What to leave on the field?

[Zombs]

Hello brothers, simple question: since most of our stuff is gonna be deep striking, what should we leave on the field?

I know it depends from the lists, bot in general what do you usually deploy? And for which resons?

For example: do you think it's better to list something immobile from the beginning just to deploy it first turn? Like dreddys or predators from other space.

Or maybe using fast moving units is better? Razorbacks with pakg, interceptors, ravens...

And lastly what do you think about a landy full of people ready to be gated on the enemy first turn?

What should be the purpose of the units deployed first turn in gk lists?

Let's discuss it!

[Muaddib]

I use interceptors X3, razorback and stormraven. And a character w/ GoI if needed.

This way everyone can join the alpha strike. Or not.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Been using Purgators and Venerable Dreads with twin las+missile. Usually park the Brother-Captain with them too as another denial piece. They have been quite effective at keeping the enemy out of my DZ both initially and as the game goes on.

 

My current list has 12 drops, so I end up having 6 for the alpha and 6 sitting backfield making any enemy alpha strike worthless. 

[skarn]

I use a raven and put in an inquisitor, dread and 5 or 6 acolytes. That gives me up to 9 deepstriking units.

[Adeptus]

I use a Raven, a Dreadnought, and often a character with Gate and sometimes a unit in the Stormraven if I need to. We're often playing like, 50-75 PL so I rarely have more than 8 units in my army. I've been experimenting with a Rhino with Strikes in as well, and that's been a lot of fun so far. A good unit to use psybolt ammo on!

[Gentlemanloser]

Razorbacks, Doomglaives and sometimes even GMNDK.

[Adeptus]

Oh, Interceptors are another obvious one to leave on the table, especially if you've got somewhere to hide them in turn one.

[Prot]

I think Storm Raven is a constant and the dreads but I still love the Interceptors. I am still undecided about rebuking a Stormraven.

[Seizeman]

Strikes on razorbacks.

 

They are durable, mobile and versatile. They are the best anti-infantry units in the codex, so they are ideal for your field troops, as you need to clear the enemy bubble wrapping before your deep strikers can deploy.

 

You can take 3 and 3 for just 621 points, which is pretty cheap and allows you to leave 6 units in deep strike.

 

Stormravens can also work. They are a lot riskier to use, specially on low points games, and are less strategically versatile, but they give you heavy firepower and more powerful charges when things go well.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I wouldn't be investing in Razorbacks. They cost about the same (assuming assault cannons) as five more Strikes, which are ultimately more useful. Hitting on 4's if you move is particularly bad for all vehicles these days, its why the Raven is so great.

 

I keep finding Venerable Dreads a solid choice. After seeing how Guard demolish lists unable to crack armour (its obscene what a tank company with a Stormlord does at 2k), and Conscripts walls make it a chore to even get a charge lane on them, you need long range accurate anti-vehicle. I've still found zero scenarios where the twin autocannon would have helped more than the missile pod, even if it is one shot. Someone was running numbers on a certain Mongolian image board, you pretty much need the equivalent of 12x lascannons (assuming BS 3+) in your list to reliably disable/kill a Russ a turn. If you can't muster that, you're going to get rekt by Guard (as their hidden Tech-Priests and strats let them heal their armour back up to full, while you waste time trying to clear the chaff screens).

 

GK aren't exactly blessed with options in that regard, but I think 2x Venerables with las/missile and a Raven is a solid base everyone should consider. That's three backfield drops already, and one of them quickly displaces to be more useful up the field. Between that and our ability to throw out concentrated mortal wounds (I'm definitely taking Vortex on one of my DKGM in future), we should be averaging what we need to drop a Russ a turn. The biggest thing is clearing out the armour, Guard can only win by swamping objectives at that point (Scions are pure suicide melta now that they made plasma too expensive, and I've yet to see anyone take anything except Conscripts as the other Troops choice). 

[Helycon]

I wouldn't be investing in Razorbacks. They cost about the same (assuming assault cannons) as five more Strikes, which are ultimately more useful. Hitting on 4's if you move is particularly bad for all vehicles these days, its why the Raven is so great.

 

I keep finding Venerable Dreads a solid choice. After seeing how Guard demolish lists unable to crack armour (its obscene what a tank company with a Stormlord does at 2k), and Conscripts walls make it a chore to even get a charge lane on them, you need long range accurate anti-vehicle. I've still found zero scenarios where the twin autocannon would have helped more than the missile pod, even if it is one shot. Someone was running numbers on a certain Mongolian image board, you pretty much need the equivalent of 12x lascannons (assuming BS 3+) in your list to reliably disable/kill a Russ a turn. If you can't muster that, you're going to get rekt by Guard (as their hidden Tech-Priests and strats let them heal their armour back up to full, while you waste time trying to clear the chaff screens).

 

GK aren't exactly blessed with options in that regard, but I think 2x Venerables with las/missile and a Raven is a solid base everyone should consider. That's three backfield drops already, and one of them quickly displaces to be more useful up the field. Between that and our ability to throw out concentrated mortal wounds (I'm definitely taking Vortex on one of my DKGM in future), we should be averaging what we need to drop a Russ a turn. The biggest thing is clearing out the armour, Guard can only win by swamping objectives at that point (Scions are pure suicide melta now that they made plasma too expensive, and I've yet to see anyone take anything except Conscripts as the other Troops choice). 

RB's are not comperable to strikes in any way. An RB has twice the number of wounds and it'ss a lot harder to strip those wounds due to high toughness. Yes, it may only hit on 4's, but that's not all it does. It actually shoots MORE bullets from 13" and up, and it has a better profile when it does hit. You use it to ferry units, due to having a better move value. It can't deep strike, but you need units on the table anyway, and it consists of multiple drops when units are inside, allowing you to deep strike more of them.

 

Is a Raven better? Sure! It also costs 3 times as much and it's a much bigger fire magnet. When used in conjunction, they work better.

[Gentlemanloser]

RD, what's an optimal IG list to litmus test against?

 

Not familiar with the codex so threw together the following;

 

Battalion

Lord Commisar 55

Lord Commisar 55

Conscript x30 90

Conscript x30 90

Conscript x30 90

Conscript x30 90

 

Spearhead

Tank Commander 197

Leman Russ Battlecannon Heavy Bolter 152

Leman Russ Battlecannon Heavy Bolter 152

Leman Russ Battlecannon Heavy Bolter 152

 

Spearhead

Tank Commander 197

Leman Russ Battlecannon Heavy Bolter 152

Leman Russ Battlecannon Heavy Bolter 152

Leman Russ Battlecannon Heavy Bolter 152

 

Vanguard

Lord Commisar 55

Tech-Priest 42

Tech-Priest 42

Tech-Priest 42

Tech-Priest 42

 

1999

 

16 battlecannon shots per turn looks scary.

 

I'm not sure hellfire dreads can match that. And i worry we've got nothing to face something like that.

[Zombs]

This is exactly the kind of problem I am trying to solve. Against a gun line list like that, or also the classic guilliman + lascannons + assault cannons what do we do if we dont have first turn?

[Gentlemanloser]

Eversor Assassins?

 

Deep Strike them, and with 3d6 charge they should get into cc wirh the chaff more than average.

 

If they carve a path through, they still have melta bombs for the tanks.

 

I might try a few of these guys. :)

[Seizeman]

Taking 2 shooty venerables vs guard is an awful idea. You are wasting 370 points for two units that have 0 sinergy with the rest of the army and  will, if you are extremely lucky, kill a leman russ first turn and then give the opponent an easy target. To kill their tanks you have to clear the chaff and destroy them in melee. That's why GMNDKs + razorbacks (with strikes) + apothecaries work. The only targets for their heavy weapons are either razorbacks, that are really cheap so you don't care if they are destroyed, or GMNDKs, that require basically their whole army shooting at them to die. At the same time, small arms are pretty much useless agains all targets.

 

With the razorbacks' firepower plus the strikes shooting and charging you can kill most of their infantry and lock the rest in combat. Next turn they will fall back and you wil have to endure a turn of shooting. If you manage to survive that turn without loosing too much, you have a very high chance of winning. Either you finish clearing the chaff and manage to charge their tanks, at which point they have lost, or you keep the charging/fall back dinamic for a couple turns so they are locked in a small area and can't take objectives. Anyway, Imperial guard is an overpowered codex, so against a good opponent you are going to be at a disadvangage no matter what you do.

 

About the storm raven, I've found that it has a lot of problems in small games. You spend a ton of points (plus the units inside) in a single unit that you have to deploy on the table and locks you into very predictable strategy with no adaptability. You are forced to disembark turn 2 and your opponent can play around it because you are moving it into possition turn 1. If the opponent has fliers, fast units that can sorround it, or they steal your initiative and destroy it, your one-trick pony fails and pretty much looses you the game on the spot. Razorbacks are cheaper, more versatile and reliable, allowing to have the rest of your army out of the table for deep striking so they are safe and can deploy wherever they need to. They also have better anti-infantry, which is what you need most. I still recommend the storm raven in big games (more than 2000 points).

[swordofmandulis]

agree with Seizeman, I've been using a stormraven at 1850 and 2k, its the best way to bring the dakka, and no -1 for moving with a heavy weapon. I normally go with 2 stike squads and a character in it to minimize drops, although this is much less of a concern with the chapter approved roll off for first turn which we have adopted now because its so much better. the raven is so good at clearing chaff and hurting tanks and dropping off your units in the face of the enemy, but my one biggest fear is that the enemy surround it forcing you to move again and delaying your disembark by a turn, or they destroy it whilst surrounded and all your guys instantly die :( against a lot of armies if you land right on the 12 inch mark they are going to have a hard time surrounding you completely, but it is definitely a risk.

 

I am definitely going to do some games without the raven, I actually really like the Land Raider Crusader as an alternative, especially with gate of infinity and if there's melta, sanctuary action. also bearing in mind that 315 points is 15 strikes which is 60 Storm Bolter shots at rapid fire range, which is also pretty damn hardcore, and the enemy big guns are wasted on 1 wound models rather than taking big chunks off your expensive vehicle and rendering it next to useless in 1 turn.

 

I'm rambling.

[Seizeman]

Actually the land raider has the same problems than the raven has but a lot worse XD. The raven is actually more durable than the land raider against heavy weapons, and the land raider get its movement reduced to 5' if it looses half its wounds, making it a lot easier to disable. Also it only moves 10', and can't fly, and has less firepower, etc etc. Chapter approved should reduce its cost by at least 80 points.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

RB's are not comperable to strikes in any way. An RB has twice the number of wounds and it'ss a lot harder to strip those wounds due to high toughness. Yes, it may only hit on 4's, but that's not all it does. It actually shoots MORE bullets from 13" and up, and it has a better profile when it does hit. You use it to ferry units, due to having a better move value. It can't deep strike, but you need units on the table anyway, and it consists of multiple drops when units are inside, allowing you to deep strike more of them.

 

Is a Raven better? Sure! It also costs 3 times as much and it's a much bigger fire magnet. When used in conjunction, they work better.

 

Razorbacks are not hard to disable/kill dude. Especially not with everyone tooling up to fight Guard. 

 

Hitting on 4's sucks, you're now hitting 6 shots on average. Meanwhile those Strikes average 13 hits without any help (you should always be in rapid fire range, that's why they have Teleport Strike), and with GM aura that goes up to 15/16 hits. Plus Smite, and melee threat. The profile is better but you will kill barely any Conscripts (they're almost always in cover and getting buffed) plus even assuming no buffs, you only kill 4 on average.

 

You can only transport Strikes or Purgators (Purifiers want a Raven, Interceptors do not need transports). Apothecaries and Paladins also want a Raven too, assuming you want on table drops (as you can always just Teleport Strike or 'Gate' them into position as needed). 

 

Raven is well worth its points dude. It's essentially the firepower of two Venerable Dreads along with transportation for a Doomglaive and 12x PA/6x TDA dudes. 

Taking 2 shooty venerables vs guard is an awful idea. You are wasting 370 points for two units that have 0 sinergy with the rest of the army and  will, if you are extremely lucky, kill a leman russ first turn and then give the opponent an easy target. To kill their tanks you have to clear the chaff and destroy them in melee. That's why GMNDKs + razorbacks (with strikes) + apothecaries work. The only targets for their heavy weapons are either razorbacks, that are really cheap so you don't care if they are destroyed, or GMNDKs, that require basically their whole army shooting at them to die. At the same time, small arms are pretty much useless agains all targets.

 

With the razorbacks' firepower plus the strikes shooting and charging you can kill most of their infantry and lock the rest in combat. Next turn they will fall back and you wil have to endure a turn of shooting. If you manage to survive that turn without loosing too much, you have a very high chance of winning. Either you finish clearing the chaff and manage to charge their tanks, at which point they have lost, or you keep the charging/fall back dinamic for a couple turns so they are locked in a small area and can't take objectives. Anyway, Imperial guard is an overpowered codex, so against a good opponent you are going to be at a disadvangage no matter what you do.

 

About the storm raven, I've found that it has a lot of problems in small games. You spend a ton of points (plus the units inside) in a single unit that you have to deploy on the table and locks you into very predictable strategy with no adaptability. You are forced to disembark turn 2 and your opponent can play around it because you are moving it into possition turn 1. If the opponent has fliers, fast units that can sorround it, or they steal your initiative and destroy it, your one-trick pony fails and pretty much looses you the game on the spot. Razorbacks are cheaper, more versatile and reliable, allowing to have the rest of your army out of the table for deep striking so they are safe and can deploy wherever they need to. They also have better anti-infantry, which is what you need most. I still recommend the storm raven in big games (more than 2000 points).

 

>zero synergy

 

They are long range fire support, on table drops. We don't get normal heavy weapon infantry squads, so we have few other alternatives besides Ravens to supply that. Also with Astral Aim you can shoot through walls. So at worst you have to expose one of them a turn. I'm happy to lose one a turn, if I'm trading with dead Russes. Also by the time they have killed my Venerables, my DK's are in their lines eating their parking lot anyway. 

 

Razorbacks are a joke for Guard, they're going to take pitiful casualties against them and destroy them very easily (not to mention they outrange you Turn 1). Strikes are much more efficient at dumping lots of shots into Conscript walls, which is how you kill them off. 

 

Apothecaries are pretty useless in that matchup. They have to get into melee to be useful, and Conscript walls prevent that. 

 

>kill most of their infantry

No, at best with your entire alpha strike (two Grandmaster DK's + 15 Strikes), you'll probably kill one 30 man Conscript squad. If you take more Strikes (either more 5-man or bigger squads) you can cut down more of them. But you won't clear more than 30-40 in a typical turn, just due to physics (ie they can spread their chaff over a much wider area, and you can only rapid-fire one squad a turn at best). Also due to Commissars preventing Morale wipout and casualty removal being owning player discretion, they can clog a charge lane all day until you kill every model off. We have no innate snipers either (besides Purge, which assuming it even does anything they just pass to their Ogryn Bodyguard), so you can't break their strategy. 

 

The big bait with Guard right now is shooting at Conscripts at all. The real meat of the list is the tanks. If you can't drop a Russ a turn, don't play against Guard. 

 

@GML, the meme list I've seen consists of two variants:

 

Version 1: No infantry screens (besides one token Conscript squad in the Stormblade if that)

 

- Superheavy Auxiliary detachment with Stormblade/Baneblade (they like the chain gun one though)

- As many Russes as practical, typically at least one Punisher to deal with infantry

 

They park at the back of their table edge and surround the superheavy with Russes so you can never charge it.

 

Version 2: More well rounded, still annoying

 

- Superheavy (Baneblade/Stormblade as before)

- Assorted support HQ's (Commissars, Psykers for the +1 cover power, Tempestor Lord, Priests, Enginseers)

- At least three 30 man Conscript squads

- 3-4 Russes, Basilisk/Griffons/Wyverns depending on their model collection

- At least 3 Taurox Primes with missiles and autocannons

- Assorted heavy weapon teams for cheap lascannon spam

- The Rapier spotlight in a good sniping position to grant +1 to their superheavy

 

The vehicle selection tends to revolve around their collections, but those are the general templates. 

 

It's pretty rough. In both the lists I saw in action (at the 40k tournament we ran, and in a game at the club recently), they stomp face. The Warlord trait that grants CP back on a 5+ for each point you spend is absurd, he just would not stop rolling successes for it. The dakka output is crazy with Cadians too, re-rolling 1's while staying still is basically another huge buff to Russes.

 

I just wanna emphasise how bad it is if you don't kill a Russ outright (or the superheavy, if you decide to actually go for it). They have a strategem and Enginseers to heal their tanks back up to full wounds very fast (1-2 turns). It annoys me watching them do that, but then my DK's just eat all the lascannons in the world and basically never heal (Apothecaries don't work, Tech-Marines cost too much and you have to burn a Command Point and an alpha strike drop just to get them in position). 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Reclusiarch Darius

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd have thought catchan would be the go to.

 

S4 conscripts and rerolling the d6 battlecannon shots.

[Seizeman]

Razorbacks don't hit on 4+, they hit on 3+. Also they benefit from GM buffs the same as strikes do. A razorback kills 6.72 conscripts on average (5.33 on the move, which they only need to do for one turn), unbuffed, while a strike squad kills 6.01 (assuming they are in rapid fire range), so math contradicts you. Strikes do more damage if they get to charge, but they won't survive to do so without the razorbacks. 

 

How are razorbacks easy to disable? They require 200 points worth of las cannons at WS 3+ (without adding the units that carry them) to kill a single razorback that costs only 102 points (assuming it does not use smoke). The razorback is also at least 3 times as durable as strikes against small arms, so advocating using strikes instead of razorbacks because of durability is beyond ridiculous.

 

Purifiers don't want a raven, they want to be left home. Interceptors need transport exactly as much as strikes do, as both are just as fragile and both can deep strike. In fact, transports work greatly with strikes for a 16' disembark movement to they can move and charge wherever whey want.

 

You are not trading for dead russes with venerables. You are trading BOTH of them (370 points) to kill ONE leman russ (150 points) if you are really really lucky, as they deal 8,4 wounds to a russ on average.

 

You don't kill most of their conscripts because you are not playing razorbacks... 3 strikes + 3 razorbacks with Draigo + 2 heavy psilencer average more than 60 conscripts in a turn, which is at least half of what most armies play. When strikes charge they kill at least 14 more, which is not possible if you deep strike them (even with first to the fray only one unit successfully charges). Apothecaries are not useless as they lock them in combat by being almost unkillable (besides, you don't get to tailor your list against every opponent in a competitive environment).

 

So, if you don't drop a russ a turn don't play against guard? That's an absurdly arbitrary statement. The only thing you need to win is to get more points than the opponent, and you don't need to kill anything for that. Russes can be dealt with by killing other units so the opponent can't score, by locking them in melee or by denying them good targets. Actually, the way to beat guard is not by focusing on their tanks but on their infantry. Once the infantry is gone their tanks are extremely easy to deal with.

 

By playing apothecaries, the only target for the russes are either the GMNDKs, which take 7 stationary russes worth of shooting to die (that's at least 1000 points), or the razorbacks, which take more than 3 leman russes each (so at least 450 points worth of russes to kill a 102 points razorback). There's no efficient way to kill russes at range, specially if you are playing Grey Knights. The only way to counter them is in melee. If you think the only way to deal with russes is to destroy them by shooting, then you can't play Grey knights at all.

 

If the opponent just deploys everything in a corner, you have pretty much won. How are they supposed to grab objectives? You can just surround them and they have nowhere to run, and they don't have enough firepower to table you most of the time(unless you play venerables, strikes without transports and that kind of crap). Of course sometimes they beat you no matter what you do, because they are OP, but with the right army composition and strategy you have very good chances of beating them.

[Gentlemanloser]

Hit on 4+ when you move. Due to heavy weapons.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Assault cannon is only range 24", so yeah I factored in having to move. It's a big problem for a lot of vehicles in 8th, unless their guns have been changed to Assault/Rapid-Fire or they get a special rule that lets them ignore the penalty.

 

Post-FAQ, Conscripts seem a lot more manageable now. The other major impact I've seen is Guard players just swapping to Infantry squads, or going full tank company. At least no more unbreakable walls though.

 

Getting back more on-topic, I like Venerables as a backfield drop because they supply something we sorely lack (ranged anti-tank). Raven also functions quite well in the same role and helps in other ways (delivering infantry and Doomglaive, unimpeded Line of Sight for all its guns). I'm going to be trying out three Venerables versus two and a Raven, will see which I prefer. Besides that, Interceptors and Purgators also make decent backfield drops, as the former can Shunt into position to support the alpha strike, while the latter is a good way to deal with infantry dropping into your backlines (Scions etc).  

[Corvus Fortis]

I do not have any Razorbacks right now, but do not understand why people prefere assault cannons against lascannon ones. I do not see the point in using them. 5 man strike squad, while being cheaper, has almost twice more shots. S6 is better only against t3-t6 than s4. T6 and t5 is rather rare and t3 is almost always hordes or eldar. And the turn razorback arrives into range, it will hit on 4+. And for 2 CP strikes recieve s5, ap-1. Okay, assault cannon is powerful weapon, but why take it when we can take las? We don't have much AV and why to add more AP when we have lots and lots of stormbolters? As transport Rhino is better and almost twice more cheaper, but deep strike, gate and shunt are the ways to go anyway. It seems to me, twin lascannon standing on the backfield will bring more than moving assault cannon. Do I miss something?   

[Seizeman]

We have a ton of AV, it's just that we have it in melee form instead of shooting. We don't have good melee anti-infantry and we don't have good ranged anti-vehicle, so the efficient way to play the army is to use shooting to clear the chaff and melee to kill the heavy targets (this is also correct flavor-wise). The advantage a ranged weapon has over a close combat one, in exchange for loosing effectiveness, is the safety it provides by being able to use them from a long distance, and that advantage is lost in a grey knight army because most of your army needs to be close to the enemy anyway.

 

Actually, grey knights are one of the best armies in the game at killing durable targets, as we have a lot of high-powered high damage attacks. Even our basic troops deal 1d3 damage. In fact, the best opponent for grey knights would be one that only plays vehicles and monsters, as there is no way those trade profitably with our melee units.

 

The other problem with lascannons is that they are very inefficient for their cost, and there's no way you can reach a critical mass of ranged anti-armor weaponry in a grey knight army. A single apothecary with a hammer (103 points) deals twice the damage a lascannon razorback (115 points) does on your turn, plus almost the same amount on the opponent's turn unless they fall back, which nullifies them for a turn.

 

On the other hand, twin assault cannons are probably the most efficient weapon in the game and the sole reason razorbacks are playable. Most competitive space marine units are based on the power of this single unit. They can't be replaced with more storm bolters because they complement each other. Both have pretty much the same firepower against infantry, but the strikes have the advantage of being able to fight in melee while the razorback is more durable and has longer range. It's easy to see that you have to use them in pairs for maximum efficiency. The razorbacks provide the strikes with protection and mobility while the strikes defend the razorback from melee and control the board.

 

So the assault cannon is "only" better agains T 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8.... how's that an argument in favor of the bolter? Also, psybolt ammuntion is a pretty bad stratagem. It is only fully effective against space marine or similar, and even in that case, if used in a 5-man strike squad, the total damage added by the stratagem is... 2 wound, which does not justify spending 2 CP at all.

 

A razorback is not twice as expensive as a rhino, just 38% more. Transports that can't do damage are bad this edition because you are paying a lot of points (compared to previous editions) for the durable frame. After the unit in a rhino disembarks, the rhino is pretty much useless and all those point you spent on its durability are wasted. On the other hand, a razorback does efficient damage and remains a threat for the rest of the game, so the opponent wants to destroy it, which makes that durability pay off.

 

That's the same reason why shooty dreadnoughts are inefficient. The base cost of the dread includes its WS, S and A atributes, so by noy giving him a close combat weapon you are throwing those points away.

[Gentlemanloser]

I always giggle looking at nid units with a bs.

 

And no option of taking any shooting weapons to make use of it.

 

Oh GW. ;)