"Always attacks first" useless in current incarnation?

[Frater Cornelius]

Lets talk about always attacking first. There are just two scenarios where I found that rule to be useful. Either a unit with that rule gets charged by two enemy units, the first enemy unit attacks and does not kill it, your unit strikes back and managed to do enough damage to the one unit that has no attacked yet so that the damage is severely limited. The second scenario is when two units with ASF get charged by one unit each. After the first charger attacked, the non-damaged unit can attack the charger that has not attacked yet and cripple it.

 

To be fair, those scenarios are rather niche and can be avoided. You also need to consider that most of the time, there will not be much left of the charged unit. Melee is already sort of limited compared to shooting, so that only the best melee fighters actually get to do it on a regular basis. A charging unit will most likely be more than up to the task to cripple the defender first. Outside of a last-ditch attempt like a Tactical Squad charging Khorne Berserkers, I do not see the defending unit getting to use its rule to much effect.

 

My suggestion is to make a unit that "always strikes first" to truly always strike first, even before chargers. This would make charging said unit a real consideration and make the rule pretty relevant on the defence without impacting its offensive capabilities. Create a third pool. First those that always attack first do their alternating attacks, then the those that charged and then the rest.

 

Thoughts?

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I've only played two games in 8th Ed., both were 1k pts and neither were 'competitive' so be ready with the NaCl...

 

I don't agree. It could be far stronger, true, but it is far from useless. Swinging first in subsequent rounds is, IMO, the real utility.  

[Frater Cornelius]

Useless is a little strong. I wanted to write "sort of useless" to soften it, but the space wasn't enough. Let's call it "limited in its usefulness" ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

ASF is amazing enough as it is.

 

Enemy charges multiple different units. You get to fight with all your ASF units sequentially. Rather than have to blow 2 cp and only get to interrupt once.

 

I'd love to have any access to ASF...

[Azekai]

 

...My suggestion is to make a unit that "always strikes first" to truly always strike first, even before chargers. This would make charging said unit a real consideration and make the rule pretty relevant on the defence without impacting its offensive capabilities. Create a third pool. First those that always attack first do their alternating attacks, then the those that charged and then the rest.

 

Thoughts?

 'Striking first, no matter what' drastically limits how your opponent can interact with such a unit. You can't attack them in close combat without suffering, so the only viable way to deal with these hyper-fast assault troops is to shoot them. Even if you have powerful assault forces of your own, the fact that they will face lots of damage before being able to strike dissuades melee from happening at all. It would be especially crippling for cc units like Banshees or Genestealers, who pack a punch but die pretty fast.

 

This kind of goes against the philosophy of 8th edition 40k. Getting off successful assaults is something to be rewarded, not punished. Assaulting your enemies a table away is not easy; it is far simpler to shoot. Charging an enemy unit first means you were either skilled or audacious enough to get to grips with your opponent, and that high risk needs to be met with high reward. You don't get that carrot if all that is waiting for you is a unit that will rip your head off before you get to do anything. If you get assaulted and your smashy guys die, that means you got outplayed or really unlucky, and that is really all there is to it.

 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Its a tough ability to judge because for the most part it only shows up on a few units. The exception to this is Emperors Children, and for them its a powerful ability. Not because its always relevant against every opponent, but because it against certain opponents they can still leverage their strengths.

 

They actually remind of space wolves in fifth with counter attack, because they could get grey hunters into range with their specials and pure assault armies still had to respect them. I'm not suggesting that they are at that relative power level (wolves were top tier that entire edition), just that it can provide a similar edge if you commit to controlling the middle of table. 

[Mileposter]

It is a very valuable tool against melee-heavy armies. If you are only being charged by a unit or two - then you aren't in a situation to be very worried about being charged in the first place (though might be worried about what is charging). Against a melee oriented army, however, just by having the ability on one or two squads you have forced the attacker to be very careful in their decision about who to activate first in the fight phase. If, such as the case with Slaanesh Daemons or Emperors Children, much or all of your army has this ability? You have essentially removed the 'strike first, strike hard' strategy from the hands of the melee opponent.

 

That being said, it requires very close attention to tactics and the battlefield situation to be used well. It is typically on units that are fairly frail, as has been said, and so can't take a lot of punishment. However, despite their weakness, many of them can be brought in mobs, and depending on who's doing the charging it is not uncommon for melee's to last more than one turn - at which point you are no longer alternating with your opponent, you make all of the retaliations during their turn first (or force them to fall back, which can equally be a blessing).

 

In short: Yay nifty woo yeah!