Ultramarines Preheresy Organization

[Kinstryfe]

I'm not sure if this has been outlined anywhere, but I figured you guys would know if anyone does.

Preheresy, is there any info on how the Legion was broken down? They had 250k± Marines, and I know they were broken down into Chapter and Company formations, but do we know how many Marines were in each? Also, would they be designated as, say, 173rd Company, or would they be 17th Chapter, 3rd company?

I'm working on backstory for my just-post heresy Ultras, shortly before the 2nd founding, and have been wondering what type of breakdown is more correct.

[Jareddm]

Off the top of my head, they were broken down into 25 chapters of 10,000 marines each, with each chapter having 10 companies of 1,000 marines each.  Company numbers just continued on from one chapter to the next, so your example would be the 173rd company.

[Morovir]

Which chapter were the companies 1-9 in?

[Ramell]

Which chapter were the companies 1-9 in?

I think those were 1st Chapter, which would have to be double-strength for the organization to make sense. But I'm not sure this is specified anywhere.

[Ascanius]

Company numbers just continued on from one chapter to the next, so your example would be the 173rd company.

 

Yep. Roboute Guilliman: Lord of Ultramar is explicit that the 221st, 222nd, and 223rd Companies are the first, second, and third companies of that chapter.

[Kinstryfe]

Awesome, thanks all

[Nuttyer1st]

I feel the 250,000 number that is always stated in sources is a bit misleading, in HH:Tempest it states 24th and 25th chapters are double strength and made up of new recruits and veterans.

 

And since the chapter company numbering convention is in the form of 2nd chapter, 20-29th companies. The it leads to the question is 1st chapter just made up of 1st-9th companies or 1-19th which would make it double strength as well

 

The 250,00 number also doesn't take into account the Invictarii veterans who are separately organised (their organisation is not stated) and numbered several thousand, so your background could take them into account

[Marshal Rohr]

Are you trying to say there were more than 250,000 Ultramarines? An already extraordinarily high number?

[Kinstryfe]

My background, in a nutshell (which I hope hasn't been countered by official sources already, but is just asking for it to happen since it involves an existing GW chapter), is for my Ultras "first company" to be the proto-chapter that ends up as the Praetors of Orpheus. I've been using the placeholder 173rd Company writing it up, which could be valid unless it's already in use, though I'm torn on whether to go with 171st for a "true first company" feel, or if I like the idea of effectively a third company "If you think we've got fancy toys, you should see the real elites" theme. Though given that Preheresy companies are 1000 strong, I feel like there would be another unit of measurement for smaller engagements, my army effectively being 173rd Company, but also being 17th Chapter 3rd Company 1st Division. There's also the question of command structure. My Chapter Master oversees 10,000 Astartes, Company Captains oversee 1,000 Astartes and I feel there has to be an added level of command equivalent to the 40k era Captain over 100. Looking at British Navy ranks (the closest I could figure would have been intended for Marines in British fiction), I'd figure that's likely a Commander, with 2 Lieutenants making sense if the current 40k fluff is anything to go by.

So I guess a Preheresy Chapter would be 10,000 line Astartes, 1 Chapter Master, 10 Company Captains, likely 100 Commanders, and 200 Lieutenants. That's a lot of superhumans.

[Marshal Rohr]

There are multiple captains within a single Ultramarines company.

[Kinstryfe]

There are multiple captains within a single Ultramarines company.

Interesting. I figured there had to be some extra officers somewhere. That's an excuse to paint up some more random officers though :)

[Grim Dog Studios]

This is only head-canon but I've always thought of the Ultramarines composition to look something like:

Twenty Five 10,000 Marine Chapters > Ten 1000 Marine Companies Per Chapter > Ten 100 Marine Sub-Companies Per Company

With each Company having an overall Company Captain i.e. Remus Ventanus is 4th Company Captain, and then 10 Lesser Captains such as Sydance who is also a 4th Company Captain in Know No Fear but seems to follow Ventanus' Orders. Thinking about it this way is very reminiscent of how the Roman Army was, each Sub-Company being similar to a 100 Man Centuria lead by a Centurion. Which of course, is very "Ultramarine-y".

 

Of course, thats only my head-fluff but it might give you something to work from!

Edited October 23, 2017 by Centurion Jay

[Kinstryfe]

∆ that's pretty much what I figured has to be the case. Whether they're lesser Captains, line-Captains, commanders, or (I really like) Centuriona, there's gotta be something there. Both because of the difficult of the chain of command going from Captain -> a billion squad leaders, and because there has to be someone who can take charge in engagements where less than 1000 Astartes are present. It also (in my mind) makes sense of Saul Tarvitz (I know, different Legion) being a Line Captain, but relatively looked down upon if "Captain" has several sub ranks.

 

Man, the mental efforts we'll go thru to avoid having to buy and paint a full company of 1000 Marines...

[bluntblade]

 

There are multiple captains within a single Ultramarines company.

Interesting. I figured there had to be some extra officers somewhere. That's an excuse to paint up some more random officers though :)

Might depend on the size and makeup of the company. The SoH 1st has Ekaddon and Kibre under Abaddon

[Icarus1138]

I always imagined that a Captain led a company of 1,000 marines, with that broken down into ten units of 100, each led by a Centurion. This fits in well with the codex-compliant downsizing of a Chapter to the size of a company and a company to the size of a century. It also fits in with the common XIIIth usage of base 10 in deciding unit composition.