Chronology Questions

[b1soul]

Hey guys, I've checked 40K wikia, but not sure how accurate it is. Would like to confirm the following...

 

From what year to what year did the events below transpire:

 

1. Great Crusade

2. Horus Heresy

3. Scouring

4. First Black Crusade

5. The Invasion of the Beast

 

Also, what's the best source of WH40K years/dates? What's the best official timeline out there?

[Ascanius]

According to Lexicanum, which is a better resource than the 40K Wikia:

• Great Crusade - 798.M30 - 005.M31
• Horus Heresy - 005.M31 - 014.M31
• Great Scouring - 015.M31 - ? (decades)
• First Black Crusade - 781.M31 - ? (decades)
• War of the Beast - 544.M32 - 546.M32

[JH79]

Oh man, i turned 38 in September and sometimes it feels like I've lived 2 lifetimes. Seeing time summarised in this way never fails to fry my mind re the setting of 40k... roughly 1k years between the Great Crusade and the 1st Black Crusade. Think of how much our own planet and the cultures that inhabit it have changed in that same period of time, is it any wonder that the Imperium took to worshiping Him as a God.

[b1soul]

40K wiki also says the Heresy lasted nine years. It says the Scouring lasted seven years.

 

Regarding the Heresy, the Age of Darkness lasted seven years...so nine years for the whole Heresy seems too short.

 

Regarding the Scouring, seven years sounds too short as well. I think a few decades (as you surmise) makes more sense?

[Ascanius]

I think the Heresy timeline is fixed with the Siege of Terra in 014.M31. Certainly the Forge World timelines they show us stick to that timescale.

 

Keep in mind that some aspects of the novels and game series predate the Heresy proper - for instance, the Burning of Prospero occurs in 004.M31, prior to the Isstvan III Atrocity and the Isstvan V Drop Site Massacre.

 

The Scouring has to last longer than a few years because that time encompasses a lot of stuff - the disappearance of several Primarchs included.

[Jareddm]

The Scouring has to last longer than a few years because that time encompasses a lot of stuff - the disappearance of several Primarchs included.

I'm not sure about that.  Doesn't the Scouring end with the establishment of the 2nd founding?  All the primarchs would've still been around for that.

[Ogun]

The Scouring is a couple of centuries long. Guilliman is wounded at Thessala more than a century after the Siege of Terra and the Scouring is still on going. The Second Founding had occurred by Thessala, but it took a long time.

 

Lexicanum is better than 40kWikia, but is still has many issues. Its Scouring page lists Dorn's death/disappearance as during the Scouring, which is most definitely was not. 

 

 

The best 'official' source of 40k dates remains the timeline in the rulebooks and codexes. If memory serves the 6th Edition rulebook one was one of the fullest, but I'm not in a position to check that right now. The one for 8th was trimmed a little bit I think, but that was an issue of emphasis rather than retcon. 

Edited October 16, 2017 by Ogun

[Indefragable]

9 years for the whole Heresy seems way too short. Considering we’re talking about a war spanning the entire Galaxy...even with space magic for fast traveling.

[Ascanius]

This is one of the Forge World timelines shown at the Horusy Heresy Weekenders:

 

 

I think this one is from 2014, so there will be more recent ones with some of those XXs filled in, but you can see the set timeline clearly enough.

Edited October 16, 2017 by mhacdebhandia

[mr.crusader]

I think this one is from 2014, so there will be more recent ones with some of those XXs filled in, but you can see the set timeline clearly enough.

 

Yep, check this out

 

[Roomsky]

9 years for the whole Heresy seems way too short. Considering we’re talking about a war spanning the entire Galaxy...even with space magic for fast traveling.

 

Doesn't seem to weird to me, considering how many events are happening concurrently, how little of a legion is needed to take a world, and how quickly worlds are taken when its legionaries vs army. The timeline is the whole reason for expansion of the lore as well, Imperium Secundus seems a result of "if we make the heresy 9 years, what the heck was Guilliman doing after Calth?"

[R_F_D]

This just occurred to me with regards to the Scouring as I know almost nothing about this except from the old fluff in the Index Astartes articles (Iron Cage and what not) but have picked up on here that it was the Loyalist legions kicking arse all the way back up to the Eye.  Is there a civilian version of this, ruing parallel?  Almost a Nuremberg trials kind of thing?

[Ascanius]

I imagine chasing down the remnants of the Traitor forces, reconquering the worlds taken by the Warmaster or lost to the general chaos (no pun intended) of the civil war, and rebuilding the Shattered Legions would take a lot longer than the Traitors took to reach Terra. "Centuries" may not be too short a time span, all things considered.

 

Ogun suggested Lexicanum's list of events during the Great Scouring is incorrect - or at least Dorn's death or disappearance - so which events are included? I think the following must be placed within that period:

• The Lion's disappearance during the Destruction of Caliban
• The Iron Cage
• The destruction of Colchis, Olympia, Cthonia, and Chemos
• The disappearance of Jaghatai Khan during the Battle of Corusil V, against the Eldar
• The purported death of Alpharius or Omegon on Eskrador, at the hands of Guilliman
• The purported death of Konrad Curze on Tsagualsa, at the hands of the Callidus assassin M'Shen
• Guilliman's mortal wounding by Fulgrim at the Battle of Thessala
• The Scouring of the Nostramo Sector

In Guy Haley's Dark Imperium, the Ultramarines are accompanied by half a dozen successors at the Battle of Thessala, so the institution of the Codex Astartes and the dissolution of the Legions into Chapters has already been accomplished during the Great Scouring. It also notes in passing that several other primarchs are still around.

 

The timeline I can construct from Lexicanum's citations and periods of time referenced:

• ~015.M31 - Destruction of Caliban
• ~016.M31 - Destruction of Olympia (Iron Warriors retreat there and hold out for two years after the Siege of Terra)
• 017.M31 - The Scouring of the Nostramo Sector is discovered by Loyalist forces, which can locate only a third of the Night Lords' expected strength in the region
• 121.M31 - Battle of Thessala

So the Great Scouring must at least last a little over a century, until Guilliman falls, and presumably longer.

 

It's not cited directly on Rogal Dorn's page, but Lexicanum does say Dorn's death occurred in ~034.M31 during a Black Crusade launched by an unknown foe, which would mean he did die or disappear during the Great Scouring - but the citation is to Index Astartes II (2003), so it probably isn't considered current anymore.

[b1soul]

So Imperium Secundus lasted for around a year or two? Am I reading this correctly?

Edited October 17, 2017 by b1soul

[Conn Eremon]

It's not cited directly on Rogal Dorn's page, but Lexicanum does say Dorn's death occurred in ~034.M31 during a Black Crusade launched by an unknown foe, which would mean he did die or disappear during the Great Scouring - but the citation is to Index Astartes II (2003), so it probably isn't considered current anymore.

 

The IA article actually just says "soon after the disappearance of Corax," and doesn't give a specific date. In the Raven Guard article, Corax disappears after spending a year of isolation in the Ravenspire, after "the break-up of the legions and re-establishment of Imperial rule to the galaxy."

 

So after the Scouring, Corax disappears. Could be immediately after, could be a century or more after. Soon after that, Dorn dies in a Black Crusade. For an Imperial perspective looking back over ten thousand years, soon after can mean decades to centuries as well. But regardless, both are after the Scouring. According to those articles, barring any other lore.

 

As for the duration of the Scouring, neither the Indices Astartes or the Dark Imperium novel state that the battle of Thessala was part of the Scouring. Neither does the Nightbringer novel that Lexicanum cites. I believe it's just a case of people assuming it's still the Scouring because Fulgrim and his Legion were not confined to the Eye of Terror. For all we know, they already had been or their continued presence outside of the Eye did not preclude the conclusion of the Scouring. The Indomitus Crusade itself is an example of a crusade that ends while the battles and wars that made it up were still being fought.

 

As for the 2nd Founding's place in the Scouring, it's important to note that the 2nd Founding was not a singular event but a series of events. The Ultramarines being broken down into Chapters does not mean that the 2nd Founding had already concluded, as the Ultramarines were merely the first legion to break itself down. Lexicanum cites it as seven years after the Heresy, ad that may be a valid date for the start of the Ultramarines Legion being broken down. But even those legions that agreed with the Codex could not have begun to be broken down as quickly, and we know that the Imperial Fists, for one, resisted the change. Any battle fought by Ultramarine successors, without any specific dates provided, could very well be while other legions remained whole.

[Ascanius]

Certainly it seems that the Imperial Fists did not break up until after the Iron Cage - several sources agree on that, though not on whether it was into three or five chapters initially. Certainly we know the Black Templars and Crimson Fists were part of the Second Founding, but were others?

[Ogun]

 

It's not cited directly on Rogal Dorn's page, but Lexicanum does say Dorn's death occurred in ~034.M31 during a Black Crusade launched by an unknown foe, which would mean he did die or disappear during the Great Scouring - but the citation is to Index Astartes II (2003), so it probably isn't considered current anymore.

 

The IA article actually just says "soon after the disappearance of Corax," and doesn't give a specific date. In the Raven Guard article, Corax disappears after spending a year of isolation in the Ravenspire, after "the break-up of the legions and re-establishment of Imperial rule to the galaxy."

 

 

Lexicanum is a wonderful community resource, but some of its editors can be less than accurate, this being a case in point. 

 

 

According to Laurie Goulding's 'Aegiden Oath' short, Dorn is still around at the Third Founding. Oberdeii refers to Guilliman standing on 'that exact spot over nine centuries ago'. Dorn started the process of the Third Founding 40 years prior to the foundation of the Scythes of the Emperor and is implied to be still alive.

It also mentions that the Second Founding occurred approximately 100 years before Guilliman's wounding, and the successors were still not up to full strength by then.

 

So:

015.M31: Scouring begins

c.021. M31: Second Founding commences for the Ultramarines

- The Codex Crisis

121.M31: Battle of Thessala

???. M31: The Destruction of Tsargualsa by the Primogenitors

781.M31: First Black Crusade - Death of Sigismund

900s.M31: Third Founding 

 

 

Certainly it seems that the Imperial Fists did not break up until after the Iron Cage - several sources agree on that, though not on whether it was into three or five chapters initially. Certainly we know the Black Templars and Crimson Fists were part of the Second Founding, but were others?

 

I recommend reading The Beast Arises (a flawed project, but with some intriguing bits to it)!  According to that, the VII were split far more than three ways.

The confirmed Second Founding were:

Imperial Fists

Black Templars

Crimson Fists

Excoriators

Soul Drinkers

Fists Exemplar

Iron Knights (probable but less explicit)

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

Mark: 219,479.25.03

This is the time given in Know No Fear that started at the Battle of Calth and ended when Ventanus plants the Standard on a very dead Colchis.

Hope this helps.

[Ogun]

Mark: 219,479.25.03

This is the time given in Know No Fear that started at the Battle of Calth and ended when Ventanus plants the Standard on a very dead Colchis.

Hope this helps.

 

That would be about 25 years after Calth, so sometime during 032.M31.

[Ascanius]

I have noticed myself that Lexicanum is often not as up to date as it could be. I guess Lorgar: Bearer of the Word hasn't been out that long, but I was surprised that Kor Phaeron's page hasn't been updated with any information from it.

 

(I would have myself, but I was on my phone then and at work now . . .)

[drooling blood]

Its best not to think about cronology to much.

Outcast dead, Russ pulling a Alpharius, by meeting Khan, and being KO'd and needing Corax for the rescue.