Leman Russes - How to most efficiently equip them?

[BurntheHeretic]

So the question is pretty obvious.. what do you think is the best way to equip a Leman Russ, in best synergy with each doctrine?Aside from the fact you may want to run differently equipped Russes for different battlefield roles.. 

 

I was quite excited about using a ´Flamer Russ´ with a Conqueror turret before the codex came out..but considering the revision of the Grinding Advance rule I started to question the viability of heavy flamers on the LR! You need to get close (move at full speed) to use the heavy flamers,  but you need to advance slowly to get maximum benefit from your turret cannon. What you guys think?

 

My thoughts:

 

Cadian: any turret works, plasma sponsons.

 

Catachan: battle cannon or demolisher cannon, plasma sponsons.

 

Tallarn,  Steel Legion, Valhallan: anything goes, minus heavy flamers.

 

Vostroyan: demolisher cannons, gatling cannons,  multimelta sponsons. A 24'' to 30'' range buff is huge! 

 

Mordian: gatling cannon, heavy bolters, to reap maximum benefits from overwatch. 

 

[Withershadow]

Punisher, 3x heavy bolters, stormbolter or stubber - 168-170 points of raw dakka. I think these work well for anyone.

 

Battlecannon, lascannon, plasma was a popular loadut back in the day, I think it also works well with Cadia, Catachan, Tallarn, and Vostroyans. Given the quality of the guns, springing for a tank commander seems good for these tanks.

[seriade]

I believe the question you want to ask is when is it best to just go turret weapon + hull heavy bolter/lascannon?

 

A base Leman Russ is 152 points.  The 2 dakka russes the punisher is better then the exterminator by a mile those 2 should be rocking 3 heavy bolters on top of the turret.  However every other variant i do not honestly know its worth even taking the sponsons save possibly the demolosher as it is so close range.  Plasma sponsons are 1/5 of a tank or 3/4 of a squad of guys to screen the given tank.

[Withershadow]

Interesting.  If the concern is to keep costs down, the demolisher's multi-meltas (the gun I assume you meant) are more expensive and being closer to the enemy it is more at risk of being destroyed. 

 

With the changes to overcharges, and all the ways to re-roll 1s, plasma cannons are a pretty good buy at 15 points each.  Cadians can get re-rolls to hits from standing still and getting an order, Catachans re-roll the number of shots, Tallarn can shoot and overcharge them on the move, Vostroyans have 42" range on the cannons, Valhallans are durable as all get-out.

 

The Steel Legion one honestly I feel is the weakest by a significant margin.

[BurntheHeretic]

Assuming you can safely overcharge, plasma cannons beat multimeltas. Against another Leman Russ equivalent a single multimelta with reroll 1 to hit would do 0.58 x o.5 x 3.5 = 1,02 damage. A plasma cannon would do 0,97 damage, but has better range and is cheaper. Cadians, Catachans, and Tallarn all have an own advantage when using them.

 

So I definitely think they have some use, as long as there{s a re-roll 1 to hit at hand. If not, now they only cause 1 mortal wound.. not bad at all.

 

And I agree, SteeL legion seems weakest.. only they lack any damage buff.. 

[micahwc]

I'd say dakka Russ with punisher and three heavy bolters, or a bare bones standard Russ in general use.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I'm a fan of the Executioner with all the trimmings. Mainly because I face Primaris Marines a lot, so high AP, Damage 2 firepower that wounds on 2s is tasty.

 

I run Tallarn, so it can stay pretty mobile and typically it's a Tank Commander to reroll 1s. Sees to those pesky Aggressors and Hellblasters nicely!

[Withershadow]

If you have any kind of buff to accuracy and/or volume (which you almost always should), plasma sponsons are worth it. I agree the hull lascannon, although costed fairly, is questionable on a degrading BS4 platform.

[Galron]

Executioner with plasmas, Demolisher, lascannon with heavy bolters and then just standard bare bone LRs with battle cannons. The bare bones ones are there to be extra targets. I use catachan doctrine with mine currently. The heavy bolters and lascannon are there just to provide some ranged fire for the short range demolisher cannon. My army isn't set in stone yet.

[olcottr]

Plasma Cannons on sponsons and Heavy Bolter on hull. I always make sure to have an infantry screen so flamers are unnecessary.  It doesn't matter what's on the turret because you can fire all weapons at different targets.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Thoughts on the Eradicator? I have one I'm quite fond of, just a hull Heavy Bolter on it for a little fire support against tough units in cover.

[Chris521]

Thoughts on the Eradicator? I have one I'm quite fond of, just a hull Heavy Bolter on it for a little fire support against tough units in cover.

Unfortunately, the Battle Cannon is almost always better.  Cheaper too

[Halfpint100]

 

Thoughts on the Eradicator? I have one I'm quite fond of, just a hull Heavy Bolter on it for a little fire support against tough units in cover.

Unfortunately, the Battle Cannon is almost always better.  Cheaper too

 

 

Chris is very right on this. 3 more points for half the range, 2 less strength and ignores cover. Not worth it IMO

[NatBrannigan]

And it was a lovely little tank in 7th as well, so cheap!

 

Love that the Battle Cannon is back. Running mine sat at the back with no sponsons just firing away twice a turn and it's just like the good old days!

 

My other two are a Tank Commander with Punisher, H-Bolter sponsons and a Heavy Flamer and an Executioner with Plasma Sponsons and a Heavy Flamer. I use the Mordian doctrine so don't mind them getting charged so much, hence the Heavy Flamers. You charge one of those two and it's just like weathering another round of fire (hitting on a 4+ on overwatch).

 

Lucky for me that's what I've run since the start of 7th so no change except for a points reduction. Oh, and their all nearly twice as shooty!

[Zectz]

The Eradicator was amazing in 7th, for its points cost especially. Now unfortunately it's outshined by the Battle Cannon. I was hoping they would redo some of the turret weapon points cost in the new codex (specifically Vanquisher & Eradicator/Exterminator) but that didn't happen so :( I still think the Eradicator is good, just doesn't seem as good as the Battle Cannon overall.

 

A lot of it does depend on the tables you play on though. If you think that extra strength for wounding vehicles/monsters on 3+ instead of 4+ is more valuable than ignoring cover for targeting those camping units. I have seen games were units of pathfinders, rangers & mandrakes etc in cover absorb rediculous amounts of firepower which would take the Eradicator 1 turn to deal with compared to half the game with combined shooting from other tanks.

[micahwc]

The amount of cover on the board seems to make a huge difference. I've noticed a lot of games being played with what I would consider not enough cover. I always try to add more to my games.

 

Typically at my local store cover seems to be layed out in a rough grid pattern, which leaves lots of open fire lanes. The game is a lot more interesting when you close those off. (I say this as a guy who runs gunline chaos armies). If I can shoot all 8 Havoks at you first turn without having to move, from 48" away, we need more cover. Personally, I think you generally shouldn't have more than a 24-30" open area in any direction, unless you maybe have one central open area, with a lot of cover to the sides.

 

Vostroyans with demolishers, punishers, and multi-meltas seem pretty awesome as the limit to those three weapons is the 24" range, and firing a demolisher cannon or a punisher twice at 30" is scary as hell.

 

I am very much considering running a supreme command detachment of three Vostroyan tank commanders for an extra command point and good ballistic skill. I don't have my codex with me but assuming "Gunners, kill on site" is the same, firing 3x20 punisher shots hitting on 3+ and re-rolling 1s, then shooting all that again, sounds evil. At strength 5 you have a good chance of hurting just about anything in the game short of a superheavy.

 

Edit: Math on 3 punishers shooting a toughness 8 target with a 3+ armor save. Punishers fire twice each, re-roll 1s from the tank order, and use Ballistic Skill 3+ for being tank commanders. 120 shots total. 20 rolls of 1 get re-rolled. First 120 shots inflict 8.8 unsaved wounds. 20 re-rolled shots inflict 1.48 unsaved wounds. 10.28 total unsaved wounds.

 

Math on 3 punisher commanders shooting a T3 target with a 5+ armor save. Punishers fire twice each, re-roll 1s from the tank order, and use Ballistic Skill 3+ for being commanders. 120 shots total. 20 rolls of 1 get re-rolled. First 120 shots inflict 35.5 unsaved wounds, second 20 shots inclict 5.92 unsaved wounds. 41.42 dead guardsmen or conscripts in one shooting phase.

 

Math for T4 target with 3+ armor save. Same as above. 120 shots, 20 rolls of 1 get re-rolled. 17.7 unsaved wounds from the 120, 2.9 unsaved wounds from the 20, total of 20.6 dead space marines.

Edited October 13, 2017 by micahwc

[HenricusTyranicus]

The Eradicator is outshined even more by the Executioner than the Battlecannon I think. The Eradicator is is -2 AP out of cover and -3 in it. The Executioner is just always -3. The Executioner is 5 points cheaper, and even never using overcharged shots it's better. Overcharging, they aren't even in the same league. 

[Azarians]

Just a question, what is the best between executionner, demolisher and battle tank ? Without a Tank Commander.

[micahwc]

Without a commander and without factoring bonuses for regiments, I'd say the battle cannon is better than the demolisher because you will generally get more shots, and you have twice the range. The strength difference isn't really that helpful against most targets. Strength 10 helps you wound toughness 5, 17, 18, and 19 better than Strength 8. That's a pretty narrow list of targets where the extra strength is helpful, and you will be generally firing more shots with the battle cannon at 1d6 versus the demolishers usual 1d3.

 

As far as the executioner, again without commander or regiment bonuses, the tradeoff is 1 less strength, better AP, and 1 damage instead of 1d3 damage, or overcharge for the same strength, better ap, and straight 2 damage. In my opinion overcharging is better than a battle cannon as you will hit with the same strength, same average number of shots, much better AP, and straight 2 damage instead of d3, but you have the possibility of wounding yourself. If you are not going to overcharge every shot the battle cannon is probably better against less armored targets, and the executioner would be better against things like space marines. If you are going to overcharge and not worry about rolling 1s, than my opinion is that the executioner is best.

 

An overcharged executioner seems to be the best weapon, and to take advantage of it you will want abilities to give you +1 to hit, or re-roll 1s to hit. Whichever regimental doctrines can help you with this will be the best to take.

[duz_]

My guardsmen did not like facing the Eradicator when they faced off against it when the new codex dropped

 

Its goal is similar (and possibly even better) than the Wyvren, thinning ranks of light infantry. Yes it can deal with MEQ too, but essentially killing T3/5+ models on a 2+ is nice.

[micahwc]

Assuming a roll of 6 for number of shots, assuminig BS 3+ for a commander, and assuming firing twice for not moving, an executioner supercharged will kill 5 marines. If you roll two 1s for number of shots, you will kill .9 of a marine. A punisher doesn't roll for number of shots, and firing twice will kill 5 marines

 

Against terminators, vehicles, Primaris marines, and anything with multiple wounds, the executioner overcharged is better, assuming good rolls for number of shots.

 

Against any 1 wound infantry with a 3+ or better save, the punisher is better.

 

Against terminators, an average roll for number of shots will see the executioner killing 2.59 terminators, A punisher will do 2.96 wounds, killing 1.48 terminators.

[N1SB]

 

I am very much considering running a supreme command detachment of three Vostroyan tank commanders for an extra command point and good ballistic skill. I don't have my codex with me but assuming "Gunners, kill on site" is the same, firing 3x20 punisher shots hitting on 3+ and re-rolling 1s, then shooting all that again, sounds evil. At strength 5 you have a good chance of hurting just about anything in the game short of a superheavy.

 

Ya, Gunners Kill On Sight is still re-roll all 1s.

 

I was thinking of a Heavy Support Detachment of 1 tank commander + 3 Lemans, but 3 tank commanders...that's very interesting to me.  I might copy you.

 

Pls let us know how you proceed on this line of thinking.

[Malakithe]

Im thinking Catachan for my tank heavy list. Might just go bare bones battle cannons. Two questions..how should I support/protect them and how many tank commanders per lemon russ? For a 2k list

[micahwc]

@not 1 step,

 

I've only got two tanks for now but as soon as I get a third I'll start doing it. The math on three punisher commanders re-rolling 1s is scary.

[micahwc]

How does everyone feel about hunter killer missiles? One use makes me hesitate a bit but on a commander re-rolling 1s it seems like less of an issue. I'm leaning towards bringing them on everything that can take them and just shooting them all first turn. But I'm still working on building my list and I need to inflate my points a bit to get 2,000.