AM Crusaders and AoF

[ERJAK]

This is just a 'Get GW to notice this/find something that stops this from working' issue with the new AM book BUT:

 

Astra Militarum crusaders were given AoF as a unit rule. The AoF is worded similarly to the rule in the index with a few notible changes; 1) Because it is a unit rule and not an army rule, all crusaders generate an additional 2+ AoF roll and 2) There is no language preventing this incarnation of AoF being used multiple time on the same unit.

 

What this means is that RAW, unless someone else who has spent more time with the codex can find why this doesn't work (please find why this doesn't work) you can take a 30pt unit of 2 crusaders as an AoF battery. Wanna make that squad of seraphim move 48 inches and fire their inferno pistols 5 times in a turn? All you need is 7 units of 2 crusaders hiding in a building (210pts).

 

If you guys can find a good RAW argument for this to not work, please bring it forward as this is the clearest case of RAW abuse I've ever seen and would absolutely love it if I missed something going through the dataslate.

[Mossback]

You can only use an Act of Faith on a unit once per turn. Not sure how that Seraphim squad would be able to do all that stuff.

[Servant of Dante]

he's saying this isn't the AoF from the Sisters index

 

it's a unit rule in the IG codex, which has nothing to do with the rule in the Sisters index unless it references it, I'd think.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Can you explain the army rule/unit rule thing to me?

 

Why is there so great a difference between the Acts of Faith rule being at the front of the Adeptus Ministorum section of the Index (and its page number referenced in the relevant units' profiles) and the exact same wording, reference to units performing multiple AoFs aside, in the profile of the Astra Militarum's Crusaders? Why is it that in one instance "Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns" means a single D6 total, but in the other case it instead means to roll a D6 for every unit with the rule?

[dracpanzer]

From what I gather the AM codex crusader squad doesn't have anything in that rule saying its limited to only one use per unit a turn. So I'm not sure the FAQ about abilities and multiple uses a turn covers that or not.

 

The AoF rule for the crusader squads is just like the Sisters one on their unit data-slate. It just doesn't have any accompanying army rule section like we do that seems to limit us to one AoF on a 2+ for the entire army. Our own army wide rule doesn't really explain that too clearly either when you look at the rule as a unit rule rather than an army rule.

 

If it is an army rule why is it included on the unit data-slate rather than just being present as a keyword for rules the unit can be affected by?

 

I personally don't want to see each and every Sisters unit getting their own AoF on a 2+ each turn. They already make my opponents cry (I jest, well sort of...) but as written each crusader squad does get a chance at their own AoF in the AM dex, and our unit rules are written the same.... This needs a FAQ immediately if you ask me.

 

It also brings up the question of the scaleability of the AoF rules. I would like to see our Canoness/Palatine granting one on a 3+/4+. Perhaps moving our Imagifer to the HQ slot and giving her access to wargear and different icons with different effects?

 

Giving each battleforged Sisters detachment a 2+ chance to generate an AoF each turn would help a lot as well.

[CrusherJoe]

Um...are we looking at the same book?

 

From page 99 of Codex: Astra Militarum:

 

 

 

...looks like the language is pretty clear to me -- one unit in your army may perform an AoF on a 2+. Exactly the same as our rule in Index Imperium 2. 

 

 

[Beams]

I guess people are thinking that each Crusader squad grants one use of the ability; as each Crusader let's you roll a dice, and on a 2+, one unit gets to use it?

 

I'd say that's super wrong, but I can see the interpretation.

[CrusherJoe]

Always remember Joe's Rules for Interpreting Rules:

 

1. Remember 40K is a permissive ruleset -- just because it doesn't say you can't doesn't mean you can

2. If there are 2 or more interpretations of a rule, always choose the one that grants the least advantage/is the less broken

 

...if you stick with those two things, you'll find opportunities for Rules Lawyering vanish.

[Commander Dawnstar]

So to perhaps flip this question around:

 

Given that the wording in the AM Codex is different, if only by omitting the section about units performing multiple Acts, should it be treated as just another occurrence of the rule in the Index or is there actually an argument that fielding a single unit of Astra Militarum Crusaders would grant an army with other instances of the Acts of Faith rule an additional 2+ Act of Faith per turn?

 

On top of that, is there an argument that specifically using the Acts of Faith rule from the AM Crusaders rather than the Adeptus Ministorum version (even in the instance that the Crusaders don't grant you an additional 2+ AoF) would allow you to supersede the restriction from the Index and have a unit perform two Acts of Faith in a single turn?

Edited October 14, 2017 by Commander Dawnstar

[dracpanzer]

Always remember ...if you stick with those two things, you'll find opportunities for Rules Lawyering vanish.

Not disagreeing with any of your points. There is wiggle room with the crusader write up though when you have more than one unit of them. It isn't how I want it, but I know of several AM players who are already using it this way. A FAQ on it would be great, we don't need any additional heat coming our way if this gets out of hand.

Edited October 14, 2017 by dracpanzer

[CrusherJoe]

The rule reads:

 

"Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, one unit from your army with this ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list:" (emphasis mine)

 

Nowhere in there is even the implication that you should roll the D6 that grants the AoF on a 2+ more than once. It doesn't say to do it for each unit. There's literally no wiggle room to read it any other way unless you're desperately trying to get more than one D6 roll for your entire army.

 

Speaking as a TO, I'd smack anyone trying to pull it any other way with a rolled-up newspaper, point, laugh, and tell them...

 

 

....waaaaaiiiiiit for it...

 

 

....THAT'S NOT HOW THE FORCE ACT OF FAITH WORKS!

 

(but seriously, anyone trying to play it different is attempting to cheat)

Edited October 14, 2017 by CrusherJoe

[dracpanzer]

I don't have a horse in this race, but I have seen several ImpSoup players win the argument that since each of their units has this listed as an ability, they each get it. No need for your explenation on my part. But other TO's have allowed it since there is nothing like that amongst the army rules for AM. I suppose for the players using it like this, they are rather impressed that its a unit ability and not an army ability.

 

Again I don't agree with that mind set. I am just sensitive that if it lingers out there without a FAQ. It might add to the weight of complaints about SoB and Celestine (in particular) causing us to get lined up for the nerf bat. Mostly because ImpSoup is a thing sadly.

Edited October 14, 2017 by dracpanzer

[CrusherJoe]

Oh we're already in line for the nerf bat. We're getting nothing but coal in out stockings and points added to our Celestines come Chapter Approved.

[dracpanzer]

Wish you were wrong.

[Servant of Dante]

There’s also nothing there that says toll only 1 dies. Every crusader squad has the rules, therefore you roll 1 die for each crusader squad.

 

Same way an Imagifier says to roll a die and on a 4+ one AS unit within 6” performs an AoF.

 

Since each unit has the rule, you’d need a restriction to only roll one die, if this wasn’t the case, the Simulacrum Imperials wouldn’t work. Not sure why people are claiming this is super cut and dry that you only roll

One die; it certainly doesn’t seem that way to me.

 

I mean, I think I’d want to play that you only roll 1 die, that’s likely the RAI here, but as written I don’t see anything that says you roll one die no matter how many instances of the rule exist in your army

[ERJAK]

The rule reads:

 

"Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, one unit from your army with this ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list:" (emphasis mine)

 

Nowhere in there is even the implication that you should roll the D6 that grants the AoF on a 2+ more than once. It doesn't say to do it for each unit. There's literally no wiggle room to read it any other way unless you're desperately trying to get more than one D6 roll for your entire army.

 

Speaking as a TO, I'd smack anyone trying to pull it any other way with a rolled-up newspaper, point, laugh, and tell them...

 

 

....waaaaaiiiiiit for it...

 

 

....THAT'S NOT HOW THE FORCE ACT OF FAITH WORKS!

 

(but seriously, anyone trying to play it different is attempting to cheat)

How AoFs work in the index is irrelevent, this is the AM book and has exactly nothing to do with the index anymore.

 

As for what you're saying, the wording you've emphasized doesn't necessarily mean the thing you're claiming it does. Several other abilities say 'roll a D6 if X result Y happens, hospitaller's for example. But each hospitaller on the board get an independent roll from each other, so what part of the language of 'Roll a d6 at the start of your turns' makes the rule exclusive to that unit compared to other 'roll a d6' abilities? Is there perhaps some precedent in reanimation protocols that can be used? Or does the wording for RP support/have nothing to do with it. What about the way the rule is written stops it from stacking with the index rule?

 

It is 100000000000% obvious that this is NOT the intent of the rule and I'm very specifically looking for ways to argue AGAINST it and despite all your passion, you haven't come up with a more compelling reasoning than 'because you shouldn't' either.

 

If I call a TO over who isn't super familiar with SoB and who prefers RAW to RAI, how do I argue that he DOESN'T get and extra AoF for each crusader unit when in the dataslate it says 'roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns'

[Servant of Dante]

Yeah, I haven't seen anyone here argue that you should be allowing more than 1 AoF per army per turn

 

Just that the RAW is dubious at best (I'm agreeing with ERJAK here).

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I think the most natural reading  of the Crusaders rule is that you get a D6 per Crusaders unit, as it is a unit special rule, not an army special rule.  Unit special rules are per unit, unless the rules specify otherwise - the example of the imagifier is for me an accurate analogy.

 

I don't think this is the way they were intended to work, but that doesn't change, for me, how they do work.  Its just an example of sloppy cutting and pasting.  I have no doubt it was a mistake (just like the Master in Command trait was a mistake, as it does nothing for commissar's because they don't have the right keywords), but the current wording of it seems pretty clear - just wrong.

 

So, hopefully the FAQ will do the sensible thing and close this loop hole.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Eddie Orlock]

...looks like the language is pretty clear to me -- one unit in your army may perform an AoF on a 2+. Exactly the same as our rule in Index Imperium 2.

So, beyond inviting this all down to the OR and hashing it out there. I think I can reach different conclusions.

 

I think we may've been short changing ourselves for pretty much the entire edition. Especially if this is becoming the accepted interpretation.

 

Consider that the rule 'acts of faith' on all the sisters units in the index isn't a keyword, but an actual rule. A short hand notation for writing out the entirety of that rules block on each and every unit. We can support this with the text under the heading 'Abilities' on pg. 90 of the index.

 

Which means that every such unit contains the instruction to roll a 2+ at the start of your turn and so forth. Now, the implications here muddle a bit with various wordings talking about 'the one you're normally allowed', but this rule itself, only in the index version, makes provision for the rules to allow multiple acts of faith and specific restriction when you generate them.

 

This provision for multiple instances may be the key difference in these rules. Whereas the index one requires you to distribute the armies acts, this allows you to focus them all on one unit and have them become some kind of desperate turbo nutter. Which also compromises the inattentive copy and paste charge. Someone bothered to modify the text, and thus must've done so deliberately. Although perhaps without heeding the consequences.

 

I suppose there may be a related case where a marine player has taken to the field with two banner bearers. Each has the Astertes Banner rule. If a marine died near one, would both flags have the chance of triggering? If the rules are independent instances on each unit, then yes. If they were keywords from some more global source than no. But they're not keywords, they're separate instances.

 

-------

In fact, with the imagifier, its text that allows you to bypass the one act per turn restriction may be written to bypass the index's one act per unit per turn restriction, rather than a more global one act per army restriction?

-------

 

So, the real answer here may be to, ahem, roll with it and rather than seek to bar the AM crusaders, exploit their insight to super charge our own forces to become even more busted.

[Servant of Dante]

Yeah, I’m going to continue playing AoF as if it were worded clearly (ie. “As long as you have one or more units with this ability on the battlefield at the beginnimg of your turn, roll a die”) since this is how people have been playing it and imo almost certainly the RAI in this situation. Edited October 17, 2017 by Servant of Dante

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I don't think I agree with your interpretation, Eddie.

 

Acts of Faith is an army rule.  As an army rule, it states that 1 unit in your army with the acts of faith rule gets to use an act of faith on a 2+.  The acts of faith indicator on unit templates is simply a reference back to this army rule and that they can use it... nothing in it suggests that each unit with "acts of faith" on their termplate rolls a 2+.

 

Compare with the Crusaders entry in the AM codex.  It is not an army rule, it is a rule for that particular unit.  As a unit rule, the wording suggests that you roll a D6 for each unit.

 

Really, the problem is that they substantially copied an army rule onto a unit template without considering what the effects of making it a unit rule would be.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Eddie Orlock]

Compare and contrast the implementation with that of the Sisters of Silence on PG. 109 of the same handbook. With substantially the same sentence under the same heading 'ABILITIES' we have a selection of abilities that make reference to '... this unit ...'.

 

There's a fairly similar sentence under a like heading on pg 133 of codex: marines with rules that make reference to '... this unit ...'. Codex: Chaos marines has a similar structure starting on pg. 116. Codex: Imperial Guard shares this arrangement on pg. 85. Index Xenos 1 uses similar forms on pages 10, 42, 68, and 84. Index Xenos 2 contains similar forms on pg 10, 48, 85, and 112

 

Codex: Death Guard uses this form on pg 68 to refer to some model level rules.

 

Very few of these make any indication that these are properties of a detachment rather than properties of the unit, individual models, or possible their weapons. Indeed, there doesn't appear to be much in the line of detachment level rules in the balance of the Index line of books and where such things exist in the codices, they're called out separately and are based on some army construction constraint.

 

It's with this pattern that I draw the conclusion that things under an 'abilities' section heading are intended to be properties of the units.

 

Consider that if they'd intended it as a keyword only, why wouldn't they've just implemented a <faithful> keyword?

[dracpanzer]

I agree, it needs a FAQ one way or another, because Sisters are already kicking booty and don't need the help. AM certainly don't either.

[CrusherJoe]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Sisters are "kicking booty". They're not awful right now. I think we're so used to them being so bad now that they're actually decent we think they're super great. Yes they do punch higher than their weight in specific circumstances but there are many, many things SoB as an army overall are lacking.

[dracpanzer]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Sisters are "kicking booty". They're not awful right now. I think we're so used to them being so bad now that they're actually decent we think they're super great. Yes they do punch higher than their weight in specific circumstances but there are many, many things SoB as an army overall are lacking.

They do all I need them too, against every opponent I can scrounge up, can't ask for more than that. Certainly bringing plenty of shock to my opponents faces once they see them in action. Hard to quantify I suppose, but I strongly disagree. Having played them in every edition they have been around for I don't think they have ever been this good. Better than ever? Sure. Best ever of everyone? Certainly not. Kicking booty everytime they hit the table top? You bet.