Vets in 8th

[Halfpint100]

Now plasma has gone up in price for BS3+ models. I am thinking that grenade launchers might be a good vet weapon. 24" range and still has the str 6 goodness to take advantage of their bs 3+. 3 grenade launchers, a boltgun and a heavy bolter is only 84 points for a versatile squad.

 

What are the thought of B&C?

[mertbl]

I'd probably drop the heavy bolter to keep them cheaper. It's a pretty good scoot and shoot unit. Even being able to advance and still fire the 3 grenade launchers. Maybe go with all shotguna on everyone else. Edited October 10, 2017 by mertbl

[Guardsman Bob]

In general the 5+Save with no upgrade options has been enough to keep me from even touching Vets in 8th. The base cost alone felt like a colossal waste of points to just give the enemy.

 

However it would be a big fat lie to say a Mordian Execution Squad (Boltgun, 3x Plasmaguns, 6x Lasguns) hasn’t crossed my mind. Now to justify the increased point expenditure in a tactically plausible way... hmmm...

Edited October 10, 2017 by Guardsman Bob

[HenricusTyranicus]

In general the 5+Save with no upgrade options has been enough to keep me from even touching Vets in 8th. The base cost alone felt like a colossal waste of points to just give the enemy.

 

However it would be a big fat lie to say a Mordian Execution Squad (Boltgun, 3x Plasmaguns, 6x Lasguns) hasn’t crossed my mind. Now to justify the increased point expenditure in a tactically plausible way... hmmm...

I've actually found vets to be tremendously worth it. A vet squad, camping in cover, with three plasma guns, a boltgun, and a lascannon, was a 102 point kill team that could wreak some havoc. Three of them could kill half the enemy army some games. Just provide a lot of distractions at the front. Pask and a horde of conscripts would usually do the trick. Now this combo has gone up to 120 in the codex, which is....more. But with grenade launchers, it could still be very viable, especially since Leman Russes became such horrifying distractions. Probably get ignored all game. 

[PliskinAJ]

I agree with HenricusTyranicus the damage output of these squads is still worth it. Most players have to choose to target 2-3 squads I try to hide so I can pick their targets or the 70+ men in front of them. Most of the time they choose the 70+ men because they want to cut through my lines with melee thinning out the target makes the most sense to them before melee. 

[Guardsman Bob]

I remember the player base being smarter before leaving in 6th Edition. Then again I find it hard to believe there are so many people who suddenly became powerless before horde armies. This game must have gone into some strange and scary places over the last several years

[CoffeeGrunt]

I used Vets during a few weekend games. That said it was very careful outflanking with Tallarn rules, so thru could come on, execute a target with support, and then operate as a distraction to break my opponent's forward cohesion.

[HenricusTyranicus]

I remember the player base being smarter before leaving in 6th Edition. Then again I find it hard to believe there are so many people who suddenly became powerless before horde armies. This game must have gone into some strange and scary places over the last several years

It's not a matter of being smarter per se, it's largely that the game is very weak on long range anti infantry, and that the Tank commander Punisher with multi meltas is working hard at occupying your attention. My main opponents are all Death Guard, who spam pox walkers, so conscripts are a legit threat to a lot of their army as well.

[Thorakitai]

I remember the player base being smarter before leaving in 6th Edition. Then again I find it hard to believe there are so many people who suddenly became powerless before horde armies. This game must have gone into some strange and scary places over the last several years

It did. That being said, I suspect much of the problem is that the efficiency of anti-horde weapons, especially ranged artillery like thunderfire cannons and wyverns fell off a cliff. Or compare a 7th edition flamer against guardsmen in cover to an 8th edition one.

 

Anti-horde requires a major rethink for most armies, and most people don't seem to want to do that.

 

For my part, I've been seriously surprised at my opponents' inability to wipe out the 3 or 4 infantry squads I use as screens. A few guardsmen always seem to survive to the end.

[BurntheHeretic]

In my list my plasma vets in chimeras turned into special weapon squads: twice the plasma guns, less cost. 

 

But a good veteran squad combination could be:

 

5x lasguns

3xsniper rife

1x lascannon

1x boltgun.

 

At a very reasonable 87 points. Both the sniper rifles and lascannon benefit greatly from the 'take it down' order!

[NatBrannigan]

I've actually just put together a Plasma Vets squad, planning on using them with the Mordian order. Their cost went up but a Tuarox to keep them safe went down so the cost stayed about the same. I'm going to run the Taurox behind my main Infantry line where it wil be thoroughly ignored as always. When I get closer the Vets pop out and gun down a Character that thought it was safe. Hardly game winning but a decent unit.

 

I've also given my other Vet squad that had 3 Meltaguns shotguns so I can pop them out of my newly ordered Hades Breaching Drill. More fun than effective (I know command squads are better but that's so dull!!!) but I'm all about the fun.

[Feral_80]

The problem with Veterans is that everything they do, Command Squads do it better/cheaper. The codex should have moved Command Squads towards a support role by making their specialist equipment worth it, but sadly that's not been the case. They'll still be used primarily as counterattack/suicide heavy hitters. Also, it would have been really cool to allow Veterans to infiltrate, for example (I can understand removing the carapace options because of no model line, but infiltrate would not have been an issue...).

 

I can only see Veterans usable with 3x mid-range special weapons, either plasma or grenade launchers, and no other upgrades. They'll be cheap enough for you not to care if you lose them, and have enough ablative wounds to raise some doubts in your opponent's targeting priorities. Still, no big deal sadly.

[Halfpint100]

I've actually just put together a Plasma Vets squad, planning on using them with the Mordian order. Their cost went up but a Tuarox to keep them safe went down so the cost stayed about the same. I'm going to run the Taurox behind my main Infantry line where it wil be thoroughly ignored as always. When I get closer the Vets pop out and gun down a Character that thought it was safe. Hardly game winning but a decent unit.

 

I've also given my other Vet squad that had 3 Meltaguns shotguns so I can pop them out of my newly ordered Hades Breaching Drill. More fun than effective (I know command squads are better but that's so dull!!!) but I'm all about the fun.

 

Unfortunately the Hades vet squad is much more limited to its options than codex vets:

 

Srg can take power sword, axe or fist

srg can exchange laspistol for bolt or plasma pistol

2 vets can replace their shotgun with either a flamer, grenade launcher, meltagun or plasmagun 

[OnboardG1]

Don't have the dex on my phones but I'd guess that Vets could get quite a bit of mileage out of the Steel Legion's Chimera fetish. 

[NatBrannigan]

Only 2 Melta guns for the Hades Vet Squad? good to know, I'll need to do an arm swap! Meltas aren't great on them anyway since for some strange reason they're only BS4+. Novice Veterans perhaps?

[Halfpint100]

Only 2 Melta guns for the Hades Vet Squad? good to know, I'll need to do an arm swap! Meltas aren't great on them anyway since for some strange reason they're only BS4+. Novice Veterans perhaps?

 

That has been a lot of discussion of the BS 4+ vets. though if you do notice, they do get +1LD (7 for guardsmen and 8 for srg). So there is a little buff. I think they are more just crazy guardsmen that they throw in a hole with a drill and hope for the best.

I run mine with 2 plasma guns and a plasma pistol, for "suprise! here is more plasma and a drill that wants to eat you". 

[Altasmurf]

I've tried a squad of vets with 3 flamers and a heavy flamer in a valk/chimera with a platoon commander, pre codex using take it down, post codex using burn em out. This unit has done some surprising amount of damage.

 

I don't believe it fits in a true competitive game, but for a fun game it's pretty good. In the end you could just use a special weapon squad, command squad and company command and probably accomplish somthing similar.

 

That's pretty much vets in a nutshell though. Is that someone can do their job better. But I still like 'em and I'll keep using them in fun games.

[lash144]

The thing with flamer vets is that you pay a premium for their superior BS but don't use it, because the flamers are auto-hits.

 

If you want to go flamers, go special weapon squad :)

[Altasmurf]

I agree you pay for bs 3+ however 2 pts a model is not a premium. Also the bs 3+ is not wasted with the supporting fire.

 

Yes I could use a special weapon squad but then I only get 1 squad with 3 flamers, or 2 with 6 flamers no orders.

 

While 2 squads would be the most efficient for points I loose a lot of versatility.

 

Once against I'm not arguing vets are the best, just not useless is all I'm saying.

 

Also our current codex is so good we can actually take a subpar unit and not worry. So if you have that favorite vet squad go for it I say.

[NatBrannigan]

My Mordian Vets got their first game and did pretty well. I'm not saying a Command Squad wouldn't have been better but you don't always have to take the most boring, optimal units!

 

Worked as planned, popped out of their Taurox within Rapid fire range of a Nurgle character. Issued the Moridan order so I could target him, also got off the re-rolls 1 order thanks to Laurels of command and a few overcharged shots later he was taken off the table.

 

The Vet Squad lasted a bit longer than a Command Squad after that and I actually got to shoot the Plasma guns again thanks to the 7 other Guardsmen in the squad. Perfectly happy taking them again. 

[Galron]

I use a squad with 3x melta and a breacher charge with my elysians in a Valkyrie with an officer for reroll 1s orders. Mostly because I am already using 4 command squads 2 plasa/2 melta with each pair with an officer. I could throw a 5th command squad(yes I have 5 officers) but I would rather not spam command squads more than I already am. Might change when FW gets around to updating them and the points changes. They generally try and kill something and then I predictably roll miserably bad and they end up getting charged and killed. Only once have they really succeeded and shot up and tied up a Storm Surge for a while before a Venator squadron swooped in and blasted it with lascannons finishing it off.

[HenricusTyranicus]

I don't even think vets are unoptimal. They serve a slightly different role than Command squads, but in the right scenarios they are really very strong.

[duz_]

My Mordian Vets got their first game and did pretty well. I'm not saying a Command Squad wouldn't have been better but you don't always have to take the most boring, optimal units!

 

Worked as planned, popped out of their Taurox within Rapid fire range of a Nurgle character. Issued the Moridan order so I could target him, also got off the re-rolls 1 order thanks to Laurels of command and a few overcharged shots later he was taken off the table.

 

The Vet Squad lasted a bit longer than a Command Squad after that and I actually got to shoot the Plasma guns again thanks to the 7 other Guardsmen in the squad. Perfectly happy taking them again. 

 

How did you get the order off? Vox caster?

I've been debating between putting them in a Chimera or Taroux.

Chimera has the benefit of bringing a Platoon commander along for the ride.

The Taroux although cheaper, cannot bring the +1. 

[Guardsman Bob]

 

My Mordian Vets got their first game and did pretty well. I'm not saying a Command Squad wouldn't have been better but you don't always have to take the most boring, optimal units!

 

Worked as planned, popped out of their Taurox within Rapid fire range of a Nurgle character. Issued the Moridan order so I could target him, also got off the re-rolls 1 order thanks to Laurels of command and a few overcharged shots later he was taken off the table.

 

The Vet Squad lasted a bit longer than a Command Squad after that and I actually got to shoot the Plasma guns again thanks to the 7 other Guardsmen in the squad. Perfectly happy taking them again.

 

 

How did you get the order off? Vox caster?

I've been debating between putting them in a Chimera or Taroux.

Chimera has the benefit of bringing a Platoon commander along for the ride.

The Taroux although cheaper, cannot bring the +1.

His officer could have just ordered himself to run as well. With laurels involved a CC is likely.

 

My theory-Hammer would be to use a Valk because in the grimdark future the executioners come to you. With my force structures such an inclusion would need to be in the 2k+ point totals. None of my games have even been over 2k in 8th.

[NatBrannigan]

Nothing so clever. I had my Infantry squads marching up the board with officers and the Taurox behind them. The Taurox is just there so the Vets don't die straight away, and it's got a pair of Autocannon which is always useful. Really cheap now as well and it can keep up with the Infantry no problem only moving every other turn so it even hit it's target occasionally.

 

A Vox wouldn't be a bad idea actually... I'm trying to avoid using the Vets as a suicide squad though, which would happen if they charge up ahead of the main line. In an emergency it's not a bad option to have so might start taking a Vox.

 

My Chimera has two Heavy Flamers and will be full of a Command Squad, Special Weapons Squad and Platoon commander. 6 Flamers and a Heavy Flamer for toasty goodness. Haven't used that yet but it's all assembled and undercoated now. "Hot stuff, coming through!"