Haley's Thessala

[karden00]

I am an Ultranarine fanboy from all the way back to 2nd ed., so I have some baggage when it comes to this subject.

 

I’ve expressed before that I have never loved the idea that Guilliman was so utterly outclassed by Fulgrim. I don’t want to rehash debates I’ve already taken part in, but I’ll stated again: it seems out of character to me that The Powers That Be decided to so clearly come down on the side of daemon primarch pimp slapping a loyalist counterpart. To be clear, I’m not sure I wholly disagree, but it is not often that GW is so definitive in such matters of fluff.

 

I’ve reflected on this encounter and I have a conclusion that I think I am fairly secure in: the whole thing is from Guilliman’s point of view. As such, we are treated to Guilliman’s confidence, self consciousness, pride, vulnerability, hope, and regret.

It is wonderfully insightful.

Therein lies the battle’s strength, and in my humble opinion, weakness.

Like it or not, we see Guilliman completely exposed. Fulgrim, by contrast, is denied to the reader. We rely on our knowledge (bias) of him as an utterly deadly and potent foe, but also one that is almost (I stress the almost) a characature of the worst parts of his reputation. He is beyond confident, brilliant (he lured Guilliman there, didn’t he [could the scene have worked without it being set in the backdrop of the sober commander being self aware of the trap he fell into? Perhaps, perhaps not. I realize this is central to the tension of it] so why shouldn’t he be brilliant - no complaint there) but in his success he seemed to come across as a kind of anti-Mary Sue.

I know, it’s almost like Godwyns Law to use that expression, but I didn’t really sense much tension in the fight. Not because I wanted Guilliman to shine or to win. We all knew Guilliman wasn’t getting out of there. But there did t seem to be any stakes for Fulgrim. I know again, it’s not his story. But The First Heretic was not Corax’s story either, and yet we left that fight with one of the best depictions of the Ravenlord as well as a fight that was compelling for both him and the Urizen.

I don’t mind that I saw Guilliman fall. I’ve grown up with him mortally wounded in a bubble. I’m not against seeing his internal dialogue become all too human in its vulnerability.

But as a set piece, I really feel it was just too lop sided a fight to be the best ever.

[b1soul]

Chaos made Horus a match for the Emperor, Luther a match for the Lion, Eugen Temba a match for Horus

 

Chaos easily made Fulgrim more than a mstch for Guilliman

[Ascanius]

Also, if you want stakes, Fulgrim was trying to kill Guilliman and at least succeeded in putting him on medical leave for 10,000 years . . .

[karden00]

@b1soul, great point, it does change my perspective somewhat. I never intended to say I don’t accept that reality, I stressed that I knew Guilliman had to go down.

Kinda makes one wonder, if Guilliman knew about daemons and psychics in M41/2, he surely knew about them in M31, when he was in charge of everything. Why wouldn’t fighting chaos be routinely done with GK/null/heavy psychic backup?

 

@mhacdebhandia, what I meant to say was, there were no stakes for Fulgrim, not Guilliman. Again, we all knew Guilliman had to go down. But if it was more of a contest than a curb stomp it would have been a more compelling fight to me.

[Ogun]

The absence of the Sisters of Silence is an interesting point. If he could, you would have imagined that he would have had some with him. I'm not sure though if Guilliman even knew of the Grey Knights. We know they emerged during the Second Founding, but given that was an extended process, it might have been after Guilliman's wounding.

[Ascanius]

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood - by "no stakes" you mean that Fulgrim wasn't really at risk himself?

[mc warhammer]

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood - by "no stakes" you mean that Fulgrim wasn't really at risk himself?

 

well, what are the dramatic stakes for fulgrim? maybe his pride/reputation/vindication was on the line.

 

i'm also guessing that the scene did a decent job of doing away with the silly notion that rg wasn't a "fighting primarch"?

[Ascanius]

Maybe Fulgrim just . . . wanted to kill Guilliman?

[b1soul]

I think he's saying...what risk to Fulgrim was there as he thoroughly outclassed Fulgrim and could possibly return from the Warp even if banished?

[mc warhammer]

Maybe Fulgrim just . . . wanted to kill Guilliman?

yeah, that’s not very writerly ....but it works for me.

[karden00]

I’m saying that despite my fanboyism, one part of why the scene wasn’t the best for me was that I felt it was just an account of a one sided beat down. I’m not trying to say ‘but Guilliman shoulda had more of a chance,’ I’m saying that since we knew Guilliman was going down, it woulda been nice to have more of a look into Fulgrim.

If we get to Horus vs Sanguinius and we only see Sangy recognize his imminent death, his vulnerability, his doubts, and the consequences he may foresee, without having anything from Horus’s point of view, his reluctance, his ambition, perhaps some regret, maybe even a touch of fear, given his respect for Sangy, I think we would all feel a little let down.

I know Sangy vs Horus is different from Fulgrim vs Guilliman, but to me, Fulgrim was basically a plot device to put Bobby G down, rather than a potent character.

[G_R_H]

Just picking up on something you said there about the Sangy v Horus fight it could be an idea if one of the last books of siege or even penultimate book is from Sangy POV, and as he dies, the book ends literally that is the last part of that book. And then the final book comes from Horus POV? And again would end as he dies and emperor is mortally wounded. Done. Ended. No consequences, no rush to the golden throne. No consequences or anything, just finished. Then they could give us a break to catch our breath and plan out the Scouring series to follow on from then..

[karden00]

Sounds pretty neat, but there’s an argument it should be Dorn that closes it out.

[G_R_H]

It's going to be interesting, I never thought of Dorn to be honest, they can do so much with this, I cannot wait!

 

Edit: the scouring could start through Dorns eyes, from the moment of death, or just after the emperor is interred and is shown through flashbacks/recollections?

Edited October 16, 2017 by G_R_H

[Ascanius]

I’m saying that despite my fanboyism, one part of why the scene wasn’t the best for me was that I felt it was just an account of a one sided beat down. I’m not trying to say ‘but Guilliman shoulda had more of a chance,’ I’m saying that since we knew Guilliman was going down, it woulda been nice to have more of a look into Fulgrim.

 

I see what you mean. I suppose I don't find it particularly believable that Fulgrim would really have that much in the way of a complicated inner life by that point - he's fully transformed into a Daemon Primarch of Slaanesh, and part of the horror of that is the notion that you really do stop caring about things as you once did.

 

This is by contrast to, say, Magnus as portrayed in the framing device of Magnus the Red: Master of Prospero, where he's still not fully committed even to the Traitor cause, much less the will of Tzeentch. It's not just that his soul has been shattered into fragments - he's also just simply not yet a Daemon Primarch.

 

So, I guess, Haley's approach is to put the reader within Guilliman's head as he reflects on the state of the Imperium and the burden he's under, and as he sees what has become of Fulgrim (keeping in mind he wasn't at the Siege of Terra to see it before) - which I assume is intended as a prologue or contrast to Guilliman's mindset in "the present", where everything is so much worse than he could ever have imagined even in the face of Fulgrim's corruption.

[Indefragable]

So much to respond to:

 

Fights:

Hidden Content

1. Khan vs Mortarian stands out to me since it was unexpected and such a ying vs yang battle.

 

2. Angron vs Guilliman

The samurai/Jedi dialogue is awesome, especially THE speech from Angron. I loathe Guilliman (disclaimer), but I think it’s one of his best depictions. You get the sense that he can’t really beat Angron (no offense, karden00), but that he is competent and objective in the way he fights. He is a solid Tier 2/Final Four class fighter: he may not be the best, but he is going to land blows and he will NOT go down easy or quick.

 

...besides, I don’t think Guilliman really sought to best Angron. Despite his manly tears of justified rage, Guilliman just wants to know WHY all this happened. It’s like he is there to die knowing the answer more than there to win. And that’s awesome. It’s so perfectly irrational a thing for such a rational human being to do..it’s entirely believable. Everyone has their breaking point.

 

3. The Lion vs Russ (in the Primarch series).

Again, there’s something believable to this one. Just a brotherly dust-up. Like that moment in the air vents in Boondock Saints ...anyone with a brother can relate to having to slap him upside the head once in a while, regardless of the situation.

 

As ADB mentioned, this fight reveals something about their characters. How in so many ways, they are the same prideful creatures, just raised in different circumstances. And this fight breaks them down to being (almost) equals. What each “wins” and “loses” in the fisticuffs reveals quite a bit.

 

In fact, one could argue that the entire book is essentially that fight, with rest of the story revolving around the setup and the aftermath.

 

 

Least favorite (so far):

Curze vs the Lion AND Guilliman: fat too much like fan service to the modern-day Curze crowd. Didn’t really accomplish anything (IMO) and the fact that the Lion man-handled him 1-1 later on, AND had held his own so many times before makes this one that much harder to rectify

 

One I WANT to like the most:

Fulgrim vs Ferrus Manus on Istvaan

This should be the the ultimate tears-in-their-eyes, Obi-wan vs Anakin, brotherly tragic battle. It came off “meh” (IMO), I give it a pass since it was the 5th HH novel ever written.

 

 

@ ADB on what makes a good Primarch fight:

Here here!

 

@ADB on Sanguinius on Terra:

We are not worthy!

 

@karden00: I totally get what you mean re: Guilliman vs Fulgrim. Its one thing for x to lose, it’s another for x to lose with no proportionality or context to it. Like when a character fires full auto for the entire movie only to “be out” in time to be shot by the bad guy. Or a super competent character to suddenly stand up in a battle and take his helmet off...it’s like “c’mon...anything but THAT!”

Edited November 14, 2017 by Indefragable

[b1soul]

I don't see much wrong with Curze vs. Lion plus Guilliman actually...

 

Curze fanboys may wilfully misinterpret it to mean that Curze is worth two primarchs, but it really just shows Curze holding off the pair for a short while before setting off his bombs