Success with 'undivided' Chaos

[Prot]

So since the codex dropped I played a handfull of games with World Eaters and then Black Legion and the last handful have been with Red Corsairs.

 

I feel like predominantly the army lends itself to assault with specialized support of shooting and psykery.

 

Sticking I think the codex has been challenging and I admit Deathguard are a darn good force and I imagine they are enticing a lot of Chaos players to pledge allyto Nurgle, but I have resisted.

 

The thing that gets me is I am finding myself out assaulted on occasion by Orks and even Deathguard. I am thinking of pulling back from assault because I can't counter their longevity or in the case of Orks the sheer amount of interrupts in destructive and most competitive Orks are making Brigades and have no real issue interrupting and stampeding Berzerkers squads

 

What makes this weird with Red Corsairs is I find it's far easier to get to grips with your opponent but the likes of Orks/Deathguard cannot be dealt with this way. So it's tempting to sprinkle in more Slaanesh Obliterators or something but then you dilute your CC and play into the hands of stuff like Astra, loyalist marines, etc.

 

So what have you guys found working in this situation? I'm not sure what direction to go in... Termies? (ie: something well rounded)?

[Doom Herald]

Plasma Raptors have been devastatingly effective against all enemies in my games, raptor striked in as 2 5-man squads with a Jump Lord wielding plasma as well, always at overcharged capacity. They work best right before the Berzerkers charge in. Remember, when you charge, Blood For The Blood God hits before non chargers in addition to the first set of attacks. Many people disbelieved this when i did it, but its even in the FAQ. Also, I have been using Night Lord rules with the warlord trait that makes them roll 2 morale rolls at the same time and keep the worst. If you can hit with a devestating enough initial onslaught morale will often finish the enemy, even space marines. I also keep a Dark Apostle with my Berzerkers for the re-rolls and morale buff, if you have the points placing an exalted champion with them in addition makes them truly devastating.

 

The big thing about Chaos Marines is they excel at mid range, but are only proficient in meele, with some notable exceptions. It's tacticaly combining the two together that makes Chaos Marines most effective.

[the jeske]

That seems a lot of points to kill one squads. 2 squads of raptors, at least 1 squad or zerkers, a lord, an apostol and a possible exalted champion. and th coordinate those you need transports too. Am not sure that killing a chaff of conscripts or minimax tactical is worth the investment.

 

As the asked question goes, the AL stuff is the best, not just out of the undivided but out of the whole csm codex stuff. Works great with good or ok units, giving them extra range and favorable deployment most of the time. And it even makes weaker unit like zerkers etc better. Shoting wise terminators are nice, as are havocks, csm are as always to be avoided, with FW all of this gets even better, but in general FW rules are not well balanced at the moment . It is important to point ot though that a chaos soup list, aside for maybe smite spam, will always be weaker then the same list done with loyalists, as chaos lacks some cheap key units imperials have[razorbacks for example]. So for maximum efficiency  you could play AL painted models with ultramarine rules.

[Doom Herald]

The Raptors arent just for conscripts and chaff, they brutalize everything, even heavy units. A 5 man raptor squad with 2 plasma guns and 2 plasma pistols is 125 points and at a 12" range pumps out 6 supercharged shots for a potential 12 wounds. Keeping a Lord next to them lets you reroll those nasty 1s and supercharged plasma has a high enough strength and AP that only tough units survive turn 1 of 2 such units and a Lord dropping within 12" of them. And if they do, the charge and morale usually finishes them off. After the first target is hit, they can switch to midrange kiting if needed.

 

As for Berzerkers, i see a lot of Chainaxes on them, but if you have characters giving them rerolls on hit and/or wound the chainsword is nice considering Blood For The Blood God makes that 1 extra attack really 2.

 

That said, Alpha Legion does have damn good rules. Getting to deep strike in some solid Chosen units or even Berserkers is nice.

[Prot]

Plasma Raptors have been devastatingly effective against all enemies in my games, raptor striked in as 2 5-man squads with a Jump Lord wielding plasma as well, always at overcharged capacity. They work best right before the Berzerkers charge in. Remember, when you charge, Blood For The Blood God hits before non chargers in addition to the first set of attacks. Many people disbelieved this when i did it, but its even in the FAQ.

 

The big thing about Chaos Marines is they excel at mid range, but are only proficient in meele, with some notable exceptions. It's tacticaly combining the two together that makes Chaos Marines most effective.

 

- What about plasma on Zerkers? Has anyone tried it yet? Just not worth it? I like the Raptor idea. Right now I am using a min squad of Warp Talons and I really like them this edition. I was gimping myself taking them in 7th but in 8th I feel like (especially when Tau get a codex) they are gold against certain units and builds that are anticipating assault. But yea, I may try Raptors.

 

- I agree, the mid range is the sweet spot. It is partially what dew me to Red Corsairs... they get there pretty quick. Although 98.7% of my Chaos collection is painted Red, I'm seriously considering Alpha... I just can't see doing another repaint. ugh.

 

 

The Raptors arent just for conscripts and chaff, they brutalize everything, even heavy units. A 5 man raptor squad with 2 plasma guns and 2 plasma pistols is 125 points and at a 12" range pumps out 6 supercharged shots for a potential 12 wounds. Keeping a Lord next to them lets you reroll those nasty 1s and supercharged plasma has a high enough strength and AP that only tough units survive turn 1 of 2 such units and a Lord dropping within 12" of them. And if they do, the charge and morale usually finishes them off. After the first target is hit, they can switch to midrange kiting if needed.

 

 

 

125 is a darn good price. I have about 10 sitting at home.. but again they are red. lol But since I've been playing Red Corsairs I've been using Huron for the extra CP. Most of the army is marked with Slaanesh with a Nurgle Lt.

 

Basically what I am find that I like is:

 

- DP with Maelific Talons (sometimes with Nurgle Psychics)

 

- Huron is okay, not great. His hand flamer is decent, he's getting off 2 powers a turn... but he's a bad warlord.

 

- Red Corsairs do get me to the dance fast, but against certain opponents it's a total waste because they out assault me.

 

- Oblits with MoS - double shooting with or without a DP along side.

 

- Cultists... always cultists. They aren't good, but less bad than CSM and allow points for the fun stuff.

 

- Termies. Hit and miss. Lots of points... some games they just disappear. Somewhat unreliable but always on the pricey side.

 

- Nurgle LT with poison relic nurgle blade is actually a sleeper in CC.

 

- Berzkerkers. I was up to 3 squads with World Eaters... didn't work. I was up to 2 squads with Red Corsairs, I think I'd go back down to 1 squad. If they don't go first, I find CC armies tear them apart too easily... even 30 boyz (which is quite common in my meta).

 

- Spawn. I think these guys are under used. No they won't win you a spelling bee, but they can tie up a lot of junk.

 

Things I want to love but can't seem to make work:

 

1. Vehicles/walkers. I was very excited at the reduction of points in the Defiler. This thing is designed a bit of a mess. In hard fought games, it still feels too unfocused and with Red Corsairs it has trouble working well for me. Same goes for Maulerfiends. I know some people love them. I can't get them to really work.

 

2. Possessed. They got extra wounds... .they are really a decent choice with Red Corsairs, but that bloody random attack roll is just so ridiculous.

[Fhanados]

The Raptors arent just for conscripts and chaff, they brutalize everything, even heavy units. A 5 man raptor squad with 2 plasma guns and 2 plasma pistols is 125 points and at a 12" range pumps out 6 supercharged shots for a potential 12 wounds.

 

Unless I'm missing something a Raptor unit can only have 2 plasma guns OR 2 plasma pistols, not both? I'm going off the index here but it states that up to 2 raptors can replace their Bolt Pistol and Chainsword with either a Plasma Pistol and Chainsword, or an item from the Special Weapons list.

 

That said the Champ can take a combi-plasma or plasma pistol, so you can still end up with 3 plasma weapons of some kind per unit.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

The Raptors arent just for conscripts and chaff, they brutalize everything, even heavy units. A 5 man raptor squad with 2 plasma guns and 2 plasma pistols is 125 points and at a 12" range pumps out 6 supercharged shots for a potential 12 wounds.

 

Unless I'm missing something a Raptor unit can only have 2 plasma guns OR 2 plasma pistols, not both? I'm going off the index here but it states that up to 2 raptors can replace their Bolt Pistol and Chainsword with either a Plasma Pistol and Chainsword, or an item from the Special Weapons list.

 

That said the Champ can take a combi-plasma or plasma pistol, so you can still end up with 3 plasma weapons of some kind per unit.

 

The champ can actually "John Woo" Plasma Pistols if he wants by replacing both his Bolt Pistol and Chainsword. However, just taking a Combi-Plasma would probably be better, as it leaves room for a power weapon or even something cheap like a chainaxe, along with extending the Champion's threat range to 24 inches. The only time I could see the two pistols working out is in a case where you want to stay in combat and maximize shooting that can be done there....however, since Raptors fly, they can just back out and fire.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Plasma Raptors have been devastatingly effective against all enemies in my games, raptor striked in as 2 5-man squads with a Jump Lord wielding plasma as well, always at overcharged capacity. They work best right before the Berzerkers charge in. Remember, when you charge, Blood For The Blood God hits before non chargers in addition to the first set of attacks. Many people disbelieved this when i did it, but its even in the FAQ. Also, I have been using Night Lord rules with the warlord trait that makes them roll 2 morale rolls at the same time and keep the worst. If you can hit with a devestating enough initial onslaught morale will often finish the enemy, even space marines. I also keep a Dark Apostle with my Berzerkers for the re-rolls and morale buff, if you have the points placing an exalted champion with them in addition makes them truly devastating.

 

The big thing about Chaos Marines is they excel at mid range, but are only proficient in meele, with some notable exceptions. It's tacticaly combining the two together that makes Chaos Marines most effective.

And remember, the Berzerkers get to FIGHT twice. Each time you fight, you can Pile in. So don't forget to declare extra charge targets even if they are on the other side of the unit you're going to slam into, then you can pile in, fight, wipe a unit, pile into a different unit, and fight. Since you charged, you are allowed to pile in even if there are no enemy within 1 inch when the opportunity comes up. Sure you'll take more overwatch, but it's usually worth it.

 

As others have said, GW specifically stated in an FAQ that charging units that can swing twice still count as charging on the second swing, and therefore get to go before enemies on the second round too. It's on pg. 4 of the Rulebook FAQ and Berzerkers are used as a very specific example.

 

For dealing with Orks, I'd use Huron's staple unit: Bikes. 10 Chaos Bikes can put out 40 combi-bolter shots at 12 inches, with varying numbers of additional shots based on what the riders are carrying. That tends to make mobs of Boyz vaporize, especially if you spend for Veterans of the Long War and have a Lord nearby at the same point of attack (though not necessarily engaging the same unit. Make them Slaanesh bikers and dump out 80 shots if you want.

[Doom Herald]

 

You're right about the Raptor Champion. I take 2 pistols because they are are slightly cheaper than a combi-plasma and can still be fired in close range if needed. They are dedicated midrange with the ability to charge in to clean up or provide the leadership debuff (i play Night Lord rules) to units my Berzerkers have engaged, so i am not concerned with the meele weapons, which are more points. I have the setup like i do to run lean on points and because it fits my particular playstyle. I could definitely see taking the combi and a power weapon as a more viable option in most other cases though.

 

Someone asked about plasma pistols on the Berzerkers, i run max plasma on them as well. They are effective but not spectacular. If you have enough bodies in the unit they are worth taking.

Edited October 11, 2017 by ThanatosMalleus

[Doom Herald]

The only way i would run possessed is next to Be'lakor, maybe other princes, or next to a Nurgle Daemons Psyker for the healing power especially with Bile in the army.

 

I think DAEMON marines have a lot of strange synergy potential that no one is trying out, atleast where i play. If i can get the money, a Nurgle Daeminkin style army focusing on Daemon Engines and DAEMON marines would be the next army i would make for the durability.

[the jeske]

The Raptors arent just for conscripts and chaff, they brutalize everything, even heavy units. A 5 man raptor squad with 2 plasma guns and 2 plasma pistols is 125 points and at a 12" range pumps out 6 supercharged shots for a potential 12 wounds. Keeping a Lord next to them lets you reroll those nasty 1s and supercharged plasma has a high enough strength and AP that only tough units survive turn 1 of 2 such units and a Lord dropping within 12" of them. And if they do, the charge and morale usually finishes them off. After the first target is hit, they can switch to midrange kiting if needed.

 

As for Berzerkers, i see a lot of Chainaxes on them, but if you have characters giving them rerolls on hit and/or wound the chainsword is nice considering Blood For The Blood God makes that 1 extra attack really 2.

 

That said, Alpha Legion does have damn good rules. Getting to deep strike in some solid Chosen units or even Berserkers is nice.

with the AL legion trait maybe. if you go first, but your using NL. So this means they have to cross the table. this means you would more or less have to play on a labiryth style table with nothing, LoS blocking terrain. otherwise they do not get in to range to use those weapons.

Unless you want to to put an argument that they work as deep strike alfa strike units. Then yes they can potentialy kill stuff, if the other army is a an elite one, non assasin and doesn't run chaff. And running chaff against alfa strike units is like the basic of the basic stuff in 8th. It is what makes csm suck as troops comparing to cultists. And when I say they have to deal with chaff like conscripts, I mean that they do not efficiently counter them.

 

On the zerker side of stuff. I do know their rules. I question the viability of them being to able always get the charge of and always reach melee. They do nothing outside of melee, which means points being put in to stuff that has down times of doing nothing, and if they get charged they fold like every [well almost] other unit in the entire game.

[Doom Herald]

I believe i did say early they use Raptor Strike to drop in. You drop them, hit major targets or soften up large targets for the berzerkers, who are traveling via transport. They disembark to ensure charging in the same turn. Raptors move 12" and so should have no problem being in range after. There are simple fixes to your issues.

 

Also, why is the Alpha Legion strategem ok if Raptor Strike is less so? They function literally the same, except Forward Operatives costs command points. Or were you refering to the penalty to hit?

Edited October 11, 2017 by ThanatosMalleus

[Scourged]

With the Alpha strategem, the infiltration happens before the movement (or really any) phase. So yeah, you'll have to be 9 inches away... But then you can move like normal and get a much easier charge. Or if not charge, you can set up some heavy weapons in deadly range and fire with no penalty (since you haven't moved, only "revealed your position"). This option and more, for any infantry unit that could not otherwise get that close turn one.

 

So for Raptors, the usefulness varies. If you're just dropping in to be a bully with plasma, it may not matter. But if you are trying to charge, it makes all the difference.

[Doom Herald]

With the Alpha strategem, the infiltration happens before the movement (or really any) phase. So yeah, you'll have to be 9 inches away... But then you can move like normal and get a much easier charge. Or if not charge, you can set up some heavy weapons in deadly range and fire with no penalty (since you haven't moved, only "revealed your position"). This option and more, for any infantry unit that could not otherwise get that close turn one.

 

So for Raptors, the usefulness varies. If you're just dropping in to be a bully with plasma, it may not matter. But if you are trying to charge, it makes all the difference.

Gotcha, ill have to take a closer look at it.

[Prot]

Well thanks for all the suggestions and thoughts guys. I'm about to try another game today. Some changes I a, making which are both good and bad, for various reasons:

 

Adding my Decimator with heavy flamer claw and Soulburner petard- he may be better with Red Corsairs over my Thousand Sons list

 

- opting out of one squad of World Eaters, and adding my possessed back in. I hear the internet cringing over this decision, but I'm including...

 

- Fabulous bile. I've talked about using him with Renegades for ages and still haven't tried it.

 

- removing 3 predators in favour of the mentioned Decimator and a second squad of Obliterators.

 

- adding 5 Raptors with some plasma

 

- putting about 5 vanilla bikes back in the army for dakka and a power axe champ.

 

No clue if this will actually change my results but it should be good for comic relief.

[Iron Skull Mask]

Funny, I also fielded my newly painted Decimator with that configuation just this week. Had him drop in with a Dreadclaw and score first blood in cc by smashing a laserdestroyer tank. He then got snuffed by Guilliman in return, but it was an amazing 1st game with him. I have to say I would rather arm him with a butcher cannon and/or a stormlaser because I felt the soulburner didn't do enough for its 60 points. 

 

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk33/Therrous/XXX/20171011_211127.jpg

 

 

On topic: I think this edition is even shootier than the last one. CC is extra inefficient as long as you don't kill what you charge or surround it so it can't escape. The option to fall back robbs cc of its use to tie up enemy units. So the usual thing to happen is that you charge weaker targets with your melee experts and if there are survirvors, they will fall back and your melee experts will be gunned down. And besides characters, DP, Dreadnoughts and Berserkers are the only real melee experts we have (Warp Talons and Mutilators still don't cut it imo). So CSM should definitely stay on the shooty side of things with Havocs, Forgefiends and Dreads with lascannon and rocket launcher and even Obliterators (fielded the, in that game and they are not half bad shooting). Especially with our stratagems and the prescience psychic power our shooting has more than decent potential. When you add a Renegade Knight or a Fire Raptor (man, those are beasts this edition) and a Void Shield, CSM are truely a shooty force to be reconned with. CC is only useful to mop up the leftovers of the shooting phase.

 

[Prot]

Congrats on the good snowing with the Decimator. I could see what you're saying, that Soulburner got a pony hike the day I ordered it. But the day you roll 6 shots with it and its potential gets pretty high against some hard targets.

 

I agree on the state of eighth but I will say I think Warp Talons have a pretty decent role. I've been pretty impressed with them in this edition.

[Iron Skull Mask]

Awe, that's a pity. The soulburner looked so sweet for 30 points that's why I also went for it first. I also have a stromlaser and a friend of mine with some putty skills duplicated the small weapon-mount part (FW should really sell those with the weapons) so I could magnetize the weapons. But you're right the soulburner still has the potential to deal a bunch of mortal wounds, especially when it can shoot more than once. 

The Warp Talons look indeed pretty cool with their ability to smother overwatch, but so far I haven't been able to squeeze some into my lists. Then again, they need warptime to be likely to hit home and there is still the fall back issue with cc... I don't know.

[Prot]

I usually take the Warp Talons straight into leman russes or flamer units....multi assault super shooty units. Rarely do I use Warp Talons with the intent of killing a unit.

 

Anyway I'm thinking of going back to World Eaters. It just kills me I can't use Vets of the long war. Most of my Chaos was intended to be World Eaters and nowadays there is no issue using Psykers with them and the stuff we are talking about fits right in anyway.

 

Going back, I'd probably use my Thousand Sons base paint for Alpha Legion and give them a try. Basically I guess I need real KDK or fixes to Khârn to make WE really useful as WE again.