Countering Mortarion with Astra Militarum

[gunnyogrady]

Hey there folks, I need some guidance and feedback.

 

I played a 2000pt game tonight, Astra Militarum vs Death Guard. I don't have a huge collection, so to get to that point level I have to bring my Baneblade. I pulled the tank out of the case, and my opponent said, "Well if you're bringing that, I'm bringing Mortarion."

 

I ignored that I was taking a TAC list and he was making a big unit choice specifically to counter me. We played an eternal war mission, four objectives worth 3 points each. I tried to stay mobile, focus my fire, misdirect my opponent, use list synergies, and play to the mission.

 

What happened instead is that he seized, Mortarion flew over and killed my heavy weapons teams, and then Mortarion killed my Baneblade in one turn of combat on turn two. From there I played my ass off, but it was basically good game. I simply had no resources that could kill him.

 

So what do you guys do to counter primarchs, and specifically Mortarion? Do you need to see my list? Would a brief battle summary be helpful? I am feeling mighty discouraged, because I generally consider myself a decent player, and I basically got point-click-deleted by a single model.

 

So, like I said, just a bit frustrated and looking for some guidance.

[Tirak]

So I've written this, and looking back I think it comes off as a bit abrasive, so I'll preface it with this. It's hard to give feedback on a game without knowing what both armies consisted of and how the game played out. If you'd like proper feedback, a more detailed description of both the lists and the battle would be very useful. Don't feel discouraged if this was your first time fighting Mortarion, the first time you run into anything can be a shock if you didn't prepare for it tactics wise.

 

Superheavies don't do well against Morty. I have a 'fun' list that has a Knight Titan in it, 'cause they're cool, and Morty uppercutted it, wiped it off the board in one round of combat. That's going to be normal, so don't play that game. Morty also does well against hoards, getting 3 attacks for every normal attack if fighting infantry. In ye olden Index days, you'd be able to drop a 50 man tarpit on him and ignore him for two turns, now, not so much. Still, tarpitting is his weakness, Yes he's fly, but he still can't assault after falling back, and assaulting is his best trick, so force him to fall back. I threw 40 infantry at him to tie him up for a turn so I could handle the rest of the army, and it was well worth the trade. To put that in context, I run 100 man infantry core in my army and then lots of flyers and tanks in most of my lists. I sacrificed 40% of my infantry to deal with that one model and a one turn delay was a win. Because at the end of the day, I invested around 180-200 points to tie him up.

 

Also, Morty shouldn't be able to get that close to you on turn one, which tells me he had a Chaos Psyker with Warp Time. Where were yours? We now have a 15 point model that denies on 2d6, no one has an excuse for not having psykers in an army anymore. If you can trap Morty in the middle of the field, you can shell him to death before he can accomplish anything, or set up a tarpit with conscripts.

 

The only thing I know about your list is that you had at least 1 heavy weapon team and 1 baneblade, and then you said after that you didn't have the resources to take him on. What were those resources? How did Morty survive all the fire from the baneblade? Did you not prioritize him? If so, what was the main target and why? Where were your infantry in this fight? Were you properly spread out? Fighting Morty you need to place your heavy support choices away from each other, if he's able to consolidate into another model, your positioning in the backline was bad.

 

Killing Morty is simple. Lascannons, a lot of them. It took me about two turns of limited shooting at Morty to wrap him up because of Lascannon teams, and those two turns were bought with the lives of those conscripts, infantry and advisors I charged into him to deny him an assault next turn. I had psykers deployed forward so that every time a chaos sorcerer tried to cast something, I was there with the deny attempt. I had conscripts up front and ready to dive on him the moment he moved, which took away his ability to assault on a key turn. I don't know if your problem was tactical or list based, but with more information, we can drill down to what went wrong.

 

Obviously there is always the dice factor, but since you didn't mention it, I'm going to assume fair luck all around.

[tychobi]

Sounds like you got siezed on with a tailored list.  No shame in loosing in that kind of situation.  I feel that heavy weapons and tanks for that matter need some sort of screen.  Guard have innumerable options to speedbump and perform interdiction vs mortarion and other wrecking ball units.  Treat him like a knight. Feed him chaff.  Shoot him down with heavy weapons.  Charge him with bullgryns and conscripts.  The baneblade should have been on the other side of the table and merrily blasting his smelly face off.  More specific advice would need lists I would think. 

[BurntheHeretic]

Well so much about everyone complaining the Guard codex is overpowered....

 

How could Mortarion have flewn over in 1 turn, smashing a Baneblade in a single round of combat? Sounds like a lot of bad luck to me. Given Mortarion's ability to ignore wounds (and likely an invulnerablel save) perhaps the only good counter is bombing  it with smites and other spychic powers. 

[HenricusTyranicus]

So my main opponent is Death Guard, and he brings Mortarion every game. Couple of things to keep in mind.

1. Spam Vengeance for Cadia.
This stratagem is obnoxiously good vs Death Guard, and means that even humble lasguns have a chance of putting wounds on Morty. Course, you should use it on you Leman Russes or your Manticores.
2. Mortarion will kill anything in his way. So don't have key units.
My last game against Mortarion, which I won, featured 13 infantry squads, 8 Company commanders, and some Heavy weapons teams, two Leman Russes, A Hellhound, a Devil dog, etc. It was structured so Mortarion could kill any one unit, and I'd be okay. I tried to space units apart, although it didn't always work, and I just wrote off anything within a foot of Mortarion as dead. I just made sure I had enough to win after that. 
3. Focus fire on the Army first.
Mortarion cannot kill your whole army unless you let him. Mortarion can only cover one objective. He still needs his troops to do a lot of heavy lifting. My last game against Death Guard, I didn't fire a shot at Mortarion turn one. Just focused on turning his poxwalkers and helbrutes into fine paste. Punisher Pask+Vengeance for Cadia= 40 dead poxwalkers. (Okay a hellhound and mortar squad helped too.)

 

Keep at it! I was really discouraged my first game against him too. Just keep thinking about how to counter him, and show him what guardsmen are made of!

Also, Mortarion has a 12 inch move. Depending on the deployment type, it is 100% possible for Mortarion to charge turn one. 

[Feral_80]

Between Vengeance for Cadia (and possibly Relic of Cadia and Overlapping fields of fire, if you field a Cadian detachment) and a *lot* of heavy firepower, honestly I do not feel that worried about Mortarion with the Guard. Give it another try. A superheavy is fine - Mortarion *will* come down if you target him with everything, eventually. But when you field a superheavy, you must build all of your list around it.

 

Keep 1-2 cheap but heavy hitters ready in defence of your superheavy: either a couple of Scions squads with melta/plasma ready to drop, or a couple of melta/plasma Command squads/Special weapons squads in a Chimera or Valkyrie. They will be able to inflict horrible damage. Even a squad of Bullgryns for countercharge will likely maul a wounded Mortarion's ass. And of course, if he parks Mortarion in range, don't forget Crush them! on your own superheavy and squash the stinky guy if everything else fails. He might not expect that.

 

Also, one thing that seems often overlooked with Guard is that you can play numbers to your advantage: it is not really that bad to have more drops than your opponent, even if he gets +1 to the roll to go first. Even if fielding a superheavy tank, you should have more drops than a Death Guard army, which is typically small in size - especially with Mortarion around. Stall during deployment and force him to deploy his critical units before you deploy yours, and take advantage of this by putting yours in safer/better positions. Eventually, he'll have to deploy Mortarion. He will likely put him mid-table if possible, and that's ok. After that, find the best spot for your superheavy and put it there. Make sure it has a good line of sight and firing lanes, and possibly that it will be hard for it to be assaulted before turn 3.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Feral_80

[CoffeeGrunt]

1. Spam Vengeance for Cadia.

This stratagem is obnoxiously good vs Death Guard, and means that even humble lasguns have a chance of putting wounds on Morty. Course, you should use it on you Leman Russes or your Manticores.

2. Mortarion will kill anything in his way. So don't have key units.

My last game against Mortarion, which I won, featured 13 infantry squads, 8 Company commanders, and some Heavy weapons teams, two Leman Russes, A Hellhound, a Devil dog, etc. It was structured so Mortarion could kill any one unit, and I'd be okay. I tried to space units apart, although it didn't always work, and I just wrote off anything within a foot of Mortarion as dead. I just made sure I had enough to win after that.

Re 1, you can only use a Stratagem once per phase under Matched Play rules.

 

As far as 2, that's my philosophy for Guard in general. Decentralised Firepower. My Nids rely on key units to deal damage and as a result those units don't last part turn two. My Guard have enough firepower spread throughout the army that they can deal with most things, but you'd need to kill half the army before I really struggle. At that point, they've normally killed more than half of your's. :P

[OnboardG1]

Presumably (and somewhat oddly) the Bane Wolf would toast his boat quite effectively with the Chem cannon?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Potentially, but it would have to get close, and the -3AP is pointless. Wounding on 2s is nice though.

[HenricusTyranicus]

 

1. Spam Vengeance for Cadia.

This stratagem is obnoxiously good vs Death Guard, and means that even humble lasguns have a chance of putting wounds on Morty. Course, you should use it on you Leman Russes or your Manticores.

2. Mortarion will kill anything in his way. So don't have key units.

My last game against Mortarion, which I won, featured 13 infantry squads, 8 Company commanders, and some Heavy weapons teams, two Leman Russes, A Hellhound, a Devil dog, etc. It was structured so Mortarion could kill any one unit, and I'd be okay. I tried to space units apart, although it didn't always work, and I just wrote off anything within a foot of Mortarion as dead. I just made sure I had enough to win after that.

Re 1, you can only use a Stratagem once per phase under Matched Play rules.

 

As far as 2, that's my philosophy for Guard in general. Decentralised Firepower. My Nids rely on key units to deal damage and as a result those units don't last part turn two. My Guard have enough firepower spread throughout the army that they can deal with most things, but you'd need to kill half the army before I really struggle. At that point, they've normally killed more than half of your's.

 

Oh yeah, I get that you can only use it once per phase. But you should never let a shooting phase pass in which you didn't use it, and it's worth using on overwatch occasionally. I had Pask get 4 wounds on Mortarion overwatching with it.

[Mitchverr]

Run tallarn.

bring shadowsword and salamander comand vehicle.

advance upon him with shadowsword.

fire upon him.

Ram

Use CRUSH THEM! stratagem

???

Profit

 

Laugh hysterically at your opponent as they are looking down heavily confused at CC shadowsword meta.

 

 

But seriously, Chaps above have most of this down, I would say if you do centralise firepower on specific units, make sure you have the speed bumps required to stop him from hitting you, or if it all goes to hell, make your super heavy charge him first using the doctrine as a last gambit.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Mitchverr

[duz_]

Another thought, if you can only just hit 2000pts with including a super heavy maybe play smaller games?

1500pts might be a better option, avoids the super heavies and you maximise you efficiency by having more cheap units than a similar number but more expensively kitted out.