++Greco-Roman Cerastus Knight-Atrapos++

[Company Master Holden]

Hello everyone! I posted in the Adeptus Mechanicus section, and the wise Magos there answered crucial questions and redirected me here for some further guidance.

 

For the sake of brevity, I will try to get to the point as quick as possible. 

 

I recently acquired a Cerastus Knight-Atrapos for $65 on eBay a couple of months back. I assembled it, and then I left it in my drawer. I have an idea on what I would like it to look like, but I might need help conceptualizing/accomplishing it. 

 

I would love for the Atrapos to have a Greco-Roman theme to it, as I absolutely love the culture and artwork. My idea was to recreate the scenes of Trajan's Column on the armor panels of the Knight. Unfortunately for me, this requires a level of painting and greenstuff skill that I do not possess. I had an idea of buying a replica of Trajan's Column, massaging out a thin layer of green stuff, and then rolling the column over the surface of the greenstuff to capture the details of the Column and then tearing/fitting the green stuff to fit on the armor panels.

I was wondering if anyone has done something similar to this, or even if you think that this project is feasible as well as providing any guidance/pointers for a novice. 

 

Thank you in advance!

[Naryn]

What a cool idea! I’m not sure how well using a model of the column (if you can find one; it seems like a niche product even among the niche of historical models) as a mold would work, since the green stuff would be raised where the column was flat and vice-versa. It seems like using the column as an original and then making a mold to cast thin panels of it might be more likely; there’s a great tutorial in the modelling section of the forums about this.

[EdT]

Have you considered sanding down the reverse side of 10mm models using a dreml and placing them on the armour plating directly? That way you get relief detail without all the casting issues of greenstuff. There are loads of historical sets available and they’re pretty cheap...

 

I tried something similar on a Contemptor but there really wasn’t enough space to play with; a Cerastus would be perfect for this though.

[EdT]

Just to add, given the fantasy ranges available at 10mm, something like the Ludovisi Battle Sarcophagus (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludovisi_Battle_sarcophagus) but with Orks instead of Goths might be amazing...

[Ovidius Incertus]

The idea is a fascinating one, but I'd think long and hard about the scale you're working at, both with the miniature and with the relief you're attempting to model.  Each turn of the frieze is roughly 1 m high and the figures therein are obviously smaller.  What size does that translate to on a Knight and, more importantly, how does that work with the usable surface (the pauldrons, greaves, carapace) you have to work with when modeling?  And if you're intending a narrative like on Trajan's Column, how are you going to accomplish it when your panels are broken up?

 

Second is theme of the frieze.  Does a straight copy of the frieze actually fit in-universe?

 

Personally, I think EdT's idea is the easiest.  I did something similar to affix details to one of my Knight's greaves.

[Company Master Holden]

What a cool idea! I’m not sure how well using a model of the column (if you can find one; it seems like a niche product even among the niche of historical models) as a mold would work, since the green stuff would be raised where the column was flat and vice-versa. It seems like using the column as an original and then making a mold to cast thin panels of it might be more likely; there’s a great tutorial in the modelling section of the forums about this.

 

Thanks Naryn! I thought it could be a cool concept. You are right; the green stuff would be raised where the column was flat. For some reason I was thinking of that scene from National Treasure where Cage pulls that pipe out and then puts his blood on it to roll the pattern on to a piece of paper. It is not entirely surprising that something from the movies might not be that easy!  I will be sure to check the modelling section for guidance on that particular method!

 

Have you considered sanding down the reverse side of 10mm models using a dreml and placing them on the armour plating directly? That way you get relief detail without all the casting issues of greenstuff. There are loads of historical sets available and they’re pretty cheap...

 

I tried something similar on a Contemptor but there really wasn’t enough space to play with; a Cerastus would be perfect for this though.

 

Just to add, given the fantasy ranges available at 10mm, something like the Ludovisi Battle Sarcophagus (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludovisi_Battle_sarcophagus) but with Orks instead of Goths might be amazing...

 

I had not even considered using the 10mm miniatures, but after what you said I went hunting and man, they look pretty awesome. Forgive me if I might ask a few common sense questions, but are the 10mm (and below) miniatures more often made with plastic or metal? And what kind of Dreml would be best and which attachment? I actually have a pretty large shop as I live on a farm in rural Tennessee, so I have belt sanders, grinders, etc. but surprisingly I do not own a Dreml. Also, would smaller mm miniatures (like 6) still have the same effect? Or at that point are they not detailed enough that green stuff might be a better solution? And I agree that Trajan's column, with Orks, would be amazing! 

 

The idea is a fascinating one, but I'd think long and hard about the scale you're working at, both with the miniature and with the relief you're attempting to model.  Each turn of the frieze is roughly 1 m high and the figures therein are obviously smaller.  What size does that translate to on a Knight and, more importantly, how does that work with the usable surface (the pauldrons, greaves, carapace) you have to work with when modeling?  And if you're intending a narrative like on Trajan's Column, how are you going to accomplish it when your panels are broken up?

 

Second is theme of the frieze.  Does a straight copy of the frieze actually fit in-universe?

 

Personally, I think EdT's idea is the easiest.  I did something similar to affix details to one of my Knight's greaves.

 

Ovidius, you indeed ask the tough questions. I wish I could tell you exactly how large the armor panels are, but I am not sure. I meant to go home and take a picture of the shoulder, back and leg panels with a Space Marine beside each one of them to give a better reference, but I had a late night and early morning today. Plus the issue of curvature gives me some pause. While the leg panels are relatively flat, the pauldrons and back/top panel are curved curved curved, almost to the point of looking like a bug shell. So that will be a major consideration. 

 

In terms of narrative, I had two thoughts running around in my head. The first thought is that the narrative would begin in the left corner of the left leg armor, and then move left to right across to the right leg armor, and then the next line on the left leg => right leg, etc. 

Typing that makes me realize how convoluted that is, so my next idea is just to have each armor panel tell a different story. Which brings me to your last point about fitting in universe. That is truly a tough one. It would be ideal if each armor panel could represent specific campaigns against the likes of the Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, Space Marines, etc., but I am not sure how well I can accomplish that with what I have available. If I couldn't use 40k specific factions as subjects for the column idea, I could instead have those panels represent the Knight's actions on its feudal world vs. campaigns in the broader universe. I admit that it is not ideal, but it seems to be the best way that this can possibly work.

[Major_Gilbear]

Historical 10mm minis are normally white metal, and I actually think you'd be safer sanding them by hand personally - they are very small, and the Dremel causes them to heat up rather quickly too. I have 10mm armies, and I Dremelled the bases off after clipping them down first, so I'm speaking from (painful) first-hand experience here.

 

If you want to make a frieze from 40k miniatures, then you might want to consider using Epic minis. Epic was a GW 6mm scale game that had almost entirely plastic infantry, and you can still buy lots on ebay for a reasonable price - if you're chopping them them up, their condition is less important, hence getting a cheaper pile of poorer-condition ones to use. There were also some plastic vehicles too, but of these I think only the Rhinos would be worth considering (their boxy shape helping in this case).

 

In any case, this is likely to be a pretty big endeavour!

[Ovidius Incertus]

Last night I did a rough size comparison and the pauldron on a normal plastic Knight is, at its maximum height, about the height of a squatty Mk. III Marine.  The greaves are shorter than a Marine and the workable surface comes about the waist of a Terminator.  I didn't pull out either my Atropos or Castigator kits, but I believe the greaves are a bit taller; with the Atrapos your pauldrons also have those segments, but that might actually work like bands of a frieze if you get something small enough.

 

Have you seen the Warlord Titan done by Awaken Realms with the freehand painted pauldrons with ork battle scenes?  Could be inspirational.

[Company Master Holden]

Historical 10mm minis are normally white metal, and I actually think you'd be safer sanding them by hand personally - they are very small, and the Dremel causes them to heat up rather quickly too. I have 10mm armies, and I Dremelled the bases off after clipping them down first, so I'm speaking from (painful) first-hand experience here.

 

If you want to make a frieze from 40k miniatures, then you might want to consider using Epic minis. Epic was a GW 6mm scale game that had almost entirely plastic infantry, and you can still buy lots on ebay for a reasonable price - if you're chopping them them up, their condition is less important, hence getting a cheaper pile of poorer-condition ones to use. There were also some plastic vehicles too, but of these I think only the Rhinos would be worth considering (their boxy shape helping in this case).

 

In any case, this is likely to be a pretty big endeavour!

 

Thanks for the warning! I probably would have tried to do it without gloves on, and my poor hands are still smarting from the degreaser I used to strip the paint off of some miniatures a couple of weeks back. 

 

I completely forgot about the epic scale for 40k. This could be a very promising lead, as it has infantry and vehicles (like you mentioned) and some other, funky looking Imperial Knights. This could make for some good battle scenes. But like you said, this will be a massive endeavor. It is hard to balance the desire to paint the dang thing and put it on the table with the desire to make something unique. 

 

Last night I did a rough size comparison and the pauldron on a normal plastic Knight is, at its maximum height, about the height of a squatty Mk. III Marine.  The greaves are shorter than a Marine and the workable surface comes about the waist of a Terminator.  I didn't pull out either my Atropos or Castigator kits, but I believe the greaves are a bit taller; with the Atrapos your pauldrons also have those segments, but that might actually work like bands of a frieze if you get something small enough.

 

Have you seen the Warlord Titan done by Awaken Realms with the freehand painted pauldrons with ork battle scenes?  Could be inspirational.

 

You are right on it with the scale. And I was thinking the same things with the bands of the armor being good dividing lines for the frieze. 

 

I just looked at it! That is absolutely amazing. While I don't think I could aspire to that level of freehand, it does bring up some alternative organization to my frieze scenes.

[Major_Gilbear]

Just on the Epic stuff a second:

 

You're making a frieze, and this means that you want fairly flat models - so you will be cutting or sanding down models to fit. With rhinos, and to a much lesser extent Land Raiders, the models have flat sides that will let you cut them off and adapt them to the surface.

 

Other models however, like the knights, are the size of a 28mm model and really won't work for this at all. They also tend to often be quite expensive nowadays, which makes them a costly prospect for a test.

 

Units that came on the infantry frames (infantry, bikes, rough riders, marines, commissars, etc) are all better choices really, and I think that you should be able to do some pretty good battle scenes in relief using these.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that you might not want to cover the whole panel in relief - you could just have a framed section on the lower edge of each main panel, and then paint the higher parts of each panel in a more usual way. This saves you work, time, and money; the frieze also then becomes a decorative point of interest that draws the eye, rather than a solid mass of detail that's harder to make out without more careful study.

[Company Master Holden]

Thanks for the heads up! Last question on the Epic miniatures; would you recommend having them facing forward, or from the side? 

[Major_Gilbear]

Depends on the specific model; I'd have them face the way they come on the sprue, if that makes sense?

[Company Master Holden]

That does! Thank you so much for your help! Once I get started I will try to post some WIP pictures on here!