Daemon Summoning Guide

[Lord Asvaldir]

So as a Word Bearers player I'd really like to make the most of summoning this edition, both to make use of their stratagem and for fluff reasons, however I feel like I still have quite figured it out. Last edition it felt simple, just summon hordes of daemonettes, maybe the occasional bloodthirster but now because summoning is more versatile I feel like it's more difficult to figure out how to best utilize. One strength I do think is an asset with the new summoning rules is you can more easily use it to fill gaps in your army-if you need say more anti armor, summon a soulgrinder, or anti horde, bring in the daemonettes. That being said I'd like to consider what units are useful for summoning, which units are auto takes and which are mediocre. 

 

Note that if you're advice is just take a detachment of daemons alongside CSM, yeah I get the perks of doing that, but I'd like to consider just summoning here. 

 

I'll consider each organization slot by section, though having not used most daemon units in 8th I feel like there are a lot of gaps in my knowledge, gaps I hope others can fill. 

 

HQs

 

Greater Daemons- I think these guys are split into two categories. The first one is the LoC and the Bloodthirster, both of which are just too expensive to summon as it's difficult to get a 17 on 3 dice, even with the WB stratagem. I'd pass on both because of that. The GU and KoS on the other hand are within a reasonable dice roll range, and I'd consider using either, though I've never used either so don't know how they perform. 

 

Heralds- Main problem I have with these guys is if I roll on average a 9+ for my summoning roll, I'm utilizing just one third of my available power to summon just one 4w character. Maybe taking mounts helps make it a better decision, but I just find it hard to justify these guys over taking 20 or even 30 lesser daemons on a high roll. 

 

Troops

 

Bloodletters, Daemonettes- Both of these unit seems solid to me, and they are the ones I summon most often. Either you get a decent strength high ap unit to deal with high save models, or daemonettes for hordes. I'd say both are solid. 

 

Plaguebearers-  Seem like solid objective holders/screen unit, though I've never actually tried using them. 

 

Horrors- The one lesser daemon unit that has me stumped, considering their change in our codex nerfed them a bit. Brimstones obviously are nice as objective holders, but I feel like pinks in particular just get too expensive for a unit that can barely cast psychic powers, and you have to pay too many pts for this unit if you want to make use of the split rule. If I want a solid objective holder I think plaguebeaers seem better. 

 

Nurglings- Cheap , decently tough objective holders, don't need them for much else. 

 

Elites

 

Bloodcrushers- Seems like these guys got a massive boost in 8th, I just ordered a few to try them out cause man does it look like they hit hard. 6 is a bit hard to summon but 3 is in that perfect 7-10 range where you can usually get the roll you need while not wasting much power. 

 

Flamers- A summoned unit that can't shoot on the turn they get summoned? I'll pass. 

 

Beasts of Nurgle- Not really sure about these guys. For 10 power you get 5 which is a lot of wounds to chew through with good toughness and DR, but not too much damage output. Also no experience with them so maybe someone who has tried them knows better. 

 

Fiends of Slaanesh- soporific musk and their speed makes these guys excellent in my book. Perfect to go after weaker targets and anything you want to keep locked in combat. 

 

Fast Attack

 

Flesh hounds-seem decent, but they are only 2" faster than bloodcrushers and no where near as potent. I think if I wanted speed I'd stick to fiends. 

 

Screamers- man it feels like all the Tzeetch daemons got the short end of the stick. Besides the high movement I don't see too much value in these guys-the mortal wounds thing they have just doesn't active easily enough. 

 

Plague Drones- I'm not impressed by these guys in the index but I believe they got buffed in the DG codex? I'll leave that for someone else with more knowledge on this unit. 

 

Seekers-same damage output as daemonettes, but more expensive. I'd say pass because if you want speed take fiends instead. 

 

Heavy Support

 

Only thing that stands out to me here in the Soulgrinder, though I'm not sure how it compares to CSM vehicles. 

 

So that's a very incomplete guide for summoning daemon units, I'm hoping players who have used a wider variety of daemon units than I have had more. 

 

 

[Doom Herald]

Instead of sorting by battlefield roll, you should sort by power level.

 

3s are automatic, up to 7 is pretty reliable, things get harder after that. The thing about summoning is that you roll to see how big the summon can be first, then you summon up to the power level. You are kind of at the mercy of the dice, but as long as you aren't greedy with your anticipated summon you wont be disappointed.

 

Next you need to look at what gods daemons, in general, will be best in your situation since you have to pick a god before your roll.

[Fhanados]

I think Heralds can be worthwhile if you have the right units for them to support. A Khorne Herald giving +1S to Possessed, Warp Talons or Mutliators could be worthwhile. Same deal with Slaanesh, but with the added bonus of being able to cast Hysterical Frenzy. Having a Nugle Herald keeping backfield Daemon Engines at peak performance with Fleshy Abundance also has it's use.

 

Really though the only thing I've ever summoned has been Plaguebearers (only Daemon models I own) as speedbumps, a role which they seem pretty decent at.

[Azekai]

I think it is worthwhile to mention characters that make for the best summoners- I am not a Word Bearer player, but I think a warptime-capable sorcerer with a jump pack is the best, followed by backfield lords for objective control. The sorcerer moves + warptimes into position (perhaps behind a building or the like) and summons whatever is ideal for the situation. If you need the sorcerer to keep moving after summoning, warptime lets him do it. Lords lurking around havok gunlines or beefing up predators/dreadnoughts can be useful too. Conjured daemonic troops can help out if your guns are being menaced, or contest/hold objectives reasonably well. You can also stop enemies from claiming linebreaker if you have daemons in the way! 

[Vorenus]

Do you find it to be points-efficient to Summon, considering you have to set aside a chunk of your Army's Building Points before the game starts as "Reserve"?  I've only tried Summoning once or twice, and I found  it to be too limiting and too random.  I learned that I preferred to simply have the full amount of Points spent and allocated before the battle.  I am not saying I am doing it right and you are doing it wrong, I am asking to see if you have had a better experience of Summoning than I have.  Summoning seems like a cool concept, it's something I *want* to like, but I haven't been able to make it work for me yet and I haven't got to the point where I like it as more than just a fluffy concept.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I think you just need to have an idea of exactly what you plan to summon if you're going to side aside pts for it. For example, what I've been doing is setting aside around 250pts for summoning 30 lesser daemons. I've found it very much comes in handy a few turns into the game, where you could use a few more bodies and need them right up in your opponent's face, which summoning does quite well. The best pts value to put aside is probably a good spot around 300pts where you can keep your options open for a few extra units, or one big horde. 

 

 

Instead of sorting by battlefield roll, you should sort by power level.

3s are automatic, up to 7 is pretty reliable, things get harder after that. The thing about summoning is that you roll to see how big the summon can be first, then you summon up to the power level. You are kind of at the mercy of the dice, but as long as you aren't greedy with your anticipated summon you wont be disappointed.

Next you need to look at what gods daemons, in general, will be best in your situation since you have to pick a god before your roll.

 

That would be a good way to organize it, I must mostly just thinking of whichever units came to mind but year that would be the way to do it. I would say 8-9 though is a pretty reliable range, especially for WB players, not to mention the difference between 7 and 8 power is fairly large, giving you a whole ten extra lesser daemons or allowing you to summon heavier units like bloodcrushers. 

 

I think Heralds can be worthwhile if you have the right units for them to support. A Khorne Herald giving +1S to Possessed, Warp Talons or Mutliators could be worthwhile. Same deal with Slaanesh, but with the added bonus of being able to cast Hysterical Frenzy. Having a Nugle Herald keeping backfield Daemon Engines at peak performance with Fleshy Abundance also has it's use.

 

Really though the only thing I've ever summoned has been Plaguebearers (only Daemon models I own) as speedbumps, a role which they seem pretty decent at.

That is a good point, but if I was going to take a herald then I ask myself is a herald buffing say possessed better than a dark apostle or exalted hero? I don't really think so. Maybe heralds shine a bit more when you're summoning them to support something like warp talons, since neither of those two csm characters I mentioned would be able to keep up with warp talons. 

 

I feel you being restricted by the daemon models you own, I'm trying to expand on what I have but right now it's mostly just lesser daemons. That being said glad to hear plaguebearers work well as speedbumps. 

 

I think it is worthwhile to mention characters that make for the best summoners- I am not a Word Bearer player, but I think a warptime-capable sorcerer with a jump pack is the best, followed by backfield lords for objective control. The sorcerer moves + warptimes into position (perhaps behind a building or the like) and summons whatever is ideal for the situation. If you need the sorcerer to keep moving after summoning, warptime lets him do it. Lords lurking around havok gunlines or beefing up predators/dreadnoughts can be useful too. Conjured daemonic troops can help out if your guns are being menaced, or contest/hold objectives reasonably well. You can also stop enemies from claiming linebreaker if you have daemons in the way! 

 

Definitely a good point, I've had some games where I only had terminator armor characters deep striking in turn 2-3, which did not work well at all for summoning. Sorcerer with or without a jump pack is probably the best option, since most other characters have an aura and need to be moving around to support other units. Sorcerer can afford to be static for a turn to bring in some daemons. Warpsmith might also be ok but I don't use a warpsmith all that often, sorcerer definetly has more utility. 

[the jeske]

Do you find it to be points-efficient to Summon, considering you have to set aside a chunk of your Army's Building Points before the game starts as "Reserve"?  I've only tried Summoning once or twice, and I found  it to be too limiting and too random.  I learned that I preferred to simply have the full amount of Points spent and allocated before the battle.  I am not saying I am doing it right and you are doing it wrong, I am asking to see if you have had a better experience of Summoning than I have.  Summoning seems like a cool concept, it's something I *want* to like, but I haven't been able to make it work for me yet and I haven't got to the point where I like it as more than just a fluffy concept.

no, it is not efficient, and the supposed flexibility is an illusiion for it to work, demon units would have to split in to 3 point groups each lower tier being able to fit in to  the higher tier units[so 3x1=1x3. 2x1=1x2. 2x1+1x2=1x3 etc], but it doesn't so you would be ending up wasted points you will never use for anything. But the real nail to summoning coffin are A stratas that let people recycle units for 0pts and B the fact that in those rare cases of valid or semi valid demonic units in a csm army , you can just take a demon detachment and have them efficient and doing what you want to do from the very first turns of the game.

 

The only time summoning could work, is if your playing some sort of alfa strike list and have to get turn 1 or you lose. So you take magnus+alfa strike stuff and as many cheap demons to summon [well points to summon] as you can to lower the overall model number count. The thing with those list is that A they lose to horde B they lose to soup lists C if someone steals the initiative and plays an alfa strike list you end up crippled turn 1 and D may as well play a knight list with magnus and it will probably more efficient then trying to do it with csm.

[Khornestar]

I think Flesh Hounds could also be summoned for some instant psychic defense. Unless I'm mistaken, they're *our best anti-witch defense. Cheaper than Karanak.

 

*Our = pure Khornate daemons list

Edited October 13, 2017 by Juggernut

[Doom Herald]

If you place Daemon Marines in a detachment with Chaos Daemons, they lose their legion trait. That is why you don't set them up in a general CHAOS dettachment.

 

I think of Daemonic Ritual as giving deep strike to Chaos Daemons. Dont count on getting anything higher than power 9 and it should be fine, Lord Asvaldir is probably right i just like being cautious with my expectations. Also, summoning lets you ignore the force orgs, which can be useful. I do believe matched play limits the number of dettachments you can field, and summoned Daemons are not a part of detachments.

 

Im glad you are trying to make a go of summoning. Some people are unnimaginative and refuse to try something thats not part of their indoctrinated way to play and try to indoctrinate others.

 

Maybe try adding cultists for fodder and more command points. If its a large enough unit, Tide of Traitors is nice. Also, Possessed body guard units on your summoner might be nice, they are durable and do benefit from being Daemons. If you don't mind leaning towards one god, i personally like nurgle for it with Epidemus granting boosts and Heralds of Nurgle being able to heal things, these both affect Nurgle Daemon Marines as well.

 

Remember that Chaos Daemons Characters can summon too, so if you try summoning heralds turn 1 you greatly improve your summoning ability and more summoners means a better chance of summoning the big power level units, even maybe upwards of 10 power.

Edited October 13, 2017 by ThanatosMalleus

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Dont count on getting anything higher than power 9

 

?

 

I'm advised that the likeliest result on 3d6 is 10 or 11.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Res Ipsa Loquitur

[Plaguecaster]

It's kinda a shame that the stratagem which basically guarantees summoning anything with absolutely no risk to the summoner is only limited to the Death Guard when it would suit the Word Bearers as a Strategem much better. 4D6 with no mortal wounds would be perfect for easily summoning a greater daemon or large daemon unit right where you needed them

[Doom Herald]

 

 

Dont count on getting anything higher than power 9

?

 

I'm advised that the likeliest result on 3d6 is 10 or 11.

The average on a D6 is 3.5, 3D6 would be 10.5.

 

I round the decimal down on 1D6 to 3.0. Thus making 3D6 9.

 

I don't like disappointments and would rather be pleasently surprised so i would count on atleast 1 of those being sub-average. Hinging strategy around an average without tolerences for subaverage outcomes often leads to much dissaointment.

Edited October 13, 2017 by ThanatosMalleus

[Cryptix]

Then there's also the summoning boosts all cult Legion's will get allowing them to reroll/get additional die on summoning and not suffer perils

[Khornestar]

Then there's also the summoning boosts all cult Legion's will get allowing them to reroll/get additional die on summoning and not suffer perils

 

Did Death Guard get the ability to do that in their new codex?

[Doom Herald]

Then there's also the summoning boosts all cult Legion's will get allowing them to reroll/get additional die on summoning and not suffer perils

Wheres that?

Even if DeathGuard gets that and maybe thousand sons, it looks like there will be no Emperors Children codex or World Eaters any time soon.

Edited October 14, 2017 by ThanatosMalleus

[Plaguecaster]

 

 

Then there's also the summoning boosts all cult Legion's will get allowing them to reroll/get additional die on summoning and not suffer perils

Did Death Guard get the ability to do that in their new codex?

Yep Plague Pact which is 1cp for one character to roll 4d6 for daemonic ritual (only for Nurgle daemons) without suffering any mortal wounds

[Lord Asvaldir]

Well that's a real bummer Word Bearers don't get a comparable stratagem considering they are supposed to be the summoning masters. I suppose though Dark Pact is a little more reliable given it lets you reroll any/all of the dice, while plague pact gives you the advantage of potentially getting a higher role. In particular twelve power is much more easily in reach for plague pact which would get you a whole horde of 30 lesser daemons. Think I'd prefer plague pact because of that. 

[Iron Skull Mask]

I always try to set aside 30 to 70 points for summoning some daemons in. Brimstones are still awesome meat shields with their 4++ which can still deal some mortal wounds if the dice play along. What definitely makes reserving at least 30 points for summing worth it are the CSM cards granting you extra victory points for summoning. A unit of Daemonettes is also still good. It is also sometimes quite helpful to have some units appearing later on in the game to grab objectives or block paths which could not be shot at before. The only sad thing about summoned units is that you cannot target them with warptime. But 12" is quite a lot of space to position them in a meaningful way. Just keep in mind that summoning is a rather defensive or scoring action than an aggressive one.