Some help with tactical loadouts for BT squads

[Marshal van Trapp]

So after returning to 40k for 8th edition I've played a few games now and now that im expanding my army more i think i need some tactial advice from my battle brothers

 

1) Bikers: I have an old squad from when bt bikers couls have neophytes but most of them are disassembled so i could hypothetically load them any way i choose, are regular bike squads worth taking or only compamy vets on bikes?

 

2) Primaris: i have the starter primaris from the box and im liking how they add some nice fire support to my army, especially the inceptors and hellblasters. So i picked up another box of inceptors and i need to figure out what loadout to give them, assault bolters are amazing against horde armies just mowing them down but are the plasma exterminators worth taking for hard targets or is a squad of vanguard veterans with plasmas just a better investment?

 

3) Crusader squads: so i recently learned the "optimal" set-up for bt crusader squads is 6 initiates and 4 neophytes but as far as other loadouts im stumped, currently i have 2 with flamers, powerfist, and power sword, and 2 with meltaguns, powerfist and power axes but so far im not 100% sold on those loadouts.

 

4) fast attack: so far all i have for fast attack is my inceptors, like i said earlier i have bikes as well as an assault squad, and i have some broken land speeders i could probably repair but im not sure how good they are anymore. I need any help you guys can lend as far as fast attack choices are concerned.

 

5) Heavy Support: as far as heavy support goes i have the 5 hellblasters (which i plan on getting 5 more of) as well as 2 crusaders which i usually use to transport my terminators, as for other heavy support i got no idea, im opposed to dev squads because its just not the templar way!

 

Otherwise any "hey try this unit" is great too, ill take all the advice i can get!

[CantusMaximGloria]

I have had some decent success running two 5 man Crusader Squads with Grav Cannon, Plasma, and Combi-Plasma on the Sword Brother for anti MEQ or TEQ. Usually wipe out other elite options for a fairly minor points investment and if you give those a bit of padding in the vain of neophytes and one more Initiate like you mentioned with your optimal squads I think they could be great. Additionally the smaller squad size means they can take a razorback to give some heavier firepower to the squad. Twin Assault Cannon seems like a great loadout for this squad to cover up their weakness to hordes. 

 

Otherwise you might like looking into some elite choices for your army. Vanguard Veterans are really great for a fast and hard hitting flank and are some of the few models outside of Assault Terminators that can take Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields in the whole squad. I am particularly partial to the two Lightning Claw load out as it usually tears apart MEQ with supreme ease. Dreadnoughts are great as well and can bring you some of the heavy firepower you are looking for in Lascannons, Multi-Meltas or Autocannons, plus Ironclad Dreadnoughts can effectively be kitted out with a Chainsword(Chainfist) and Bolt Pistol(Hurricane Bolter) so some of those could fit right in with your Crusader Squads. I recently picked up a squad of Assault Centurions and gave them Meltas and Hurricane Bolters to complement their punchy prowess and they have done insanely well so far. Plus carting them around in a Land Raider Crusader basically means you have 5 Hurricane Bolters to unleash onto your opponent while they get to their destination.

[Marshal van Trapp]

I have had some decent success running two 5 man Crusader Squads with Grav Cannon, Plasma, and Combi-Plasma on the Sword Brother for anti MEQ or TEQ.

...

Additionally the smaller squad size means they can take a razorback to give some heavier firepower...

I dont have any grav cannons but i may just have to give them a try, where is the best place to get a bunch? Dev squads?

 

Otherwise you might like looking into some elite choices for your army. Vanguard Veterans are really great for a fast and hard hitting flank and are some of the few models outside of Assault Terminators that can take Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields in the whole squad. I am particularly partial to the two Lightning Claw load out as it usually tears apart MEQ with supreme ease. Dreadnoughts are great as well and can bring you some of the heavy firepower you are looking for in Lascannons, Multi-Meltas or Autocannons, plus Ironclad Dreadnoughts can effectively be kitted out with a Chainsword(Chainfist) and Bolt Pistol(Hurricane Bolter) so some of those could fit right in with your Crusader Squads. I recently picked up a squad of Assault Centurions and gave them Meltas and Hurricane Bolters to complement their punchy prowess and they have done insanely well so far. Plus carting them around in a Land Raider Crusader basically means you have 5 Hurricane Bolters to unleash onto your opponent while they get to their destination.

I should have mentioned that i have 3 dreadnoughts (one with assault cannon and fist, one tlc/ml, and one with plasma and fist), a squad of vanguard vets, a squad of sternguard vets, 2 terminator squads (one shooty one assault), 2 apothecaries, the ancient from the starter box, and i am interested in geting aggressors (i like the idea of walking flamethrower tanks)

At this rate i may need to take a separate detachment of just elites haha

Edited October 15, 2017 by Marshal van Trapp

[Hawklynn]

I have been looking at grav-cannons on ebay. Most pricing is between $1 and $6 per cannon, plus s/h of course.

 

I would suggest taking a pred tank or other heavy support option.

[Mordian Glory]

I have been running a lot of crusader squads and I can say my most reliable load outs/Tactics are:

 

Mounted in a Razorback with Twin Heavy Bolter

Sword Brother with Combi-Melta and Power Sword

Initiate with Plasma Gun

Initiate with Power Sword

2x Initiates with Chainsword and Bolt Pistol

1x Neophyte with Bolt Pistol and Knife

 

Thinking behind this squad is that it can stay in the Razorback and either jump out and counter attack if the enemy gets close if Razorback is providing long range fire support or they can go on the attack and jump out when the Razorback moves forward to the enemy lines. It has enough fire power to put a dent into most targets (Melta shot. 2 plasma shots, krak grenade and a handle full of bolt shots) before they then charge in and get chopping with 3 power sword attacks and 7 normal attacks. I use the Neophyte to eat a mortal wound or Melta Shot.

 

The reason I use the Heavy Bolter Razorback instead of the much vaunted assault cannon for 2 reasons. 1) I like to keep my transports cheap as most of the time I am just using them to get from A to B. I leave the heavy lifting to my big assault units. 2) If I holding an objective in my deployment zone i will often use the Razorback as long range fire support, the 36" range of the Heavy Bolter is much better then the 24" range of the Assault cannon in this role.

 

However, I will say I have been on the receiving end of mass assault cannons Razorbacks when using both my IG and my Templars and I must say they are very powerful. 

 

On foot

Sword Brother with Combi-Melta and Power Sword

Initiate with Plasma Gun
Initiate with Power Sword
2x Initiates with Chainsword and Bolt Pistol
5x Neophyte with Bolt Pistol and Knife

 

Not much to say about this squad, it is a good balance between numbers and damage output. I am building a black tide army at the moment and this is the bread and butter of the army (albeit with a mix of special/combi/power weapons). The Neophytes help save a few points which I can use elsewhere in the army, They also eat wounds first and can fight just as good as a Initiate! I have found it is best to not take big 15-20 man squads as they get really hurt by battleshock (although there are ways to avoid this). 

 

Hope this info helps and please bear in mind this is just what I have found as a new Templars player experimenting with crusader squads :)

Edited October 16, 2017 by Mordian Glory

[Schlitzaf]

The optimal 6-4 loadout is for fire fighting or support engagements. Intercessors for the most part do this role but cheaper. A 6-4 with Sword/Sword/Melta is 147 vs an Intercessor 104. They put out the same number of Sword attacks. And 6 or 7 more Melee Chain attack but about same number of shooting attacks. They have a Meltagun to the Intercessors -1. But Intercessors start shooting two turns earlier or so.

 

The 6-4 Squad should nowadays be Intercessors unless you want the Meltagun/Special. Where Crusaders start to shine is at 5 Man MSU Heavy/Spec/Spec. Where we are about as effective as Devestator Squads. Or at 13-15 Man Tide Squads.

 

Sense take a Vangaurd 18 or so Points. Four Vangaurds are 72 or 64 for 12 Attacks. 3x Init/3x Neo is 12 Attacks for 72. The points can be modified as desire. At 3 Vangaurd for 54/48 for 9, you 3-2 Init/2-3 Neo for 61/59 for 10 attacks. Essentially paying 10 points for two wounds. At 2 Vangaurd or 36/32 for 6 you get 2Init/1Neo for 38 for 6 attacks.

 

So on and so forth. The bigger the squad the more our efficiency lines up with Vang. Sense Vang (with Pack) pay 6 points for 1 attack. And when we do Neo/Init Combo we also pay 6 points for 1 Attack. However that means we need equal Init/Neo and as shown above the 10 Man is better done with Intercessors. Their does eventually come a point where you should have multiple Squads. I believe that number is somewhere in 13-15 Man range.

 

To answer your more specific question. I think really Crusaders should be double ax or double sword because it’s cheap and effect. I currently prefer double sword. And then take a Meltagun. My backrow I am fan of Heavy Bolter-Plasma-Plasma. 103 points and you are about as effective as HeavyBolter Devies. And can nicely wound Light to Medium Armor Units. Especially if you can get yourself into magic. And if you Chain/Chain/Chain in addition to your other weapon. You are not too shabby in melee either. With 9 attacks.

 

Also if you Tide, Warlord w/ Rite of War and Cenobytes are a must.

[CantusMaximGloria]

Apologies for being away and not answering your inquiry to Grav Cannons, I did indeed grab mine from the devastator box and I would highly recommend grabbing two boxes when you can as that affords you 4 of each heavy weapon in the kit. If you have a sizable bit collection I imagine you probably have the torsos and legs to also completely utilize those kits since all you need besides the weapon is the torso, legs, helm, and pauldrons. Doing this affords you the flexibility to mix and match between your crusader squads to find a good combination of weapons and what complements what best.

[Marshal van Trapp]

@Schlitzaf: that's a really good breakdown of crusaders, I generally use mine as close support squads so I'll more than likely go with 13-15 man, what should be the golden ini:Neo ratio for such squads?

 

@CaptnRussia: I might do just that, I have so many extra bodies already built just without arms I could probably make any heavy weapons I need.

 

I'm going to give my whole collection a look and see what I can realistically field

[Schlitzaf]

Depends, if you want slightly better durability but slightly worse point efficiency, you want about Squad to Init(Neo+2) + Neo = Squad Size. So a 14 Man will be 8-6.

 

If you want most efficiency of damage output you want equal Inits to Neo, so Init(Neo+0) + Neo = Squad Size, so 14 would be 7-7.

 

I sometimes do Init(Neo+1)+Neo=Squad Size to get healthy medium. But you are better off being equal or +2 Balance. I currently favor a 7-6 setup but 7-7 or 8-6 are both valid. I will note I run 2 5 Man Intercessors as support for my Crusaders.

 

Think of Crusader Squads like Plague Marines instead of FNP and T5 you have two wounds with degrading stats (Kinda). You are durable firefighting unit. And most importantly imagine Crusader Squads as our chapter tactic.

 

As bar debatably Grey Hunter, Crusader Squads are the single best Tactical Variant as we have several valid setups. Ultimately the best setup is what best for you. I favor a combined arms Black Tide forces more gunlinely or meleely might prefer a different setup.

 

I believe 5 Man Heavy/Spec/Spec and 7-(6 or 7) with PowSword/PowSword/Meltagun/(plus Combi) if you can afford is the best setup

[Marshal van Trapp]

@Schlitzaf: that's super well detailed thanks, ill experiment and figure out which works best for me.

 

In that same vein I notices nobody suggests power fists, i have 4 inis with pf are they just not as good anymore or do they have some other use now?

[CantusMaximGloria]

I like pf myself and plan on giving 5 new vanguard the pf/ss combo for a tank buster squad but due to the -1 hit modifier I believe having a chaplain nearby is necessary. All other power weapons don't have the to hit modifier and I believe that is why you see them mentioned more often. Also power swords are a Templar staple regardless of effectiveness.

[Marshal van Trapp]

Hmm so it seems that of are better with a happy nearby, guess I might throw them into a vanguard squad

[SydonianDragoon404]

@CaptnRussia (great name btw)

 

I've been meaning to try out a squad of Assault Centurions, the looks of the models just hasn't grown on me quite yet. I wish there was a good proxy/3rd party option out there that looked more... Templary... something a bit more agile/gothic looking with weapons that resembled a huge chainsword and/or hammers. I would be all over them at that point. 

 

Was thinking about running them in a Storm Raven alongside Helbrecht and a Lieutenant. Drop them down, shoot up infantry and vehicles alike, then punch things. 

[CantusMaximGloria]

@SydonianDragoon404 I was in the same about Centurions because their legs were so darn stumpy compared to the artwork which makes them look like miniature dreadnoughts. I actually used this tutorial http://masteroftheforge.com/centurion-tutorial/ (site is under maintenance just fyi) to give better proportions for them and they look absolutely menacing. I put a eviscerator and shield from Spellcrow on my Veteran Sergeant  so he has some templar flair to complement the pose he has. Pics for reference

 

I've seen someone use the 30k  legion weapons to give a better proportioned chainsword to his Centurions and if you aren't averse to some converting and 3rd party bits these guys are a fun project. I love how over done their armor is, really fits the Templar feel for ornamentation in my opinion.

Gameplay wise these guys are just amazing, I haven't been disappointed yet. They may suffer the same problem vindicators had in previous editions where if your opponent ever figures out these are causing his pain they will be targeted with extreme prejudice. Given that they do not have an invulnerable save they don't last long against heavy fire. On the flip side Assault Centurions are essentially 12'' kill bubbles because no horde in the game likes being close to 36 bolter shots, 6 melta shots, and 7 S10 Ap -3 D 3 attacks and Stormravens get them where they want to be fairly unmolested with room for 3 support or offensive characters and a dreadnought! All your eggs may be in that one basket but they are certain to provide a great distraction or maul whatever they get into contact with. Alternatively 5 of these in a LRC with Helbrecht means that you have 7 Hurricane Bolters, 12 Meltas, 1 Assault Cannon, 1 Storm Bolter and a partridge in a pear tree. I swear by this combination as it literally deletes whole blobs of units that have 3+ or worse saves. I give them my highest recommendation from a modeling perspective and tabletop perspective. 

@Marshal van Trapp Assault Centurions might be something cool to add down the line to for heavy siegebreakers!

Edited October 20, 2017 by CaptnRussia

[Marshal van Trapp]

I've actually been looking at centurians, i like their design and wanted to try some out

[Ebon Hand]

Now I'm torn on whether to make Assault Centurions or Grav Devastator Centurions.  I didn't realize until this thread that assault centurions could take hurricane bolters... and that conversion to make them taller is insanely awesome.  Maybe I will have to magnetize them somehow?  I was firmly set on trying out the Grav Cents with Standard bearer combo, but now I'm really liking the assault cents with hurricanes.

[CantusMaximGloria]

Magnetizing shouldn't be too bad if you're willing to omit some of the hydraulic piping and hoses on the various guns and have small enough magnets. Each gun and drill has a decently large attachment point so you could slip a magnet in there unnoticed. If you wanted the assault launchers or missile launchers instead of the hurricane bolter you might be hard pressed to find success magnetizing those. Either way I hope your decision makes you happy and kicks some heretical backside!

[Marshal van Trapp]

Totally gunna try out assault centurians in an lrc sounds like a fun time!

 

As far as FA choices go, are bikes any good? Landspeeders? Assault marines?

[SydonianDragoon404]

I'm heavily considering some land speeders myself. I've seen others opt for Tarantula turrets just because they are cheap objective sitters. 

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Yep -> 45 points (If I'm correct) with twin assault cannon or 27 with twin heavy bolters, And 9" bubble defense from deep strike. They're cheap enough to take 3 of them and make some nice bubble.

[Kisada]

Yep -> 45 points (If I'm correct) with twin assault cannon or 27 with twin heavy bolters, And 9" bubble defense from deep strike. They're cheap enough to take 3 of them and make some nice bubble.

This was discussed elsewhere and one thing I learned was that the AC are much better than the HB because they do not have the automated fire protocol or whatever that dictates what the turret needs to target.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

I'll also take AC due to S6 and wounding DG on 3 not on 4. and also 12 shots.

[Ebon Hand]

I've played the heavy bolter ones and they're fine imo. I don't take them to do damage, I take them as cheap deep strike deniers. You may not be able to choose your target but the extra range helps too. I'd rather the cheap heavy bolter and have the assault cannon on my Razorbacks.

[Brother Jones]

I'll post this here since it's related to Crusader Squad loadouts or more specifically the Sword Brother loadout:

 

Is there a specific box where to get bunch of those combi-weapons and/or thunder hammers? I like the idea of having Sword Brothers leading the Crusader Squads with those weapons. I did order the Black Templars Sword Brethren box from GW without doing any research on what kind of options it has. Best thing to come out of that box was the Brother with two lightning claws.

[Schlitzaf]

I just use our upgrade kit and cut up the actual Sword Brothern Minitures and make Ghetto-Comb-Weapons. Use Bolt Pistols then gluing the special weapon on top