How to beat guard?

[durdle-durdle]

This isn’t a whining thread about the guard codex. I want advice from guard players about how to beat guard. A few of the players I play most often play guard, and I consistently get shot off the board within a turn or two (even with loads of terrain.) with the new codex our, I haven’t been able to do anything at all to them. I get blown off with no effort, even on boards littered with terrain (wyverns and manticores, and conscripts plugging up lanes). I can’t come up with a list to beat them, and even looking at other cod exes, nobody else seems to have a good idea.

 

I play blood angels, and usually bring a list something like this if it helps:

Captain, jp, combi plasma, axe

Lieutenant, sword and pistol

Captain with combi plasma and axe

 

2 sniper scout squads

1 tactical squad with melta and combi melta (goes in a Razorback)

 

2 company vets squads with packs with 3 stormbolters and 2 plasma guns

2x Death company with mostly chainswords and a hammer (goes in a Razorback)

 

Devestators, 3 middle launchers, 1 grav cannon, 5 extra bodies (captain and lieutenant sir with them)

2 preds with autocannon and lascannons

 

Occasionally some speeders or a raven if I can fit it.

 

 

The goal here isn’t specifically blood angels help (though I would appreciate it), but general tips on how to fight guard and win now, from the horses mouth.

[WarriorFish]

Your first problem is being stuck with an Index list still, you're behind the curve somewhat as a full codex has tweaks and bonuses from army doctrines and relics etc. You also have the additional handicap in that GW doesn't seem to know how BA should work, so you're in a bit of a funny place currently. That doesn't mean victory is impossible of course, but understanding your own army's weaknesses is an important part of the puzzle.

 

8th is kind to horde armies, and shooting is strong - that's right up Guard's street especially with some appropriate point drops on troopers. That means Guard can easily flood the board in boots, to protect more valuable assets and hold ground as well as provide redundancy and durability.

 

So generally speaking you need to mirror the approach of boys before toys. Even a basic Marine is more than a match for most things in the Guard codex so any extra points you spend on fancy pants and shiny models is essentially playing into your opponent's hands. A Tac is just as easy to put down as a Vet for those lasguns... and worse! You're not going to be able to out-shoot Guard but don't let this stop you from taking ranged support, you'll need to be more judicious in selection though and take more optimised units.

 

Stormravens are good, and get some additional protection from being a Flyer so worth adding I reckon. I'd give it something to hop out and get chopping too, but don't break the bank - maybe Scouts even? Holding back some units to jump in a spot to exploit might be worth trying too, though I'd not hold them back too long as working too piecemeal will get you focus fired off the board.

[Guardsman Bob]

Twin Lined Assault Cannons are your friend. I’ll be putting together some Deathwatch Razorbacks and kit-bashing them to the sweet spot. It’s criminal for the point total. If your two Razorbacks already have TL Assault Cannons then get MOAR! Stormtalons & Stormravens (as WarriorFish said) are an option as well. That Raven while eating up points should be helping you determine the flow of battle, 12 guys showing up in Power armor is serious business.

 

From 3rd to 6th Edition I have never seen Preds do well against my Guard. I always had firepower meant to hit AV14. No clue if things have changed.

 

Deepstrike has gotten stupidly important in 8th. The angst caused by Plasma Scions on a suicide drop is real. If your opponent is relying on a Arty/Infantry combo then your primary focus shouldn’t be on his meat screens. Get back there using Aerial transports and/or deepstrike. Don’t let him dictate the battle. His entire plan is to bleed and shoot, you need to out maneuver him.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Guardsman Bob

[duz_]

Lascannon predators make me shudder this edition. They are usually target priority #1 if I see them! (Read that as they're handy to have!)

 

Tying us up in combat still works well. We might not die as quickly but it does limit our effectiveness. Box in the armoured units so they can move then assault them to stop them shooting is still viable.

 

As a BA player lots of ASMs and Death Company should do the trick! Not to mention your Baal Predators!

[mertbl]

Another thing. We have a lot of stuff. Like deployment zone filling amounts of stuff. Get into combat and consolidate from unit to unit, wrapping us up, no overwatch, forcing us to fall back and then waste orders on "get back in the fight"if we even have room to fall back.

[librisrouge]

Another thing. We have a lot of stuff. Like deployment zone filling amounts of stuff. Get into combat and consolidate from unit to unit, wrapping us up, no overwatch, forcing us to fall back and then waste orders on "get back in the fight"if we even have room to fall back.

I cannot agree with this enough. A couple units of death company and assault marines, assuming they can make the charge, would be terrifying. Especially, D.Co. have enough attacks to chop through Conscripts and consolidate forward. Since our deployment is full, we rarely have the room to space units out.

[Kinstryfe]

Only speaking from the Guard side of things, and having not played the new codex, a big error I've seen numerous times is taking all your squads at minimum size. I'd say to try to keep squads maxed, and make them work to remove it. I've had troubles shifting 10 man squads, but 5 man regular Astartes I can usually manage to blow up no problem.

Also, yes, get us stuck in combat.

[Tirak]

A larger squad becomes vulnerable to Morale, it also limits flexibility for no real gain. Minimum squads actually works better as it increases the chance of overkill/underkill. For example, a squad of 30 conscripts has 2 squads of 5 man marines in front of it. They use FRFSRF, and now must delegate 30 models shooting. Do you drop 60 each, knowing that you'll statistically only score 6.6 wounds before armor saves, or maximize fire on one? If they're a full ten man, light them up, you'll make them take 12-14 wounds, they save 2/3 and you managed to get 4-5 kills. They now have to take a (rerolling) morale check. If you split your fire, both squads won't have lost enough to force the check and will still be around to rush objectives or hit important things. Or do you dedicate the full shooting at a single 5 man squad to ensure wiping it out? In which case, the other 5 man tactical squad is free to do as they please.

 

It's even less of a good idea with the new Grinding Advance rule, since the second shot on the main gun must be aimed at the same target as the first. A 10 man tac squad suddenly gets hit with 2d6 S8 AP-2 D3 shots, that'll take a nice big chunk out of the 10 man, and the remainers must take a morale. Or, if they're divided into 2 squads, lets say you get super lucky with your main gun and wipe them all out in the first shot, D6 battlecannon shots are now wasted.

[dakkamasta]

Blood Angels and Imperial Guard player here so I thought I might throw in my 2 cents.

 

First of all as people have said before, until BA have a codex they will be weaker than Guard, no way around it. IG were strong before the codex and now with a smart player behind them they are devastating. So no amount of advice will put you on an even playing field so long as you are using the index rules.

 

With that said let's get stuck in to units. As mentioned before the Stormraven is a damn good unit and absolutely devastating. Stormtalons are great aswell (yes i know they're not BA but grey knights have them now so we will get them too). Twin assault cannons are you friend, they wreck infantry and tanks alike so take them wherever possible.

 

Ditch the meltas on your company vets and go all stormbolters. They will be better at clearing out infantry and those meltas will never get in range if the Guard player has bubblewrapped his tanks. Filling your Stormraven with 10 Death Company would also be a decent unit to transport. Not overly expensive, lots of attacks between chainswords and bolters (remember they can take both) and a hammer or 2 for popping tanks.

 

Predators are good, but use some barebones scout squads to bubblewrap them with their infiltrate deployment. In my opinion sniper scouts are not worth their points, fishing for 6's on single shot weapons is not ideal especially when its base profile is basically a long range bolter. I guess they can pick off a commissar or commander but they are very easy to hide, and they are not good at killing anything else. Don't bother with Baal Predators pre codex, a Razorback is much more cost effective and almost equally resilient. Speaking of which, you can combo Dante with a bunch of Razorbacks and a Stormraven to get a powerful mobile firebase similar to what Ultramarines do.

 

As for playstyle, just like everyone said get up in their face ASAP and start locking things up to force fall back moves. This is why you need to remove screening units turn 1 to allow things to lock up their tanks by turn 2.

 

 

[CoffeeGrunt]

It's even less of a good idea with the new Grinding Advance rule, since the second shot on the main gun must be aimed at the same target as the first. A 10 man tac squad suddenly gets hit with 2d6 S8 AP-2 D3 shots, that'll take a nice big chunk out of the 10 man, and the remainers must take a morale. Or, if they're divided into 2 squads, lets say you get super lucky with your main gun and wipe them all out in the first shot, D6 battlecannon shots are now wasted.

 

It depends on your PoV. "Overkill" is mostly based on luck, and Guard shooting is just about doling out the right firepower at the right targets to take out what's threatening your forces. If I fire a Russ at a squad, I want it to kill that squad. It doesn't matter if I roll hot and kill each man five times over, the Russ fulfilled its purpose by removing that threat, and so other threats can be targeted. Bear in mind my lists often rely on multiple squads coordinating fire to kill single Astartes squads so overkilling early means a squad is now free to divert elsewhere.

 

As far as beating Guard, at least locally people seem to have really tooled up for anti-elite firepower, which is ineffective against Guardsmen and Tanks alike. For example the local manager took a load of Scions in a list he made specifically to counter me. I ended up asking him why, after the game. They can't really do anything against my tanks, they're not really necessary against my Guardsmen, and he didn't drop them in anywhere near my Bullgryns which were roided up with Shield of the Emperor and Slabshields anyway. He took them because everyone is in the mindset of "gotta kill Marines" but as the only non Power Armour player that gives me a massive advantage because they literally can't deal with my force.

 

I think it also depends on what Regiment you're facing now, much more than Chapter affects Astartes. For example a Cadian list you can probably outmaneuver as they'll often be sitting still to get the most accurate shooting out there. A Tallarn list is the exact opposite, they'll be popping up on your flanks hitting unprotected units, or getting behind the lines to assassinate your Ancients and other support characters, and they'll be moving constantly so you can't rely on them sitting still 'til you get to them.

[Kontakt]

I didn't see it mentioned, so I'll throw it in here: Target priority. If you are shooting at conscripts, you are (in most cases) wasting a turn of shooting on a unit purchased for their ability to absorb wounds. Snipers are useful for killing those valuable guard characters, since orders are so powerful and commissars prevent horrendous casualties.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Snipers rarely if ever do it effectively though. If you want a Commissar dead within a turn, you need a fair few Sniper Scouts to achieve it.

[Bonzi]

Lascannons and bolters. Bolters are your best and cheapest anti-horde tool and lascannons will make short work of guard vehicles. Everyone says assault but that's 7th Ed thinking. Guard infantry can back out and shoot with an order or even shoot into combat with certain doctrines. Also it means nothing to most guard armies to tie up a single infantry squad to shut down their shooting. Things you do want to tie up are tanks. Those can't fight well and can't fire if they back up. Tacticals, Devestators, Rhinos, Razorbacks, and Predators. Tough or elite units don't cut it vs guard firepower. You want an army of distributed threat.

[Guardsman Bob]

Snipers rarely if ever do it effectively though. If you want a Commissar dead within a turn, you need a fair few Sniper Scouts to achieve it.

Coffee brings up something important.

 

Hey O.P. how are your snipers performed against this Guard player?

[durdle-durdle]

 

Snipers rarely if ever do it effectively though. If you want a Commissar dead within a turn, you need a fair few Sniper Scouts to achieve it.

Coffee brings up something important.

 

Hey O.P. how are your snipers performed against this Guard player?

 

just in general, snipers are underwhelming.  i basically take them to cheaply fill 2 of my troops slots in the batallion.  If they do a couple wounds, great.  They're mostly just there to target small-wounds, no real saves targets like psykers and the like.  now on the other hand, my friend who plays raven guard (and brings three scout squads) consistently spikes with his scouts, but that's luck.  He will get 2-3 mortal wounds per squad per turn somehow.

 

I hate raven guard.  so, so much.

 

---

 

When fighting guard, i typically spend the first turn mowing down conscripts or guardsmen in the front with my assault cannons and the like, so i can make charges turn 2.  If i played a shootier army, I'd ignore them completely and shoot everything else, but being blood angels, I like to lean towards melee, and that means i have to go THROUGH the conscripts, not over.  my multi-damage weapons or higher strength/ap weapons generally target tanks/transports if they're not buffed (smoke launchers/ psyker powers), or if they are, heavy weapons teams.  I've started to give up on deep striking in melee units (jump pack death co. specifically), because they just get shot to pieces, and now pretty much just deep strike in special weapons to key targets.  My opponent can fill a whole side of the board with guard typically, and thus, it is near impossible to get the death co. in.  I've had some limited success with bolter/chainsword squads coming down in buildings for a 2+/6+++ and shooting first turn, then moving and charging next turn, but, if they're a threat at all, my opponents can typically kill them before they charge anything more than conscripts.  I'm starting to lean to transported (rhino/razorback) assault units, as they seem to get in better unmolested.  

 

back on the subject of scouts, i have considered dropping their snipers and camo cloaks and just giving them bolters, but at that point, it seems like i'm buying bad/expensive guardsmen to try and protect my stuff, and they don't DO anything.  

[duz_]

Wait now youre hating on Raven Guard and Guard.... hrmmm who invited this guy? 

[Tirak]

Every shot you put into a conscript is playing exactly into his hands. Those conscripts are 3 points a model and you're firing Assault Cannons at them. Ignore them. Your assault cannons should fire into Infantry and then charge conscripts. The conscripts aren't going to do anything to it, so it's a perfectly viable way to tie up a tar pit to make a hole to burst through. At best you stay wrapped up tight and at worst you deny FRFSRF. Deepstriking melee may not be good, but jump packs on the ground do let you charge over the top of those Conscripts, and I can almost guarantee you they'll eat fire. The more shots you can draw away from your Tactical Marines with their Lascannons, the better.

 

Also, commissars are a T3 W3 model with a 5 up save, snipers are tailor made to annihilate them, this is the one army those scouts with sniper rifles will do well against, don't lose them, just always shoot the commissars. The Psykers can wait.

[Adeptus]

If you're taking some sniper scout back-up, then a Vindicare can be handy as well. On his own he's kinda lacklustre, but if he's got some buddies backing him up to finish off a wounded character or soften one up before he shoots at it, then he performs better.

[Guardsman Bob]

When fighting guard, i typically spend the first turn mowing down conscripts or guardsmen in the front with my assault cannons and the like, so i can make charges turn 2.  If i played a shootier army, I'd ignore them completely and shoot everything else, but being blood angels, I like to lean towards melee, and that means i have to go THROUGH the conscripts, not over.

 

Snip

 

I'm starting to lean to transported (rhino/razorback) assault units, as they seem to get in better unmolested.  

 

Back on the subject of scouts, i have considered dropping their snipers and camo cloaks and just giving them bolters, but at that point, it seems like i'm buying bad/expensive guardsmen to try and protect my stuff, and they don't DO anything.

My apologies if any of the following is made with incorrect assumptions or misunderstandings.

 

I would suggest starting over and reforming your force. It looks like a Battalion & Vanguard (or Spearhead, pick one at first) Detachments if that Lt counts as an HQ. Start with minimal squads. Strongly contemplate mounting every unit in a Razorback (with-you-know-what). Ditch the Scouts (they tried their best) and go basic Marines. Add up the points and can call it your minimum.

 

Carefully consider every addition. Killing Point efficiency (Razorback > Stormraven) and redunancy (2 Preds vs a full Devastator Squad). The reasons are Conscripts (human life is effectively the cheapest in the universe right now) won’t forgive you for any wasted points and Manticores (any massed) artillery gets to pick and choose something to wreck (smaller than a Knight) every turn.

 

The rest of the thread above covers all those things from the useful Stormbolter (going rapid fire is almost criminal in 8th) to whether or not increase squad size. Speaking of which if you are going to use ten man squads at least mount them in Rhinos so they can get in the enemies face (they provide prelim arty barrage insurance).

 

Good hunting.

[durdle-durdle]

 

When fighting guard, i typically spend the first turn mowing down conscripts or guardsmen in the front with my assault cannons and the like, so i can make charges turn 2.  If i played a shootier army, I'd ignore them completely and shoot everything else, but being blood angels, I like to lean towards melee, and that means i have to go THROUGH the conscripts, not over.

 

Snip

 

I'm starting to lean to transported (rhino/razorback) assault units, as they seem to get in better unmolested.  

 

Back on the subject of scouts, i have considered dropping their snipers and camo cloaks and just giving them bolters, but at that point, it seems like i'm buying bad/expensive guardsmen to try and protect my stuff, and they don't DO anything.

My apologies if any of the following is made with incorrect assumptions or misunderstandings.

 

I would suggest starting over and reforming your force. It looks like a Battalion & Vanguard (or Spearhead, pick one at first) Detachments if that Lt counts as an HQ. Start with minimal squads. Strongly contemplate mounting every unit in a Razorback (with-you-know-what). Ditch the Scouts (they tried their best) and go basic Marines. Add up the points and can call it your minimum.

 

Carefully consider every addition. Killing Point efficiency (Razorback > Stormraven) and redunancy (2 Preds vs a full Devastator Squad). The reasons are Conscripts (human life is effectively the cheapest in the universe right now) won’t forgive you for any wasted points and Manticores (any massed) artillery gets to pick and choose something to wreck (smaller than a Knight) every turn.

 

The rest of the thread above covers all those things from the useful Stormbolter (going rapid fire is almost criminal in 8th) to whether or not increase squad size. Speaking of which if you are going to use ten man squads at least mount them in Rhinos so they can get in the enemies face (they provide prelim arty barrage insurance).

 

Good hunting.

 

yeah, i was already considering switching the scouts to tactical squads with a heavy (probably a lascannon, to help with armor while the razorbacks take infantry on).  I'm thinking 2 hq's (probably a captain and lieutenant), 3 tactical squads with lascannons, 2-3 assbacks, 2-3 death co squads with swords and bolters inside, and some typhoon speeders, maybe a dev squad or some jump vets with stormbolters and probably a raven.  havent worked out the points, but planning on trying it this weekend.

[BurntheHeretic]

Well let us know how it works out!