The Space Marines are becoming "Independent Armies" again

[DogWelder]

The release of the new super heavy tanks for the Space Marines has got me thinking about the changing role of the Space Marines in the Imperium.

 

I think the Space Marines are slowly starting to become independent armies again. Guilliman seems to approve of this change since he's been giving Space Marines (especially the Ultramarines and their successors) more and more power within the Imperium.

 

For example he has straight up given rule of the 500 Worlds to the Ultramarines and the 10 successor chapters permanently stationed there. He doesn't even let the planetary governors keep a ceremonial title, instead directly putting a Space Marine in charge of every planet there with no challenge to his authority.

 

The meta seems to be moving in this direction too. With dedicated interceptors like the Stormhawk fighter and air support craft such as the Stormtalon, Space Marines don't really need the Imperial Guard to provide air superiority anymore. (A good example of this is in the 3rd Gathering Storm book. During the Ultramar Campaign, entire wings of Ultramarine Stormhawks seemed capable of air interdiction and fleet support roles by themselves on a planetary scale. Its hinted there are several dozens of these craft as well.)

 

With the growing Space Marine fleets that have added more Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers than before, the Astartes have an ever increasing ability to operate without the assistance of the Imperial Navy. For example the older codicies mention that SM SC and BBs are not very good in space combat and are mainly built for delivering its troops in a planetstrike role. However in the newer books, SM ships absolutely tear through Imperial Ships and seem to be capable of carrying out independent fleet actions without the help of the Imperial Navy. Not to mention that there are now Chapters that dedicate themselves to void-warfare as their speciality and have enlarged fleets (Void Tridents and Eagle Warriors).

 

I think, moving forward, the Astartes are going to become independent armies like they were in the Great Crusade. Do you think this is a positive or negative development for the lore?

 

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

They were always independent armies though. They might work alongside other Imperial forces, but every chapter is a self-contained and self-sufficient army. Especially the fleet-based ones. Like 99% of Marine lore is just random chapters or companies fighting alone against the enemy. When multiple chapters team up or meet with Imperial Guard and Navy forces, it's always a huge deal like Badab or Armageddon.

More often than not, Marines don't have any support from anyone else, even when they might need it. And I think the same goes for other Imperial armies too. All too often the Imperial Guard are going to be holding the line by themselves, without any Space Marine reinforcements coming to save the day.

[graysparrow]

I agree, have a like for a well thought out, well reasoned, and well supported argument.  :)

 

I'm not sure it's a positive or a negative, lore wise.  On the one hand the Legions were broken up into Chapters for very real, very valid reasons by Big Bobby G himself.  Reasons that are just as valid now as they were at the closing of the Horus Heresy.  On the other hand, Legions were designed for Great Crusade style conquering, and large parts of the Imperium need to be re-conquered again. 

 

Personally I think Legions should stay in 30k, but that's a personal opinion and has no bearing on things lore wise. 

[Lexington]

They were always independent armies though. They might work alongside other Imperial forces, but every chapter is a self-contained and self-sufficient army. Especially the fleet-based ones. Like 99% of Marine lore is just random chapters or companies fighting alone against the enemy.

This is true of a lot of Codex stories, and especially since the 5ht Edition era and its Timelines of Showing How Awesome This Army Is, but Space Marines aren't really supposed to be logistically capable of mounting long-term planetary defenses or other military efforts of any real scale. There's just not enough of them. Even with the modern Abnett-inspired focus on the awesome individual power of a single Astartes in the fiction, the basic facts of warfare in 40K means that they'll eventually start dying in droves when it comes to open war. Space Marines are a surgical strike force, able to bring an incredible amount of destructive power to bear upon a very small area with no warning, but they can't effectively hold much ground or even single-handedly engage large-scale forces. If Space Marines aren't backed up by the Guard pretty quickly, they get overwhelmed.

 

I'm not too thrilled with Chapters becoming Legions again, much as I'm not too happy with the rest of the Horus Heresy/Age of Sigmar comic book that 40K's becoming, but it's pretty inevitable now that the marketing department dictates the background.

[Guest Triszin]

I think its a side effect of the codex astartes.

 

10k years ago the space marines were legion strength however, even robby G has stated that the 41-2nd millenium marines are a different breed (hinted at being smaller than 30k marines), they fight horrors unimaginable and dont even bat an eye.

 

so limited 1000 marines made them hyper efficient, and excell in all forms, even space combat. now imagine taking that 10k years of hyper efficiency and pushing them legion strength.

 

a legion strength 41st millenium marine army I think, tactics, and mentality wise could probably excell compared to a 30k army, while a 30k army had better equipment and numbers.

 

now with the introduction of primaris and new tech that brings that into question.

 

 

 

I also dont think the 40k chapters ever really counted the marines that operate aerial and space vehicles towards the 1000 cap.

[Wolf_Lord_Hardrada]

If Rowboat can increase Astartes production, which he seems to be able to do with the Primaris then I fully expect to see fluff-side a new Great Crusade, eventually anyway, especially if they start working on the Ork story line. Wouldn't be surprised if we do Ullanor Armageddon as a summer campaign in a few years time.

[Calyptra]

I think that Marines were always able to function as independent armies, but they weren't the best at everything. I think that's important for two reasons. First, it makes the Marines less Mary Sue, which makes them more interesting. And second, it allows other Imperial armies to shine as well, which matters for the players/customers who are invested and passionate about those armies.

 

I mean, why even have other armies in the game if we're constantly being told how not as good as Marines they are? (I guess that's why Horus Heresy us popular.)

 

Mind you, I have not read much of the new-fangled 8th ed fluff. I am not saying and do not know that Marines are currently being described as the best at everything.

[Felix Antipodes]

While Guilliman has hinted that breaking up the Legios probably wasn't his best idea, he is a savvy enough politician to know that reinstating them wouldn't fly in the present era. I expect him to continue with forming up dozens of Chapters into 'temporary' crusades that provide the numbers required to reconquor lost territory without scaring the High Lords too much.

 

OT Astartes have always been their own army from a game point of view but work better as the special forces storm troopers they were envisaged as IMHO.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Felix Antipodes

[Master Commander Ajax]

Wasnt there some fluff in one of the post Gathering Storm novels where Guilliman himself says that the break down of the legions into Chapters after the Horus Heresy was a mistake?

 

As for whether this is a positive or negative change? I think that the new fluff waters down the whole Space Marine concept. In fact it has left me pretty disillusioned with 40k as a whole to be honest.

[Kinstryfe]

Pretty much what's already been said. Chapter strength was set at something that can be an effective combat unit, but which was too small to allow for just a couple people to lead a rebellion. I think there's a valid case to be made though that some of the opposition faced by the Imperium is too strong for a single chapter to face. There's a reason that every time a truly epic engagement occurs that it involves scores of Guard regiments and Marines from a dozen chapters. Iirc, the third war for Armageddon had the equivalent of a few chapters there, and they weren't enough to finish the job. So I wouldn't be surprised to see more ad hoc "legions" operating as crusades, nor would I be surprised to see some of the more familial legions like the Blood Angels or Dark Angels start to act like a Legion in the open, as opposed to the secretive canoodling they've been doing.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I think the fluff may be getting out of control a little bit.

 

The Astra Militarum is supposed to be the main military force of the Imperium with Astartes supporting them or conducting small scale, independent actions.

 

The Foregworld books are very good at showing this.

 

Against the Tau (can't remember the book name) the Astartes, initialy, attempt to eliminate a rebellion by headhunting the Imperial governor. When that fails the Imperial Guard is called in and the Astartes are deployed to take out the planetary defence to allow the Imperial guard to deploy.

 

On Vraks the guard do the heavy lifting in he siege and the Astartes are only employed at the final stage.

[A D-B]

Soooooort of. To the topic in general, I mean, not any specific post. 

 

I mean, yes, because yes. There's definitely a feel of that happening in the lore lately. But way back in 5th Edition (when the Golden Throne was first mentioned as starting to fail), there was a mention that things were getting so bad that more and more systems were being turned over to Space Marine Chapters as rulers/protectors. And that was, like, ten years ago.

 

So... Yes, sure, kinda. But like a lot of recent stuff, it's not unprecedented and there's been groundwork laid a long time ago.

[The Unseen]

I'm confused as to how there is any justification for the belief that splitting up the Legions was a bad thing.

 

Under normal circumstances, 1000 marines is overkill in the extreme. There is a reason most of the actions undertaken by 41st millenia Astartes are like 1-3 companies worth, which is force that we are told can conquer A PLANET. A force of a few hundred marines in a strike cruiser and it's escorts is more than enough concentrated force to tear the heart out of most anything the enemies of man can bring, and when a Chapter goes to war united, "most" becomes almost anything.

 

When a single chapter is insufficient, such as the case for large ork waaaghs with warbosses smart enough to avoid being pinned down and executed, such as the 3rd War of Armegaddon, or a Black Crusade, etc, the imperium, while dysfunctional in many ways, is more than capable of routing additional forces to work together.

It's kinda their modus operandi, they pull from farther and further surronding systems until they have enough military buildup for the task at hand.

 

Instead of relying on a single command structure for massive forces that would need to be spread out across vast distances, like during the GC, instead the Astartes are self-contained forces, that can respond fluidly and organically to a constantly changing galactic setting.

 

Having a single chain for hundreds of thousands of marines again just leaves the Imperium open to being taken by suprise by the lack of consistent and stable interstellar communication (astropathic transmissions are notoriously finicky) and open to their commanders becoming corrupted and dragging huge chunks of the Imperium with them, aka Heresy 2.0

 

No single commander, no matter who that may be, is incoruptible or infallible, save perhaps the Emperor himself. Not even the remaining Primarchs, not the greatest among the Astartes, and certainly not any mere mortal, and so no single commander should ever control a legion again.

 

It's far easier and safer for several chapters to temporarily combine their forces when it's needed, than to constantly have a singular force spread throughout half the known galaxy, which is what you'd have if you only had 9 overall forces of marines.

 

The Astartes are currently unique in the hierarchy of the Imperium already, as they are the only force that is self-sufficient. All other military forces must rely on other forces for transportation, manpower, material, etc.

The imperial navy controls the space lanes and airforces, the guard have the men and armor, the Navigators steer interstellar travel, the mechanicus control the tech and repair, along with the Titans, and the munistorum supply them all with what they need (or at least most of it) This seperation of forces ensures that if corruption does set in amongst high ranking individuals, the damage they can cause is somewhat mitigated.

Marines have their own supply lines, ships, air support, men, and navigator houses all to themselves, which some in the Imperium already consider dangerous amounts of freedom with a lack of oversight.

 

If chapters tried to reform into the Legions of old, those factions within the Imperium would rightly make absolute hell, the risks are to great, and the payoff is minimal.

 

Also, I wish people would lay off the whole idea that 40k marines are somehow "lesser" than their 30k counterparts.

Traitors like calling them "thin-bloods" but that's from, in the CSMS head, their moral degeneration from the rightful rulers of man to mere servants of mortals, not that they have somehow become physically less. The years have led to some chapters gene-seed losing specific organs, and the rejection rate has increased, but nothing in or out of canon universe has shown any evidence that marines are weaker now than before.

 

Is the average 30k traitor legionnaire more powerful than the average loyalist now?

Probably, the traitor has the blessing of profane gods and millenia of experience.

[A D-B]

Is the average 30k traitor legionnaire more powerful than the average loyalist now?

Probably, the traitor has the blessing of profane gods and millenia of experience.

 

True (and a great post) but the Loyalist arguably(!) has the advantage of superior training and stuff. That's something I try to balance out, when it comes up.

[Robbienw]

There is also the fact that not every traitor legionnaire is from the 30k error.  Traitor Legions take casualties and need to recruit new chaps as well.  So they wont all have millenia of experience.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Robbienw

[Lucerne]

I can't wait for renegade Chapters to occur from these new, empowered Astartes now that Guilliman's let his lapdogs off their leashes.

 

The Chapter model was a failed system because a gaggle of line Marines are simply incapable of making meaningful headway against serious alien empires such as the Necrons- as opposed to assassinations or the like. All having a handful of Marines from a Company would do against a full scale Necron incursion, Tyranid invasion, or the likes of the Sabbat Worlds Crusade would do is have them be glorified window dressing/speedbumps...or worse yet, see Chapters be entirely wiped out due to insufficient ability to concentrate manpower- or fall to Chaos due to isolation. Arguably, the Chapter model is responsible for every single renegade Chapter or Chapter lost to a threat that was slightly beyond it. Far from reducing heresy- note how the members of the loyalist legions by and large stayed on the same page during the Horus Heresy- the Chapter model was a paranoid kneejerk by a power-hungry micromanager that would cripple the ability of the Astartes to be relevant to defending the Imperium and arguably caused everything from the extinction of the Imperial Fists to the Constantius Iconoclasm.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Ugolino

[Captain Idaho]

Guilliman didn't regret splitting the Legions, he regrets splitting Ultramar.

 

Recent novels showed what a concentration of Chapter forces can do but that isn't even outside the norm. I think GW have often refrained to put emphasis on crusade forces because players rave about their own favourite faction so that is what GW give us.

 

Logistically, Marines are never going to garrison a planet. It's inefficient and against their modus operandi.

 

If you look at 3rd edition there is a lovely bit of story from the perspective of an Inquisitor who discovers some Imperial Governor has turned against the Imperium. What happens is the White Panthers arrive and proceed to destroy the star defences, before systematically wiping out the ground forces until none could oppose then taking the traitors prisoner (and executing them). The Space Marines then just leave.

 

The beauty of this story is it emphasised the power of Space Marines and their role, whilst also showing their autonomy. In it the Inquisitor requests the aid of the White Panthers who then thank him for bringing the heresy to their attention, ignore his plan to minimise collateral damage and implement their own plan.

 

A single Chapter can absolutely take a planet down. They target key installations and move on without a rest, taking out anything they deem strategic priority. Remember that Space Marines lose very few men most battles, with it only being the games and mega battles and stories where Marines die.

 

An Imperial planet, for example, has all of its defences spread planet wide. A Chapter only has to eliminate supply lines and aircraft to completely neuter all forces.

 

As an example, they drop pod onto several airfields with 2-3 squads and take out the base and aircraft. Simultaneously the Marines drop forces onto supply lines and cripple the logistical support of armed responses to them. Then the Marines move off immediately, engaging additional targets. The command structure is likely destroyed at this point.

 

It's easy to confuse our own military experiences in the modern world with the Marines, but consider they do not operate at all like us. 5 Space Marines can wipe out platoons of troops without losses or need to rest, only rearm.

 

The final objective is probably different to what we consider likely. They're just wiping out the enemy forces, executing traitors and moving on. I'm sure most Chapters send a communique to nearby Imperial authorities to let them know what has been achieved so the Administratum can consolidate the world.

[Lucerne]

Guilliman didn't regret splitting the Legions, he regrets splitting Ultramar.

 

Basically, the kinslayer didn't want to apply his own rules to his own minions as well as those of his loyal brothers. He pushed Dorn to suicide over his power grab and would have killed him to enforce his will- it's clear Guilliman only wanted the Imperium to survive if it was in his own image.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Ugolino

[Captain Idaho]

I think you need to read Guilliman's fluff more closely. None of that is true.

[the jeske]

They were always independent armies though. They might work alongside other Imperial forces, but every chapter is a self-contained and self-sufficient army. Especially the fleet-based ones. Like 99% of Marine lore is just random chapters or companies fighting alone against the enemy. When multiple chapters team up or meet with Imperial Guard and Navy forces, it's always a huge deal like Badab or Armageddon.

More often than not, Marines don't have any support from anyone else, even when they might need it. And I think the same goes for other Imperial armies too. All too often the Imperial Guard are going to be holding the line by themselves, without any Space Marine reinforcements coming to save the day.

yeah, well there is a slight difference between winning a planet through a week long sabotage action on the hives geothermal lines and freezing people to death[well those that didn't die from hunger and lack of valid power sources], and taking it in a few days through use of heresy time rolling wave attack patern.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Realistically all armies are independent. Even the Guard for example. Unless they all followed the same military mandate and structure All armies are essentially individual. This may be the case more so with PDF's as opposed to guard regiments. PDF's may retain some of the cultural traits and nuances which they could incorporate into their way of fighting/specialty but ultimately are overshadowed by the Guard structure/combat model.

 

With Space Marines it's quite the other way around, Being so "few" and being bought up by a primarch who has let those cultural traits define and even mold his legion the space marine forces are more AKIN to seriously HEAVY DUTY pdf sourced forces (depending on chapter recruitment methods). The most "Imperial Guard" Like legion would have to be the Ultramarines, yet formally militarized by the cultural influences of the Mcragge.

 

Quite fortunate really that the leader of the biggest most well organized force of loyalist led space marines is level headed. Could you Imagine if Pertuabo had been a "loyalist" and was in charge of that size a force. Terra would of been sucked into an artificial Black hole by now and the Iron Warrior would be wearing the bones of the Terran council as a crown.....

[SpecialIssue]

I agree with the Legion structure making little to no sense in the wake of the Heresy and the general trends of Imperial force dispositions at the end of the Great Crusade.

 

The Great Crusade took place during 200 years when the warp was relatively placated, spent from the birth of Slaanesh. This allowed much more centralized command and travel, allowing the sprawling command chain and elements of the Legions across multiple campaigns/star systems to coordinate, supply and importantly, ship out new recruits from their levy worlds on the other side of the galaxy. They were as a modern industrialized high-tech army; each campaign and unit not very self-sufficient and reliant on constant resupply. With Chaos' reemergence, from Istvaan on, we went back to an often tumultuous, unreliable warp and thus unreliable ability to communicate. You now needed units to be more self-sufficient in both supply, recruitment and command authority, able to survive and replenish in their combat area for extended periods, and more forwardly deployed to effectively respond to crisis. In effect, localized deployment, recruitment and material replacement. Even if the Legions were never officially split, common sense and operational realities would have resulted in increasing levels of independence and self-identity amongst their formations, and the de-facto creation of essentially independent chapters which, whether in roving fleets or confined to a certain area of operations, would hardly ever see each other. In fact the sheer scale of the galaxy had already created this even without warp storms - far-flung units from traitor legions not seen for decades arriving back from the edges of known space to find the civil war, and throwing their hats in with the loyalists.

 

So with the essential gradual fragmenting of the Legion's operations, coherence and ability to communicate across the galaxy, why bother keeping this ponderous high-level organisation, when it now only serves to legitimize wide-scale astartes loyalty to a small command group for no real command benefit?

 

In addition to the trouble with calling for and getting supplies through the warp across huge distances, you had many of the principal Forge Worlds severely damaged or destroyed by the Heresy with corresponding loss of many unique production capabilities and crippling of the previous, centralized supply system. Shortfall in production would have been delegated officially or unofficially to new Forges more forwardly deployed or closer to forces, encouraging further independence of units. In addition. at least in the beginning, the ability to produce large amounts of the high-tech equipment required on the Legion-level was probably in doubt, which required more careful husbanding of valuable Astartes and their equipment. Thus it was that the Imperial Guard and the forward-deployed PDF were required to shoulder a greater primacy in combat, and the Astartes shed much of their theatre-level orientation for a more tactical objective-based posture to go with their increased self-sufficiency.

 

While the Legions hold the glory of the halcyon days of the Imperium, the pragmatic realities of the sheer scale of their success and the galaxy's hostile nature were rightly recognized by Guilliman as requiring them be reorganized (along with conforming with pressure to detooth the threat of Astartes rebellions).

 

In addition, there was technically nothing stopping chapters from uniting to prosecute campaigns together when needed, apart from the political pressure and organisational etiquette/norms later dictated by the High Lords in the wake of the disappearance of the Primarchs. The chapter structure is still able to be combined and fight together just like the Legions when called for and allowed to.

 

Simply put: the Legions in the modern chaos of the late 41st millennium is putting too many eggs into one Schrodinger's box. There seems to be little to nothing recommending it as an organisational structure over decentralisation.

 

In the new 'Dark Imperium', these facts I would think are even more relevant. Sweeping the galaxy with another huge concentration of force sounds great, until you remember the problems of attrition and coordination that merely travelling through the warp brings: with ships/supplies/messages being lost or delayed en route, how do you ensure they all arrive at the same time, how to ensure steady resupply for such large expeditionary forces, wastage of resources on threats which don't require it, how do you even know where this sort of force is needed with the patchy comms, etc, etc. These used to be central and very real problems for the Imperium in 40k, even before the Rift, that nonetheless seems to have been forgotten.

 

In addition to in-universe practicalities, there is the thematic aspect. The Legions and Chapters represent the break between the glorious Heroic Age of the Imperium, ruled by gods and demi-gods for all its legends and catastrophes; to one of dirt, blood and iron, ruled by mortals for all its bureaucracy and mortality. In this is seen in the way Asartes are organised and how they fight. In one they are sweeping armies of glory - in the other, a tactical instrument used in combined arms with other forces, while being half-whispered, rare and awed echoes of that distant Heroic Era.

 

I'd prefer if they kept that distinction. Don't let the concept and necessity of the Adeptus Astartes chapters atrophy into a bland mass of legion-esque workings in an attempt to capture the marketing appeal of bygone eras, and the quick and lazy hook of bigger, better and more powerful Space Marines.

Edited October 13, 2017 by SpecialIssueAmmo

[Jacques Corbin]

Also, our IRL military experience gives us insight that civilian hobbyists lack. Like leadership as a prime example. Yes, The Emperor and all his Primarchs made mistakes, huge ones, and with hindsight being 20/20, there were better options. Most people do not understand having to make huge, often life or death decisions, in the spur of the moment, with only the information you have at that moment and your instincts, then having to live with the consequences. That is why any military exists, because everyday people cannot or will not do that for themselves.

 

I am not Bobby G's biggest fan, but I have an understanding of the sheer weight of command. Corax is another example, and so is Dorn. You make the best decision you can, with the information you have at the time, to accomplish your mission. Sometimes there is no good choice, and you just have to choose the least awful option. Then you have to live with the results. Not only that, but often times there will be a review or inquest, made by officers that are at worst merely politicians in uniform or at best have been in power so long that they are out of touch with what it is like to be a line commander. Uriel Ventras went through that. So I guess even the Astartes are not immune to such decadence.

 

The grimdarkness of a galaxy perpetually at war may seem terrible to most, but let me tell you how miserable a garrison army is. Everything becomes aesthetic and esprit decor becomes the priority, as opposed to the focus on training and readiness. Because, if it looks good, it is good. This scenario is how politicians in uniforms rise. When Afghanistan and later Iraq broke out, there was a painful adjustment to be made, as there was the realization that people who focus on looking good in uniform, and playing politics to get ahead, are seldom great at their actual job because of focus on getting promoted at all costs, and the lack of actual raw experience. It gets young men and women killed. I have seen it with my own eyes. Do not even get me started on how long it actually takes to pull the service members who are actually great at their jobs off the bench, and put them in the positions they should have been in initially. Late in my third year of service, my "superior" was relieved for cause, and I had to step up.

 

Then again, this is what makes history interesting. These are times that mark the difference between true heroes and Mary Sues. It's nice to see fallible Ultramarines these days. Yes, they win in the end, but anyone who has ever fought a war knows that you fight hardest over inches, not yards, miles, cities, continents, or even planets. You win in the end because you have to, there is no other option, and the consequences of failure are simply too great.

[Lucerne]

I think you need to read Guilliman's fluff more closely. None of that is true.

Index Astartes, everything about the Scouring, and the newer Heresy lore disagrees.

 

Guilliman was a traitor who hid from Horus the entire Heresy, then waltzed onto Terra and all but started a civil war by usurping power and attacking Dorn and the other loyalists, ultimately driving Dorn to suicide after firing on him as the ignominious conclusion to a palace coup against his more loyal brothers.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Ugolino

[Frater Cornelius]

...Wat? Sounds more like the usual UM hate to me.