The Space Marines are becoming "Independent Armies" again

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed. Entirely inaccurate interpretation.

[Lucerne]

Canonically, Robute Guilliman betrayed and drove his brother Dorn to suicide over the Codex Astartes as an encore after intentionally deciding to throw his father and the rest of the Imperium under the bus during the Heresy itself. This has been canon for a long, long time.

 

He is a heretic-ie: a  traitor- according to the very latest book summaries and events as of the most recent novels from the Heresy to the post-Gathering Storm novels continue to support the fact that he's a heretic trying to cover up his crimes.

 

I mean, he's obviously got the benefit of ten thousand years of cover-ups and mythologizing about the Primarchs by the weak and fearful, but at the end of the day, Guilliman has the blood of his brother Dorn on his hands and seized power in a palace coup out of paranoia and hunger for power.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Ugolino

[Captain Idaho]

Show me quotes and extracts that back up your position.

[Lucerne]

Show me quotes and extracts that back up your position.

The entirety of Index Astartes: Black Templars's description, as well as the full sequence of events around the Iron Cage as described in every single piece of lore related to its set up that I don't believe you're actually as unfamiliar with as you're pretending, Dorn's entire role in canon and his receiving the Emperor's last words and orders in Collected Visions that Guilliman flat out tries to overrule through the Codex farce. You're doubtless well aware of both the entire Imperium Secundus plotline and the cover-up in Dark Imperium, never mind the Ruinstorm blurb baldly calling it heretical.

 

Guilliman's actions- waging war against his loyalist brothers for defying his illegal orders that countermanded those of the Emperor, attacking his own brothers- the Terrible Angel incident is entirely on Guilliman's shoulders given the context and his refusal to back down in the aftermath- intentionally sitting out the Heresy while hiding behind excuses, the mere existence of Imperium Secundus...All these paint a picture of a Primarch whose sole reason for loyalty seems to have been being driven into the loyalist camp by Lorgar's hate for him and who used their weakness after the Heresy to seize power and use it to ruin the ability of the Imperium to defend itself.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Ugolino

[Captain Idaho]

You're right I'm not unfamiliar with any of those sources. None of them lead us to the conclusion you are making, which is why I presume you have not provided a quote to back up the supposition.

 

By your logic, Sanguinius and the Lion are both usurpers also. Imperium Secondus was the result of literally no other information being on hand and no means of travel. It was said multiple times in the novels describing Imperium Secondus.

 

As for Dorn... 1. The Index Astartes articles are not just older material but completely contradicted by the Heresy novels.

 

2. Form CHOSE to make the Imperial Fists, according to the articles you've mentioned (IA articles), the premier Codex Adherents and were 2nd only to the Ultramarines in that regard. Can you explain why Dorn would do such a thing if it weren't for acceptance of Guilliman's changes? Especially in light of the fact no other Chapter made such drastic adherence a priority, which shows it wasn't necessary?

 

3. There is another source of the Iron Cage in Index Astartes Iron Warriors. You'll find it was Guilliman who pleaded with his brother to let him help against Perturabo. Guilliman came to the aid of Dorn anyway.

 

Now, I have no experience of Collected Visions and I'm not past Pharos in the heresy series (I'm not made of money) but if you can provide me with quotes that support your hypothesis then perhaps I'd accept your position.

 

However, having read what I've read and Dark Imperium I can honestly say Guilliman has honest intent. His thoughts are clearly loyal to mankind and the Imperium.

[Robbienw]

I think ugolino is trying to argue what he wishes happened is actually what happened in 40k fluff :lol: 

 

Either that or he is trolling.

[Lucerne]

You're right I'm not unfamiliar with any of those sources. None of them lead us to the conclusion you are making, which is why I presume you have not provided a quote to back up the supposition.

 

By your logic, Sanguinius and the Lion are both usurpers also. Imperium Secondus was the result of literally no other information being on hand and no means of travel. It was said multiple times in the novels describing Imperium Secondus.

 

As for Dorn... 1. The Index Astartes articles are not just older material but completely contradicted by the Heresy novels.

 

2. Form CHOSE to make the Imperial Fists, according to the articles you've mentioned (IA articles), the premier Codex Adherents and were 2nd only to the Ultramarines in that regard. Can you explain why Dorn would do such a thing if it weren't for acceptance of Guilliman's changes? Especially in light of the fact no other Chapter made such drastic adherence a priority, which shows it wasn't necessary?

 

3. There is another source of the Iron Cage in Index Astartes Iron Warriors. You'll find it was Guilliman who pleaded with his brother to let him help against Perturabo. Guilliman came to the aid of Dorn anyway.

 

Now, I have no experience of Collected Visions and I'm not past Pharos in the heresy series (I'm not made of money) but if you can provide me with quotes that support your hypothesis then perhaps I'd accept your position.

 

However, having read what I've read and Dark Imperium I can honestly say Guilliman has honest intent. His thoughts are clearly loyal to mankind and the Imperium.

Actually, it's because I don't care about your opinion enough to do more than give you the sources in question that list the canon events. I'm sure you can figure the rest of the process out yourself?

 

Sanguinus and the Lion both expressed doubts and eventually put their foot down- and Robute is ultimately to blame. Sanguinus and the Lion are both unwitting enablers to a much more limited extent, at worst, while Robute is the arch-heretic responsible for the heresy. In 40k terms, they're the Lamenters and Mantis Warriors to Robute's Huron.

 

Imperium Secundus was the process of ignorance being used as an EXCUSE for sedition. Guilliman just didn't care enough to avoid committing treason at the first chance he had.

 

1. How nice that you feel that way given that said material has not been contradicted in the novels. A transparent attempt to discredit material that discusses events in-depth that have been referred to since- notably in the Beast arises.

 

2. Dorn was DRIVEN to it by Guilliman's coup and this is noted in the fluff itself where his actions are essentially a semi-voluntary purge/murder-suicide attempt with the Iron Warriors...and mostly to avoid a repeat of the civil war about to happen as a result of Guilliman's power play. Basically, the Iron Cage is damning proof of Guilliman's lack of character and pathological need to usurp control over his better brothers. He never wanted peers- he wanted his brothers brought to heel, or "made reliable".

 

3. Also entirely irrelevant given that all Guilliman would have had to do  to defuse the situation would have been to not try and overrule the Emperor's clear instructions to Dorn.

 

Get collected visions. The relevant aspect is that the Emperor gives Dorn orders to carry out, which puts Guilliman's later attempt to overrule Dorn in a particularly damning light.

 

Guilliman is a master of self-delusion who desperately reframes his actions to be more palpable to both himself and others. He convinced himself he's doing the right thing, even while his actions are morally bankrupt on the same level as the Istavaan culling.

 

 

I think ugolino is trying to argue what he wishes happened is actually what happened in 40k fluff

 

Either that or he is trolling.

 

I'm not entirely sure of your relevance to anyone- sorry, who exactly are you again?- but you're clearly unfamiliar with any of the lore in question. Consider doing some light reading.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Ugolino

[gideon stargreave]

well.

 

One of the cognitive dissonances in the fluff (which is fine) is that the setting is both an enormous science fiction meat grinder and a small scale medieval fantasy in space. 

If you think of the various Imperial factions as something akin to the houses of Game of Thrones, or the knights in the Matter Of England, things make much more sense. The space marines may have bannermen and allies due to complex webs of loyalty and honour, but you better be sure that those won't last, and the High Lords likely don't give a solitary :cuss as long as the tithes keep rolling in. Thinking of almost any of the factions as a single entity doesn't make any sense.


With this in mind it's easy to have a chapter (or company or even combat squad) as a stand alone entity interacting with other groups depending on their goal and the scale of the narrative in question. 

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Lets turn the Temperature down a bit lads.

 

I personally would like to see the Successor companies reform and make the BIG legions again. Won't ever happen. But Would still love to see It.

[deathspectersgt7]

Wait !!  they have not been Independent Armies . Never want to see the legion stuff being brought into the current time line I like my Multi-color  Marines as is .

[Captain Idaho]

Actually, it's because I don't care about your opinion enough to do more than give you the sources in question that list the canon events. I'm sure you can figure the rest of the process out yourself?

 

So you don't have any quotes then.

 

Regardless, since this is your abrasive attitude then I will just ignore your opinion and cease to engage.

[WarriorFish]

Posts have been removed. If we are to discuss reading material the B&C's rules are a good starting point. This sort of behaviour is not acceptable and should it occur again it will incur an appropriate response. Thanks.

[Volt]

 

They were always independent armies though. They might work alongside other Imperial forces, but every chapter is a self-contained and self-sufficient army. Especially the fleet-based ones. Like 99% of Marine lore is just random chapters or companies fighting alone against the enemy.

This is true of a lot of Codex stories, and especially since the 5ht Edition era and its Timelines of Showing How Awesome This Army Is, but Space Marines aren't really supposed to be logistically capable of mounting long-term planetary defenses or other military efforts of any real scale. There's just not enough of them. Even with the modern Abnett-inspired focus on the awesome individual power of a single Astartes in the fiction, the basic facts of warfare in 40K means that they'll eventually start dying in droves when it comes to open war. Space Marines are a surgical strike force, able to bring an incredible amount of destructive power to bear upon a very small area with no warning, but they can't effectively hold much ground or even single-handedly engage large-scale forces. If Space Marines aren't backed up by the Guard pretty quickly, they get overwhelmed.

 

I'm not too thrilled with Chapters becoming Legions again, much as I'm not too happy with the rest of the Horus Heresy/Age of Sigmar comic book that 40K's becoming, but it's pretty inevitable now that the marketing department dictates the background.

 

Chapters can easily engage much larger forces because of their superior mobility. Once orbital superiority is established (not hard for a Chapter fleet), it's basically over for the enemy as Astartes possess hypersonic/high supersonic transport craft (Thunderhawks), drop pods, teleportarium pads for Terminators, and most crucially the ability to devour a man's arm and learn his deepest secrets. Or just have their Librarian mindjack somebody. Standard operation for a Chapter engaging a rebellious world is to completely dismantle it. You don't need to occupy anything after all if you just kill everybody or plunge it into total chaos that rips the population to pieces, allowing the Astartes to swoop in and establish order again.

[Marshal Rohr]

The space marines are becoming more like the legions because the studio realized that's what people like. They are giving them super heavies and primarchs because of the success of the Heresy game, and building the lore to support it. They haven't been a lore first company in a long time.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm hoping GW makes it so Primaris and the Chapters don't mix well and they end up with modern Legion forces in the guise of Primaris and Classic Marines representing the Chapters. Different modus operandi and all that.

 

Unfortunately I very much doubt this will happen. In fact GW likely won't ever release a new kit for classic Marines ever again and Marines will eventually become a "legacy" army. Which is a shame as the potential for some really good plot hooks are there. Inter Chapter warfare that doesn't tear apart the Imperium like the Badab war.

 

In the mean time I will enjoy my Ultramarines for the edition.

[Beta galactosidase]

nor would I be surprised to see some of the more familial legions like the Blood Angels or Dark Angels start to act like a Legion in the open, as opposed to the secretive canoodling they've been doing.

It seems like it has never been very secretive and is fairly expected by the rest of the Imperium. It's not secretive and it's not illicit.

 

The chapters are very specifically supposed to work like the DA, BA, and Ultramarines do with their successors, the codex is designed for that and they are too small not to. It's also endorsed by their working that way with the Navy etc and is only ever described in positive terms; not secret ones.

 

Nothing they do is opposed to the codex reforms. The heresy spread within the individual legions because of something that the chapters can't do. The Master of the Consecrators has to be a Consecrator, the master of the Angels of Absolution has to be an Angel of Absolution. If the DA gendered mutates to become chaotic, and Azrael becomes corrupted, then he can gather together his body guard and his loyal commanders, make them change the method of training recruits, pit them against the imperium, take them to a profane place to show them the miracles of chaos and corrupt them. However, he can't then transfer the members of his coterie to another chapter, demote the current master and put his crony in charge.

 

That's what you saw happen in the Heresy, that's what Horus and abaddon did to their commands and what happened on the Eisenstein. The corrupted officers were given the best companies and the best ships, in the central legion operations where they could have the most influence. The Imperial loyalists in the traitor legions were denied promotion and and sidelined, sent to the periphery of the legion or on suicidal missions.

 

Dante, Azrael, and Calgar can't do that, they can't order the transfer of allied / subordinate chapters' ships to their own favorite officers, they can't change the training or promotion inside of the other chapters, because the chaplains and officers of those chapters are in charge of those things.

 

Actually, working together the way the UM, BA, and DA successors do is the best guard against heresy. That's what allows them to check each other. If Calgar did encourage the other chapters to promote someone who has a tentacle for a nose, even with all the good justifications available, the chapters' autochthony could assert itself and interrogate whether that choice is truly the best one for the Imperium, and why else it would be suggested.

[Kinstryfe]

The only problem with that is, of course, that Calgar and Azrael were still often regarded as the head honcho. It would have been different if we'd seen an example where the Ultramarines Chapter Master voluntarily backed down and gave command to the Chapter Master of the Novamarines or Praetors of Orpheus, but he was still always defacto the highest in command simply because he was the Master of the Legion, rather than a successor. Same with Azrael, the CM of The First is the highest rank in the order, with successor CMs ranking next. I have no doubt that if Azrael wanted to have ambassadors from his chaplaincy attached to each successor to relay newly discovered "information about their hunt" to their chaplaincy, that they would be accepted by most, if not all, successors. There's even an Ultramarines successor (can't remember which) that will attach whole companies to the Ultras when they're rebuilding their numbers, and the Honour Company that's made up of (and reinforces bonds between) their successors. So while Chapters do enforce a small amount of insulation from taint, in practice it is very one directional. A tainted CM of the Mortifactors won't likely take down more than one chapter, while a tainted CM of certain first founding chapters could conceivably do a whole lot of damage.

 

Now, chapters with little connection or even no knowledge of their progenitors are where absolute insulation comes in handy, as they are thoroughly outside of the Legion structures. Likewise, not all legions feel the same way. The Blood Angels, when faced with potential extinction, had some of their successors go so far as to suggest the BAs be broken down to reinforce their chapters, as losing a first founding chapter isn't unheard of. I'd also wager that the sons of Dorn may keep their autonomy a bit better, if only because of the relative prestige of the Templars and the extermination of the original Fists and subsequent reforming could very well make claims of exactly who should be in charge a little difficult to reconcile.

 

The end result is, of course, an interesting theoretical scenario where even if the Legions reform, there would still be hundreds of chapter sized forces acting independently, unless they started grouping together as a Legion of unknown sons, which could actually be pretty darn cool. "They claim heritage spanning over ten thousand years. They claim to be the heirs to The Emperor's great works. Are we not every bit their equal on the field of battle? Are we not every bit The Emperor's creations that they are? We may not know our fathers, but we know our brothers, and they are legion..."

[Tamiel]

While Guilliman has hinted that breaking up the Legios probably wasn't his best idea, he is a savvy enough politician to know that reinstating them wouldn't fly in the present era. I expect him to continue with forming up dozens of Chapters into 'temporary' crusades that provide the numbers required to reconquor lost territory without scaring the High Lords too much.

 

OT Astartes have always been their own army from a game point of view but work better as the special forces storm troopers they were envisaged as IMHO.

 

Guilliman straight up fired (and I think even executed) some of the High Lords that he thought were corrupt. He replaced them with hand picked individuals. I don't think Guilliman is afraid of the High Lords in any way.

[Kastor Krieg]

Yeah, he has a full mandate, for better or worse.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Kastor Krieg

[Captain Idaho]

@ Kinstryfe: interesting point. The Chapters do always submit on campaign to their Primogenitor.

 

I would add to that though. None of those Chapters have told their progeny to do anything heretical so the chain of command in campaign isn't necessarily relevant to any traitorous actions.

[Marshal Rohr]

The thing about not knowing your Primogenitor is that it's impossible to remain ignorant with some simple testing. If you can spit in a cup and some company can map the genes and tell which of your ancestors had an affair with a one legged Irish hooker, a hyperadvanced genetically engineered organ like the geneseed will be easy to identify. Chapters cannot exist while Primarchs live. It's impossible, by the laws of the setting, for a marine not to feel some form of deference or reverence to their Primarch.

[jwr]

They kind of painted themselves into a corner.  Bring back Primarchs to leverage the popularity of HH and 30K.  When they did that, they now had to reconcile a Primarch with the "reality" which is the Astartes' place in the Imperium...and it ain't what it was in the HH days.  We get to pretend they're the most important military force because the tabletop and much of the lore involves small unit actions, but if you look at the actual military power of all the loyal Chapters combined against the rest of the Imperium, it looks a lot like the High Lords have kept the Astartes right on the brink between military effectiveness and extinction.   Their numbers are controlled, their ability to stand up successors is controlled, replacing armaments is controlled, the anti-Astartes Chapters (why assume the Minotaurs are the only one), the AM alone outnumbering the Astartes on the order of thousands to one, and let's not even get into the Navy and exterminatus capabilities.  So, they bring back G-man, he's not going to waltz in and take over in the face of all that.   "Now that I'm back, I'm taking over".  "No, you're not".  "I have a hundred Chapters at my call"   *pushes the Order 66 button* "Not anymore you don't"  So, to get the lore on track, he has to do something about the High Lords, and they have to write in military parity (they suddenly have superheavies, great air support and a kick-ass fleet) to make that possible. 

 

So, I understand why.   I'm not sure I like it; I really liked the concept that the Imperium had this military force that while not strategically significant, served as both the living embodiment of the Emperor and a reminder of the Imperium being torn apart in the HH, and the concept that the Imperium, because of this balancing act with the Astartes, was always on the brink.  But, GW didn't ask my opinion and whether I wanted to see the power and significance of the rest of the Imperium neutered (by increasing the power of the Astartes that much that fast) so the Ultramarines (and by extension, all the loyal chapters) could be free of the yoke.  Making the Astartes that strategically powerful, the balance between the Imperium and their enemies has now tipped.    Of course, because of that, I would think they are going to have to write something in that gets the imperium back to the brink of defeat.   Maybe the Lion wakes up and has a difference of opinion with the G-man. 

[TrexPushups]

If Rowboat can increase Astartes production, which he seems to be able to do with the Primaris then I fully expect to see fluff-side a new Great Crusade, eventually anyway, especially if they start working on the Ork story line. Wouldn't be surprised if we do Ullanor Armageddon as a summer campaign in a few years time.

 

Since it takes one marine to grow two and Cawl stabilized the gene seed the mere fact that 10,000 or so more marines were created means they have the oppurtunity to create 20,000 more than they otherwise would have been able to make.

 

The plague wars will have been brutal regarding this though making significant losses that can't have the geneseed recovered.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

They kind of painted themselves into a corner.  Bring back Primarchs to leverage the popularity of HH and 30K.  When they did that, they now had to reconcile a Primarch with the "reality" which is the Astartes' place in the Imperium...and it ain't what it was in the HH days.  We get to pretend they're the most important military force because the tabletop and much of the lore involves small unit actions, but if you look at the actual military power of all the loyal Chapters combined against the rest of the Imperium, it looks a lot like the High Lords have kept the Astartes right on the brink between military effectiveness and extinction.   Their numbers are controlled, their ability to stand up successors is controlled, replacing armaments is controlled, the anti-Astartes Chapters (why assume the Minotaurs are the only one), the AM alone outnumbering the Astartes on the order of thousands to one, and let's not even get into the Navy and exterminatus capabilities.  So, they bring back G-man, he's not going to waltz in and take over in the face of all that.   "Now that I'm back, I'm taking over".  "No, you're not".  "I have a hundred Chapters at my call"   *pushes the Order 66 button* "Not anymore you don't"  So, to get the lore on track, he has to do something about the High Lords, and they have to write in military parity (they suddenly have superheavies, great air support and a kick-ass fleet) to make that possible. 

 

So, I understand why.   I'm not sure I like it; I really liked the concept that the Imperium had this military force that while not strategically significant, served as both the living embodiment of the Emperor and a reminder of the Imperium being torn apart in the HH, and the concept that the Imperium, because of this balancing act with the Astartes, was always on the brink.  But, GW didn't ask my opinion and whether I wanted to see the power and significance of the rest of the Imperium neutered (by increasing the power of the Astartes that much that fast) so the Ultramarines (and by extension, all the loyal chapters) could be free of the yoke.  Making the Astartes that strategically powerful, the balance between the Imperium and their enemies has now tipped.    Of course, because of that, I would think they are going to have to write something in that gets the imperium back to the brink of defeat.   Maybe the Lion wakes up and has a difference of opinion with the G-man.

 

99% of the most important Imperial presence is going to be the Navy, Imperial Guard in general, and probably the Titan Legions. That's just reality (in a fictional setting). But I like to think Space Marines are like the Navy SEALs of the setting. The war in Iraq involved a lot of coalition forces/US military, but you always see the focus being on either the US Marines or the Navy SEALs who took out bin Laden. The SEALs in particular are a lot like the Space Marines. You'll be hearing all this news coverage about the military, won't hear a peep about the SEALs, then all of a sudden, "THIS JUST IN, NAVY SEALS KILL BIN LADEN" and that's the entire focus of everyone's attention.

 

Returning a Primarch and renewed Astartes presence and resurgence in numbers is going to bring back echoes of the Great Crusade and place more emphasis on the chapters intruding on other Imperial military affairs. That's simply the inherent nature of their concept and unavoidable. I don't think it really detracts from anything though since the setting has always been militarily unrealistic, especially on the Imperium's side.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Brother Tyler
Profanity, including that disguised with special characters, is not allowed per the B&C forum rules.

[Ascanius]

It seems highly unlikely the hypothetical question of what successor chapters would do if their primogenitor fell, and attempted to persuade or command its successors to go along, will ever be explored, since Games Workshop's highly unlikely to ever have one of the First Founding chapters fall in the first place.

 

Even a singular instance of a corrupted Chapter Master is a hard story to tell, because either the heresy ends abruptly at the hands of company captains or others in the chapter, or it goes on for long enough that the whole chapter can be considered complicit.

 

I guess you could do something like "Captain Soandso of the 7th Company of the Raven Guard falls to Chaos, and tries to take those elements of the Raptors and Revilers fighting under his command in War Zone Whateverus with him."