply to any other Krieg vehicles.  We also lose out on the two best orders, and unique stratagems.  We do get our power axes and mauls... but I am now hesitant to actually kitbash any in case we follow suit with the codex and lose access to them.

 

Considering the above, it seems best to play the core infantry as Cadians if you're running a Siege Regiment, or Tallarn if you're running an Assault Brigade.  The latter seems particularly fun with special weapon squads dropping out of Valkyries/Vendettas.

 

That said, our unique unit entries still seem to pack quite a bit of punch.

 

The most obvious are Death Riders... these guys are simply amazing for 16 points each.  I have 25 of them myself, and wouldn't mind having more!  With a command squad (sad they can't take a regimental standard), they can pop up out of nowhere, the terrain ignoring rule actually comes in surprisingly handy, and they continue being a threat in melee in non-charging rounds with 4 attacks per model (2 at S3 and 2 at S4).  I would like to ask people's opinions about the commander and the commissar models these guys can take.  The Commissar seems largely useless, being more than 3 Riders by himself before any equipment.  As Krieg they already don't care about shooting morale, and if you keep the units 5-strong, you don't really care about melee morale either (the commissar would only be of use if you've lost exactly 3 of the models, and roll a 6 for battle shock... in which case he saves one model).  

 

The Commander is a tad more interesting.  With a power maul and demolition charge, he's 47 points (so still about 3 riders), but at least provides a thematic HQ choice if you want to run your Riders in a separate detachment, and brings an order to boot.  The question is whether the order is worthwhile?  The only ones that seem useful are Duty Onto Death (take a last attack if you die in melee), or Fix Bayonets for a total of 8 attacks per model in turns where you're already engaged.  The former doesn't seem fantastic compared to just bringing more guys, but the latter may be somewhat useful to finish up prolonged melees where you no longer have the lances.  I have a Commissar Death Rider model from some event, but I think he may be best used as the Commander.  I am basically trying to figure out if it's best to run command squad + 4 5-man Rider teams, or command squad + commander + 3 7-man Rider teams, since that's the maximum you can outflank.

 

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Grenadiers compared poorly to Scions before the Codex, but now it's a little better.  The grenadiers are a point cheaper, and get cheaper plasmaguns (for now), and don't suffer the morale issues that Scions do.  On the other hand, you don't have the two best orders for them to double hotshot lasgun firepower or re-roll 1s for overcharged plasma guns, but at least appropriately enough you can use the Grenadiers stratagem to toss a bunch of krak or frag grenades.  Yarrick can help here with his re-rolls, but I think he's better with Engineers.  These guys have some play to them if you're investing in transports anyway, but with the costs on plasmaguns likely to change, you're probably better off continuing to use these guys as super fancy Scions.

 

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Engineers... I honestly don't know if these guys or the Death Riders are my favorite.  I am still somewhat steamed about not being able to put them in Hades drills, but they frankly work better with some character support.  Yarrick is amazing here, to re-roll all those 1s for the shotguns.  Plasmaguns are the clearly best choice here, but I built all mine with melta-guns and don't intent for that to change (also keeping all the weapons as assault gives me the option of advancing if I need to without investing an order).  Add a demo charge, and these guys are absolutely wrecking shop coming out of Chimeras.  With a priest and maybe regimental standard in tow, they are best run in 5-man squads for power-axe Sgts that swing 4 times each and a bunch of demo charges.  If you don't want to over-invest in support, a Field Marshall can give them bring it down (for effectively preferred enemy with their shotguns... hit on 3s re-roll 1s, wound on 2s re-roll 1s).  With Memento Moris our Field Marshals are pretty badass, although unless I am mistaken it does nothing against attacks that do a set number of wounds, only ones that re-roll.  I don't like heavy weapons because 2 shotguns are better than either heavy flamers or mole mortars (and unlike Guard HWTs, they don't get to keep even 1 shotgun).  My dream is that the eventual FW index will have Engineer Heavy Weapon Squads, where you can bring 3 of either weapon.  Now that would be fun.

 

 

Anyone else have some experiences or thoughts to share about the unique units of the greatest of all Regiments?

[Mitchverr]

First, I would say that grenadiers are still too expencive in my view, if the heavy stubber was an assault machinegun, I would say they are worth taking with a pair of those, but sadly its heavy.

 

Secondly, I would say you hit the nail on the head, engineers are pretty much our go to infantry this time round, regulars are fine too, but expencive (for now at least) at 10 points more per squad then regular guard. I would say however dont forget (if the stratagems apply to our guys) the ability of the grenadier stratagem for engineers, if you have a 10 man unit you can throw 10 acid grenades at some poor souls squad which I will 100% bet nobody will expect to suddenly happen because its a weapon that only engineers carry, at 2+ to wound if not a vehicle and what AP-2 D3 damage, this is going to hurt pretty much everything without vehicle keyword.

 

As for death riders, i loved them in 7th, still not trialled in 8th, simply expencive to me, I only have 15 so it isnt exactly a wall to charge with, thinking of picking up a few more so I cant comment.

 

 

Also dont forget you can bring heavy flamer squads, they aint engineers, but they are a thing, our book doesnt stop that unless the FAQ did :)

 

 

I really wish grenadiers were a point cheaper, but oh well. I hope that FW make the centaur (and assault centaur!) have the ability to fire out of them (like in the past), IMO this would make them fairly useful, though an engineer squad of shotguns would likely be just as good or better inside it lol.

[Withershadow]

I thought about acid grenades, but honestly I do not think they compare to just taking two shots with carcass rounds.

 

The Centaur may have some game if you put in a squad with 2 flamers, heavy flamer, and plasma pistol.  You can disembark after the scout move, and cover quite a bit of ground.  Maybe a suicidal attempt unless you double up on it and maybe deliver some other stuff via ambush/drill/deep strike/etc.

[Tirak]

So I'm running a Vanguard Detachment I've lovingly called Krieger Surprise (props to Mitchverr for pointing me in its direction). By adding in a simple Vanguard Detachment, you can have one of hell of a sucker punch. Marshall with The Dagger of Tu'Sakh, two Death Korps Commissar's and a ten man engineer squad. The Commissars cannot apply the leadership buff, but still give Summary Execution, and are a point cheaper to boot because unlike normal Commissars, they can take a Chainsword (No Cost) and a Laspistol (No Cost). The Engineers get to sneak in the backline, close enough where their 12in shotguns can have the range on something important and blow it to tiny bits. My version currently has Plasma Pistols on the Marshall and Sergeant, and a pair of Plasma Guns on the Engineers to give them flexibility.

 

The fun thing about this little detachment, is that it fits onto most any Guard Army because it's so cheap. Some folks may balk at losing the Leadership 8 buff, but as I attach my Commissars to Conscript Blobs and almost always lose at least 1 even if I had the buff, I find that the loss of the buff to be well worth fitting in the detachment and the gaining of a free point to spend elsewhere. You don't need to deploy them until you're good and ready because it's a rather small fraction of your army, allowing you to hold it over their head for as long as needed. If DKoK gets Take Aim back, this will become very powerful. The only downside is that the Plasma Guns will shoot up in price as Engineers are BS3+, but even with the additional tax, they should make up their points.

 

This isn't a full Krieg list, but it does demonstrate a way to slip Krieg into your army for something small and specialized.

[Withershadow]

The dagger only allows for bearer and ONE unit to ambush, so the commissars would have to stay at home.  If you want to add some outflanking Death Riders to this, you could bring a Death Rider Commissar for his leadership and summary execution bonuses. 

 

I do not bother with a plasma pistol on Engineer Sgts, because the Engineer's shotgun is better than a plasma pistol. It's wasted points as far as I'm concerned. 

[Mitchverr]

The commissars in that force stay with the main army applying blam to the cowards in conscript blobs, they dont move with the ambush team

 

As for the grenade thing, it all depends on the situation, if you go up against anything witha 2+ save or isnt worth mortal wounding your own guys, it can potentially be a useful asset to use (i think on a 2+ creature the grenades are slightly more efficient and deal on avg 1-2 more damage and also dont kill your own guys, so its a very speciifc time it helps, but as i said you dont risk your guys killing themselves).

 

 

 

Lastly on adding death riders to the group, it would increase the points cost dramatically (i would argue you need the commander for the command squad which you need for outflank, which builds cost up high).

Edited October 10, 2017 by Mitchverr

[Tirak]

The dagger only allows for bearer and ONE unit to ambush, so the commissars would have to stay at home.  If you want to add some outflanking Death Riders to this, you could bring a Death Rider Commissar for his leadership and summary execution bonuses. 

 

I do not bother with a plasma pistol on Engineer Sgts, because the Engineer's shotgun is better than a plasma pistol. It's wasted points as far as I'm concerned.

 

The Commissars are filler. You're going to have at least 2 in your army anyway, so it helps make up the detachment without wasting points. They go with your army, thus the section about the leadership buff not applying.

 

The point of the Plasma Pistol is flexibility. It allows you to threaten light vehicles and units with a good armor save. Since a lot of units that are worth assassinating will have a good armor save, the plasma guns and pistols will help break through that defense.

 

This detachment is meant to be as cheap as possible while still being effective to add onto a conventional army. Adding Death Riders does not further that goal.

[Khornestar]

The only unit that makes me want to play Krieg is the heavy weapons team armed with heavy flamers. I have a unit of 10 teams for my Warp Cult 30k army, and there is simply no other way to run them as a unit in 40k, because apparently only veterans and command squads are brave enough to pick up a heavy flamer. 

 

I'm thinking they'd work well enough out of a Chimera or a Valkyrie, though 3 heavy flamers isn't really all that special, considering how many our vehicles can pack. Still not sure what's best. 

[PliskinAJ]

I'm going to run my DKOK straight index. The only thing I plan on doing is running my Russes with the new Grinding Advance rule. 

[Tirak]

As long as you only apply the new rule to Codex Russ variants that is fine. If you field Imperial Armour Russ patterns, they have their own distinct Grinding Advance rule, at least until the FAQ.

As long as you only apply the new rule to Codex Russ variants that is fine. If you field Imperial Armour Russ patterns, they have their own distinct Grinding Advance rule, at least until the FAQ.

[Die4Emprah]

My 8th builds were basically

death riders , +1 using a command squad unit

inf command +squad
2 platoon commands + squads

4 inf squads (flamers)
6 heavy weapons teams (las)
3 earth shaker batteries

I've been using my models so far as "Valhallan" taking advantage of the halved morale deaths, the halved armor decay.
I was really hoping to make use of the "send the next wave" last game i played, but my enemy never wiped any of my squads. (Sorry, not sorry?)
Also, the order that allows you to shoot into a melee is right up my alley. 

[seriade]

So I'm running a Vanguard Detachment I've lovingly called Krieger Surprise (props to Mitchverr for pointing me in its direction). By adding in a simple Vanguard Detachment, you can have one of hell of a sucker punch. Marshall with The Dagger of Tu'Sakh, two Death Korps Commissar's and a ten man engineer squad. 

Until a FAQ comes out you can not do this the DKoK are a seperate army like the dark angels or blood angels they do not have anything to do with Codex Astra Militarium you can only use the stuff allowed by tthe forgeworld index.

[Mitchverr]

 

So I'm running a Vanguard Detachment I've lovingly called Krieger Surprise (props to Mitchverr for pointing me in its direction). By adding in a simple Vanguard Detachment, you can have one of hell of a sucker punch. Marshall with The Dagger of Tu'Sakh, two Death Korps Commissar's and a ten man engineer squad. 

Until a FAQ comes out you can not do this the DKoK are a seperate army like the dark angels or blood angels they do not have anything to do with Codex Astra Militarium you can only use the stuff allowed by tthe forgeworld index.

 

 

The item says astra militarum can use it, they are astra militarum . I dont see what is wrong here. They are infantry, they share the same <regiment>

 

And as I have said in other threads, i believe the astra militarum book has been written in a different way to the space marine book, meaning to use it for examples isnt effective.

 

Dont have anything to do with it? They draw half their units from the book lol, there is NO rule saying you cant draw from the main book for stratagems, relics, etc.

 

edit

 

I believe on the heirlooms page, it says astra militarum character, which marshals are.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Mitchverr

[Tirak]

 

So I'm running a Vanguard Detachment I've lovingly called Krieger Surprise (props to Mitchverr for pointing me in its direction). By adding in a simple Vanguard Detachment, you can have one of hell of a sucker punch. Marshall with The Dagger of Tu'Sakh, two Death Korps Commissar's and a ten man engineer squad. 

Until a FAQ comes out you can not do this the DKoK are a seperate army like the dark angels or blood angels they do not have anything to do with Codex Astra Militarium you can only use the stuff allowed by tthe forgeworld index.

 

 

You are wrong.

 

Codex: Astra Militarum (8th ed.), Page 138

 

 

If your army is led by an ASTRA MILITARUM Warlord, then before the battle you may give one of the following Heirlooms of Conquest to

an ASTRA MILITARUM CHARACTER. Named characters such as Lord Castellan Creed already have one or more artefacts, and cannot be

given any of the following relics.

 

 

Imperial Armour: Astra Militarum, Page 57, Death Korps Marshal datasheet entry, Faction Keywords

 

 

IMPERIUM, ASTRA MILITARUM, DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG

 

 

 

Imperial Armour: Astra Militarum, Page 57, Death Korps Marshal datasheet entry, Keywords

CHARACTER, INFANTRY, OFFICER, DEATH KORPS MARSHAL

 

[seriade]

The dagger requires a unit with the <regiment> keyword.  The Dkok do not have a regiment keyword they have a faction keyword being Dkok and it is specially called a faction keyword in the index and not a regiment keyword in fact you are specifically told to remove the regiment keyword and replace it with the faction keyword.

 

I do not get the desire by multiple people here to take 2 completely different army lists and combine them for the sake of combining them into some hybrid of the rules to obtain an advantage they clearly are not supposed to be recieving.

[Withershadow]

There is no unit in the game with a <Regiment> keyword.  Blank spaces must be filled, and in this case they are filled with Death Korps of Krieg.  Now relics are not okay? 

 

As the rules tell us, you must nominate which regiment that unit is from and replace the keyword in every instance on that unit's datasheet.  By the asinine logic presented in the argument, no one in the book is allowed to take a relic, because they are only available to <Regiment> units, and by the time you build the list that keyword is already filled in.  If you're arguing that an army of Astra Militarum units, published in the Astra Militarum index, and able to draw from the Astra Militarum datasheets where they replace <Regiment> with Death Korps of Krieg specifically as written in the rules... if after all that, Death Korps are still not somehow an Astra Militarum regiment... I... I don't even know what to say. 

Edited October 12, 2017 by duz_
Moderating is for the Mod team

[Lord_Caerolion]

The dagger requires a unit with the <regiment> keyword. The Dkok do not have a regiment keyword they have a faction keyword being Dkok and it is specially called a faction keyword in the index and not a regiment keyword in fact you are specifically told to remove the regiment keyword and replace it with the faction keyword.

 

I do not get the desire by multiple people here to take 2 completely different army lists and combine them for the sake of combining them into some hybrid of the rules to obtain an advantage they clearly are not supposed to be recieving.

But... that's exactly what happens with all other <regiment> keywords too? "You then simply replace the <regiment> Keyword in every instance on that units datasheet with the name of your chosen regiment."

 

Alls it means in the rules for the Dagger is that it becomes specific to the regiment if the bearer. Cadian model takes it? It affects Cadian models. Catachan bearer? It affects Catachans. We're told that, in regards to units taken from the Index, and thus from the Codex too, that DKoK armies replace the <regiment> keyword with Death Korps of Krieg, which is therefore their regiment, and is used as such for rules that affect <regiment> models. It's really not that hard.

[Mitchverr]

The dagger requires a unit with the <regiment> keyword.  The Dkok do not have a regiment keyword they have a faction keyword being Dkok and it is specially called a faction keyword in the index and not a regiment keyword in fact you are specifically told to remove the regiment keyword and replace it with the faction keyword.

 

I do not get the desire by multiple people here to take 2 completely different army lists and combine them for the sake of combining them into some hybrid of the rules to obtain an advantage they clearly are not supposed to be recieving.

 

"regiment" is REPLACED in all situations, so no model on the table has this keyword if you want to be that way lol. On the page "soldiers of the imperium" it specifically says "some datasheets specify which regiment the unit is drawn from" and gives the example of sgt harker. If DKK are not <regiment> then neither is harker, nor creed, nor tempestus, nor pask, nor kell, nor so on and so forth.

 

Not to mention the significant number of <regiment> units in the army, if you say they cant because they aint <regiment>, then whats your answer to using stratagems? Because half the units come from the book, does it only apply for half the units?

 

edit: I honestly dont know where people get this belief that the death korps are not astra militarum and that they have no "regiment" keyword application.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Mitchverr

[Feral_80]

I still cannot understand why GW went on to complicate things with these keywords - great idea, poor implementation. Apart from rule-lawyers, not every player is a veteran and not all are supposed to be familiar with what is or is not a regiment/chapter/etc. Some names/situations might be genuinely confusing, especially those coming from FW (but not only those).

 

I think the <regiment> (<chapter>, etc.) rule would have worked better and smoother if any instance had included the word itself. Thus, you must replace 'regiment' with 'regiment: Cadian', 'regiment: DKK', etc. etc. This would have clarified 1) what exactly replaces what, and 2) what category keyword that replacement stands for. Also, it would have made it unnecessary to debate some attempts to exploit rules: you could freely invent a 'regiment: Ultramarines' if you really wanted to, and no rules hole would have been possible since the Ultramarines doctrine would only apply to 'chapter: Ultramarines', which only Marines could take of course since no other army has a <chapter> keyword to fill.

 

Ah well, GW.

[Halfpint100]

I still cannot understand why GW went on to complicate things with these keywords - great idea, poor implementation. Apart from rule-lawyers, not every player is a veteran and not all are supposed to be familiar with what is or is not a regiment/chapter/etc. Some names/situations might be genuinely confusing, especially those coming from FW (but not only those).

 

I think the <regiment> (<chapter>, etc.) rule would have worked better and smoother if any instance had included the word itself. Thus, you must replace 'regiment' with 'regiment: Cadian', 'regiment: DKK', etc. etc. This would have clarified 1) what exactly replaces what, and 2) what category keyword that replacement stands for. Also, it would have made it unnecessary to debate some attempts to exploit rules: you could freely invent a 'regiment: Ultramarines' if you really wanted to, and no rules hole would have been possible since the Ultramarines doctrine would only apply to 'chapter: Ultramarines', which only Marines could take of course since no other army has a <chapter> keyword to fill.

 

Ah well, GW.

 

It is a tricky one, one that only an FAQ will fix for good. Personally, I would say that they are AM, but they have their own orders and equipment and stuff. I can see both sides of the arguement here and I do not know which i agree with most. 

 

DKOK are AM, so should gain access to the relics and strats

But they are from a different book with unique equipment, orders and abilities already. 

 

Ah i dunno. I am just hoping for a FAQ in order to solve this heated discussion. 

[Silas7]

I wish dkok commissar could be lord commissar, they seem to be less prominent to the dkok than other armies.

[Galron]

Common sense should apply at this point. We all know that both DKoK and Elysians are regiments of the AM. While it was funny and hilariously trollish to let them have both standard doctrines and their own special rules, we know what the end results are going to be. They are regiments with their own rules which will turn into doctrines when they get around to it. We know its how they are going to be FAQ'd. The generic artifacts and stratagems can be used with them and maybe we will get lucky and get our own too. Arguing about what is common sense is rather trollish behavior.

[seriade]

The problem is not that that until there is that beloved faq everyone wants Dkok and the drop troops are basically red headed stepchild of the imperial guard.  My argument was basically until your told yes you have to make the assumption no.  The Dkok are curently in the same place as multiple other armies atm they do not have a codex and do not get magic access to the codex as it does not represent their army.  Yes the two are related but so are the thousand sons,  the dark angels, the blood angels, and the space wolves from their respective codxes they are all still index army's and regardless of other things until that index gets turned into a codex or chapter approved comes out if you want to take things for the Dkok from the codex you need to be playing them as a codex army and not there index.

[The Pounder]

This sounds a little like wanting your cake and eat it.

You want the Krieg rules and special units etc but also want the benefits from the Astra Militarum too.

I can understand why people would want to do this but I'm sure Forge World will release an update at some point.

Alternatively you can include any units you like in an Imperium army. I run Primaris with my Krieg til I build up my pts total.

I just simply don't expect my Space Marines to buff my Guard and vice versa.

[Tirak]

This sounds a little like wanting your cake and eat it.

You want the Krieg rules and special units etc but also want the benefits from the Astra Militarum too.

I can understand why people would want to do this but I'm sure Forge World will release an update at some point.

Alternatively you can include any units you like in an Imperium army. I run Primaris with my Krieg til I build up my pts total.

I just simply don't expect my Space Marines to buff my Guard and vice versa.

Because Space Marines are not Astra Militarum. The argument you're making is like saying Guilman doesn't buff Conscripts because they come from two different books. The keyword is what's important. DKoK has their regiment keyword filled in. In the same way that every other regiment does. It baffles me that some people don't understand what imperial armour is. Do you think that normal guard armies can't make use of the Leman Russ conqueror because it came in imperial armor? Such a viewpoint is both absurd and not supported by the evidence in both the codex and imperial armour.