b1soul Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Is this the most well-written primarch fight (and primarch "death") in BL? If not, I think it's close What say you guys? The emotional impact, the consequences, the insight into Guilliman's thinking, Fulgrim's decadence...what a read Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
RikuEru Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Is this the most well-written primarch fight (and primarch "death") in BL? If not, I think it's close What say you guys? The emotional impact, the consequences, the insight into Guilliman's thinking, Fulgrim's decadence...what a read Don't know if it's the best (because I haven't read all of the fights), but yes it was very well written. Fulgrim and Guilliman are portrayed in a contrasting way, showing how both of them "work", what makes them click... ...and how they hate each other now. I really liked the way Guilliman's Honor Guard was portrayed aswell. Close and old comrades of his, not mere Legionnaires, stalwart and willing to do whatever is necessary and commanded. They know no fear. ...up until Guilliman is wounded, which cracks their resolve and panic (in a orderly way) starts to spread, as they fear for his life. Felix Antipodes 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 Primarch fights covered by BL so far Curze vs. Lion (three rounds) Curze vs. Lion & Guilliman Curze vs. Vulkan (forget how many times they've went at it) Curze vs. Sanguinius Corax vs. Lorgar Ferrus vs. Fulgrim (two rounds IIRC) Jaghatai vs. Mortarion Guilliman vs. Lorgar & Angron Russ vs. Angron Russ vs. Magnus Russ vs. Lion Dorn vs. Alpharius Fulgrim vs. Guilliman (my favourite read up to now) Not counting Curze/Dorn and Curze/Corax as "fights"...boy, has Curze been around the block Maybe I'm missing a few, feel free to supplement Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) I couldn't really pick a favourite, but I know what I like in a primarch fight. I like the ones where there's a point to them - like an echo of something in the Bronze Age or Iron Age, when kings and generals often fought in the front lines (and were often evacuated from the field by their men when stuff went wrong). I like those ones for two reasons: - I love the notion of so much resting on their presences: soldiers fight that much harder with their ruler present, but if the lord falls, the battle's at risk of collapsing at once. - I really dig the fights that are about a clash of ideals and ways of life, rather than just about killing the other guy. You see this in loads of historical fiction and war movies, where two generals or duellists are trying to prove a point to one another, or convince each other, or justify themselves to their peers. I love those moments of tension and heated (often regretful) words before the swords lock, or the life-changing moment you have the enemy at your mercy and have that split-second to decide what to do, which will change the fate of both armies as well as both leaders. You can overdo primarch fights - and I'd argue we might've done - because so many of them are by their nature toothless affairs where we know one guy can't die. And since almost every author wants a crack at a primarch fight or two, you get a lot of them in the end. But context is everything. Russ and Angron, as an example, is something I'm very proud of. Both primarchs believe they won. Both Legions think they won. Both are also in clear situations where it could be said the other guy won. Both primarchs had a point to prove, and proved it, and there are lingering tensions over whether the other guys 'got it'. I'm similarly proud of Lorgar and Corax, because I think it's a telling moment in Lorgar's arc (and I planned him, from the moment I got hold of him, to have a character arc more than most primarchs, trying to make him real and believable). That's another moment of dramatic character shift, showing both primarchs in a new light. Stuff like that is important, I think. They need to be weighty character moments. They can't just happen because primarchs fighting is cool. I tried the same thing with Curze. One of his fights with the Lion is barely even mentioned, because it's irrelevant. The aftermath is what matters, when we see Curze rise after that even less sane than he was beforehand, as degeneracy sets in. Similarly, I barely described the third time they lock blows, because it's almost incidental - it's a background thing to the aspect of Curze's obsession and degeneration. But the first time you see them fight, it's far more visceral and personal, and you learn a lot about how both Curze and the Lion think. As well as what they're willing to compromise. Edited October 12, 2017 by A D-B Sulemain, DarKnight, Ranwulf and 8 others 11 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I can’t say I’ve read every Primarch fight but my favourite is The Khan vs. Mortarion. Might be because they were probably the least represented Primarchs at that point but I found that there was an excellent sense of motion to the writing. Outside that, the fights I enjoy the most are the ones that happen “off-camera”, or we get to see it from a Legionaries perspective. The Lion vs. Curze, as A D-B mentions above, is an excellent example. Indefragable 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 It would be nice to occasionally subvert the trope a la Robb Stark telling Jaime Lannister if they fought, Lannister would win, so they won't be fighting. Would be a cool, practical moment for one of the more rational Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 I know we only see the aftermath of Curze's slashed throat in Prince of Crows. What third unseen/barely seen fight are you referring to, Aaron? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 There's their fight in "Savage Weapons", and then there are the two that start and end Prince of Crows. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 Ah, yes...dear me, I did forget that encounter. Curze flees and that's why the Lion is hunting him at the beginning of UE So it looks like the Lion has fought Curze on Tsagualsa, fought him in the rain on some unnamed rock [don't recall that the planet was ever named] , fought him aboard the Invincible Reason, fought him with Guilliman by his side in UE, and fought him in AoC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_R_H Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I'm sorry, when did this happen, which book is this in? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCagh Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) The Lorgar/Corax and Curze rumble was one of my favorites. It's a very telling moment for Lorgar when he openly admits he isn't a fighter and never wanted to be a general and this and that. Then later, once he was been 'reborn' he kind of wants to fight Corax again. It shows how much he has changed as a character. Also cool that he still has the scars on his face from the fight, I think someone (maybe Argel Tal) hints that Lorgar somehow intentionally didn't heal fully from those wounds. I like that Lorgar carries around his scars (literally) from that fight. Vulkan pounding the piss out of Curze was also pretty cathartic. Throws a bit of a wrench in the Primarch hierarchy and comes out of no where, but it's still pretty humorous. I hope we get some good Sanguinius fights in the future. Dude needs to show us why his reputation is what it is. Edited October 12, 2017 by TheRealMcCagh Indefragable and DarKnight 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 Vulkan is not to be messed with His Perpetual ability makes him arguably the most powerful primarch Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_R_H Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I really have hopes for Sanguinius, I wonder if it comes to the point where he has defeated Horus at the end, and Horus plays the 'Sanguinius, my broski, what have I done?!' Card, before he skewers him... TheRealMcCagh 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Vulkan pounding the piss out of Curze was also pretty cathartic. Throws a bit of a wrench in the Primarch hierarchy and comes out of no where, but it's still pretty humorous. I mean, it's only fair given he got killed with a dining Fork. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCagh Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I really have hopes for Sanguinius, I wonder if it comes to the point where he has defeated Horus at the end, and Horus plays the 'Sanguinius, my broski, what have I done?!' Card, before he skewers him... I'm a big Sanguinius fanboy, but I'm kind of hoping for the opposite. In my mind, Sanguinius should get utterly annihilated by Horus hopped up on Chaos. He gets smacked down so hard his sons have PTSD from it 10,000 years later. Kind of like that scene at the end of The Last of the Mohicans where Sanguinius is Uncas and Horus is Magua. But good ol' Sangy gets to spit in his eye right at the end there. Then the Emperor can run in like Chingachgook. Jarl Kjaran Coldheart, Indefragable, Xisor and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_R_H Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I don't know, ya'see he's supposed to be the ULTIMATE BADASS, that to me is someone who can still lay Horus low, even when he's off his Cake on warp juice, and Horus can only win through appealing to Sanguinius' humanity. Don't forget, Sangy might fall to the red thirst which might make him sangy 2.0... damn I can't wait to see what happens, I was blindsided by the Dorn and Alpharius fight to be honest.. Taliesin and TheRealMcCagh 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCagh Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 He'll have plenty of opportunity to be the ultimate badass during the Siege of Terra and guarding the Eternity Gate. I guess I just like the idea of Horus actually matching the Emperor in power, and as such should be able to crush any other Primarch one on one. The touchy feely, broken hearted dad reasoning for the Emperor at the end never really sat right with me. The dude was around for over 30,000 years before the Primarchs, it didn't make sense that he'd allow his ultimate dream to get shredded by a guy he has spent a blink of an eye (by his time standards) with out of love. I guess this isn't really the thread for that topic though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 One of the things that came up in the Siege meeting, when we were just collecting canon events, was "Wow, Sanguinius was freaking everywhere during the Siege. He did almost everything." Indefragable 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Triszin Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 One of the things that came up in the Siege meeting, when we were just collecting canon events, was "Wow, Sanguinius was freaking everywhere during the Siege. He did almost everything." wings help with that. =P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share Posted October 13, 2017 it's only fair given he got killed with a dining Fork. The one time Vulkan didn't hold back, Curze got crushed both verbally and physically. It's a great scene cuz it highlights how terrible Curze is at winning fair fights Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 One of the things that came up in the Siege meeting, when we were just collecting canon events, was "Wow, Sanguinius was freaking everywhere during the Siege. He did almost everything." One of the things that came up in the Siege meeting, when we were just collecting canon events, was "Wow, Sanguinius was freaking everywhere during the Siege. He did almost everything." wings help with that. =P Snarky comment thwarted! CURSES! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCagh Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 One of the things that came up in the Siege meeting, when we were just collecting canon events, was "Wow, Sanguinius was freaking everywhere during the Siege. He did almost everything." Well I hope you've cleared your schedule. I'm going to need at least a couple novels of Sanguinius ungodly ubergodly freakin' firestorm absolutely devastating those heretic lines Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 One of the things that came up in the Siege meeting, when we were just collecting canon events, was "Wow, Sanguinius was freaking everywhere during the Siege. He did almost everything." Well I hope you've cleared your schedule. I'm going to need at least a couple novels of Sanguinius ungodly ubergodly freakin' firestorm absolutely devastating those heretic lines +1 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Is this the most well-written primarch fight (and primarch "death") in BL? If not, I think it's close What say you guys? The emotional impact, the consequences, the insight into Guilliman's thinking, Fulgrim's decadence...what a read which novel is this in? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share Posted October 13, 2017 Dark Imperium mc warhammer 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340305-haleys-thessala/#findComment-4907870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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