Articulate your reasons for not liking certain legions

[totgeboren]

 

Word Bearers? Where were their scars of injustice? Just one world chatised and they all go traitor. sorry, I guess I'm not being very articulate about it, but something just tells me that the Word Bearers excuse for going traitor was lame.

 

To be fair, Mortarion's reason for going traitor was lame as well due to his hatred of psykers, never mind that all the Primarchs are made of warp stuff. But at least he wasn't whiny about it unlike Lorgar.

 

 

Perhaps due to traits in my own personality, I can totally follow the line of reasoning in the WB story. For me, what is true matters, and it matters even if people might be upset by the truth. Or, to be more precise, the truth of reality isn't dependent on mine or anyone elses feelings.

 

40k is a universe where the gods are real, and they are cruel.

 

If we flip that and apply to the real world, and a father figure said to me: "This here book detailing the creation of the world and everything in it by God is true, and that's the end of that. I say it is true and therefor it is true. If you argue against me I'll kill you. Also, everything you have done so far is pointless, since if you don't honor my God while doing it, it's blasphemy."

 

This would not convert me. I'm sort of fundamentally stuck in my atheist world-view. I would likely just hide my lack of faith and bide my time to show the world the truth with overwhelming evidence later on.

 

Just like Lorgar did. Since in the 40k universe, the Imperial Truth is flat out false, and that should matter to at least some of the more rational characters within the setting.

 

About the topic at hand;

Salamanders: still rather flat, even if they have gotten some exposure in novels. It's probably difficult to portray them in an interesting way. They often just come across as naive or deluded. I mean, even Vulcan just felt irrational in The Beast Arises series. Being compassionate in the 40k setting is by default a hopeless position. Also, a bit too much firefirefire, they need to have more of a theme than that.

 

White Scars: I had no interest in these guys whatsoever until I read Scars. It really gave them a proper sense of personality, and also explained why they, who should by all accounts have sided with the Warmaster, did not.

 

Dark Angels: These have been really swingy for me. I really liked them when it was hinted that perhaps the loyalists were actually the traitors during the heresy, and that is why they spend so much time hunting the Fallen. They needed to make sure coverup was secure, otherwise The Lion would be cast in eternal dishonour, which would be a huge issiue since they are expecting him to return!

The 'shame' of having brothers who fell makes no sense currently, since just about every legion had warriors on either side during the HH. I mean, currently, UM ancestry is probably the most common for CSM in the Maelstrom, yet we don't see the UM throwing a hissy fit over that, going so far as killing other Imperials just to hide that fact.

Now that they are clearly stated as being simply irrational loyalists, they lost most of their appeal to me.

 

Ultramarines: They have so much written for them that some stories does make them look rather cool. A lot has been rather flat though. Really dislike their latest development. Having Super-Rational-Warrior-Jesus leading the Imperium, which is after all Theocratic-Feudal-Fascist-Space-Nazis is just a bit much of a clash to me.

Would much rather that he, after waking up and seeing the state of the Imperium, said: "Screw it, Imperium Secundus it is!" and having a new faction, the Imperium and the Ultramar Empire.

 

Black Legion: Also going from zero to hero with the A D-B Black Legion novels. I used to think they had no character, but now they are one of my favorite legions.

 

Space Wolves: I like vikings. I like vikings in space. I don't really like wolves, especially on t-shirts! Wolf t-shirts and wolf tattoos are really lame imo. The SW went from cool vikings-in-space, to wolf t-shirts. They had some story and depths, but GW took an iron to them and made them as flat as possible. Also, being lead by Space Marine Santa? *cries*

Edited January 25, 2018 by totgeboren

[bluntblade]

It's often overlooked that the WB buy into the notion that they can't simply go against the Ruinous Powers. The Fall of the Eldar is used to trick them further into that.

 

Tbf, Mortarion's arc has been explored, just mostly in other Legions' books. Which is to say some fantastic portrayals by Chris Wraight, and then one by Graham McNeil in between which seems to miss all the memos.

[Hellrender]

In regards to tjose chaos legions we should also consider that primarchs are not humans. They do not feel like us, they do not think like us.

 

When reading about monarchia, to me its a far from my bed show. I do not care about zealotry, religion, and word bearers. So seeing a devout world go poof doesnt mean anything for me.

 

Now imagine thay i have build that world, i made sure every citizen and aspect of its society is based on the devout worship to the emperor because i believe that to be the one true truth. Not only did i build this world to be the ideal image of jow imperial society should view my father.. I have build many more worlds like it.

 

In addition, my belief is so strong, so passionate, that all of my sons belief it too.

 

All in honour, nay worship, of my father, a god of mankind.

 

Then, my brother comes. An equal to me. Its the kind of older brother that has accomplished everything. The brother thay gets all the praise. Even though i have build entire systems that worship my father, that brother understands the needs of my father better and works to accomplish those. That brother knows it.. And we all know, wether it is actually the case or not, it always feels like that brother is then so smug about it. That he gets all the praise and not me. Even though i feel i am much more right, i never get the praise.

 

Well that brother then comes down hives me an ultimatum without passion. Like he doesnt care.

 

Ofcourse i am going to disagree. Dont forget that i am one of the most passionate beings out there. I feel much more intensely than any mortal. My belief is ironclad.

 

Then in the middle of that dispute, the father i worship, for whom i have devoted all my deeds, my lifes work, my self being. Everything. He comes and basicly tells me to shut up, my brother is right and i should be more like him. And he uses psychic force to do so.

 

That is such a hammerblow to such a passionate and zealous group of beings that arent mortal. Such a hammerblow to a being that is as far from mankind as an elephant to an ant.

 

Even though i personally do not care for zealotry, religion or the word bearer, having a message delivered that is so anathema to my being, so counter tonmy lifeswork.. That would devastate me.

 

still i disline the word bearers because they are religious zealots that dont think facts and discuss. They presume the truth and dont seek to reason but to convert. For thay i am happy they are there. Provides good enemies to shoot and slay.

 

Further on the topic.. I dislike no other legion per se. Not even the word bearers. I think that because of ADB i understand the word bearers better. But just as easily do i dislike blood angels, dark angels and raven guard because of authors not portraying them as i wanted.

 

I love the space wolves. But thatbis because the viking iconography, fur and colour scheme just tickles me the right way. However gw has been overdoing just a select few themds and ruining them a bit. And then i read books like leman russ and like them better again.

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ totbergen - Strangely enough, I'm also waiting for the world to realise the truth, except my viewpoint kinda opposite, that of a Christian. Moving away from our personal beliefs, you are correct in pointing out that the Word Bearer's obsession with faith is arguably closer to the "truth" of the 40K universe than the Imperial Truth. Although I argue that the Imperial Truth did have some truth in the sense that there were no gods and demons, at least in the creationist aspect of the gods and demons. that the Emperor promptly stomped on them 

 

Obviously semantics is less important than substance, and the fact is the Warp and its denizens do have powers which are easily classified as godlike and for all appearances and intent are demons as well, so telling the galaxy that such creatures don't exist outright is still stupid, when even your most loyal dog Russ know it isn't true, yet you don't chatise the uncivilized dog but you chatise the (up to that point) loyal son.

 

@ Hellrander - I disagree that the primarchs are not human. If they were not human and were all loyal automatons like the Emperor wanted to them to be, then the Heresy wouldn't have happen due to the many, Many, MANY, MAAAAAANNNY flaws they exhibited, all of which can be classified in the human range, whether it is jealousy, pride, stubborn, rage etc.

 

That being said, I pity and sort of understand Lorgar too but still doesn't boot him off near the top of the list of my most hated primarch/legion. He had plenty of opportunity to get help and sort out his worldview apart from taking a trip to the eye of terror. He didn't. Even Magnus tried to warn him to stop looking for something that isn't there (ironically) but he refused to listen even to Magnus. then again, Magnus once again displayed his know it all attitude that pushed off Lorgar.

 

One thing I noticed in the discussion, it seems that our "hatred" or "dislike" of the legions is inevitably tied to the primarch. I tried to separate the primarch from the legion in my points but one thing for certain, they cannot be mutually exclusive in our analysis. Because no matter what, the legion thinking and ways of war will always tie to the primarchs. Even the Dark Angels who are arguably most disconnected with their Primarch, still follow his template of mood and war tactics.

 

Interesting to say the least.

[Hellrender]

Oh, but i am not saying that they are automatons. :P 

 

I am saying that they are not human. They are something much different. Their brain functions on a speed and level that our brains will never reach. Their bodies can do things that we will never be able to copy. That will do something with how you see the world, with how you view yourself and those around you. 

 

The flaws they possess are, because of that, also very exaggerated. That is exactly why the word bearers felt monarchia so severe, compared to how i would have felt. (that was sort of the point i was trying to make in my previous post). 

 

And that is also why some BL books completely miss the point for me. Where they have way to much insight in the thinking and feeling of a primarch. Because that is bull****. We can't comprehend a being so far beyond us, just like a wasp will not understand our capacity for love, hate, violence, mercy, etc. Books like Master of Mankind are awesome because they keep those beings at a distance. Even though it is often written from the perspective of a Custodes, i still feel distant from how that Custode feels.

 

The Night Lords series is awesome, because i understand how Septimus feels, but Talos, altough he is bad ass, i find hard to sympatise with. (yes, i am an ADB fanboy :P)

[Kasper_Hawser]

Oh, but i am not saying that they are automatons.

 

I am saying that they are not human. They are something much different. Their brain functions on a speed and level that our brains will never reach. Their bodies can do things that we will never be able to copy. That will do something with how you see the world, with how you view yourself and those around you. 

 

The flaws they possess are, because of that, also very exaggerated. That is exactly why the word bearers felt monarchia so severe, compared to how i would have felt. (that was sort of the point i was trying to make in my previous post). 

 

And that is also why some BL books completely miss the point for me. Where they have way to much insight in the thinking and feeling of a primarch. Because that is bull****. We can't comprehend a being so far beyond us, just like a wasp will not understand our capacity for love, hate, violence, mercy, etc. Books like Master of Mankind are awesome because they keep those beings at a distance. Even though it is often written from the perspective of a Custodes, i still feel distant from how that Custode feels.

 

The Night Lords series is awesome, because i understand how Septimus feels, but Talos, altough he is bad ass, i find hard to sympatise with. (yes, i am an ADB fanboy )

 

I guess you are right, although I think ADB REALLY shouldn't have done the whole inhuman or so far from humanity aspect of the Emperor, Custodes and Primarchs. Because once they cease to bear any resemblance to humanity, we really stop giving a damn about their story. Because we lose the connection that makes us care about the characters, and the only way the connection can happen is if we, well, connect through our humanity.

 

Because if this is the case, then the Emperor REALLY does not have the right to rule humanity, super human sorceror or not, if he fails to understand even the most basic thing like family. Even if he foresees humanity's future to be worse without him, because frankly, he ISN'T RIGHT all the time, yet he does untold questionable things to his subjects, which is humanity.

 

LOL, now I sound like a traitor legion sympathiser. But no, in the end, I believe the Primarchs and their sons are ultimately human in spirit. Even if they were formerly just implanted personality aspects of the emperor, by virtue of the 200 years of their experience, they have their own souls and free will and base on the Horus Heresy novels so far, in the end, not that far from us.

[Leif Bearclaw]

@ totbergen - Strangely enough, I'm also waiting for the world to realise the truth, except my viewpoint kinda opposite, that of a Christian. Moving away from our personal beliefs, you are correct in pointing out that the Word Bearer's obsession with faith is arguably closer to the "truth" of the 40K universe than the Imperial Truth. Although I argue that the Imperial Truth did have some truth in the sense that there were no gods and demons, at least in the creationist aspect of the gods and demons. that the Emperor promptly stomped on them 

 

Obviously semantics is less important than substance, and the fact is the Warp and its denizens do have powers which are easily classified as godlike and for all appearances and intent are demons as well, so telling the galaxy that such creatures don't exist outright is still stupid, when even your most loyal dog Russ know it isn't true, yet you don't chatise the uncivilized dog but you chatise the (up to that point) loyal son.

 

 

This relates to another issue I have with the WBs. How did they get so bad in the first place? Seriously, as a borderline Chaos-tainted shrine world, how did Colchis escape notice by the Emperor and co? The entire premise of the WBs doesn't really work imo in the new 'Imperial Truth' Heresy fluff. Especially as the old excuse 'the Emperor was bad at noticing his son's issues/let them get away with too much' really doesn't work with them pushing the 'Primarchs were only tools, Empy was even more sociopathic than we thought' line in recent work. Colchis was the complete antithesis of the Great Crusade, but it gets a pass because 'oh look, a Primarch'?

 

Tbh, I just find the WB progression weird. From the firemen book burners to 'the boss, who told us he isn't a God, and built a society around hardline atheism, is really a God' to 'oh look, powerful creatures from another dimension, they must be Gods, let's do everything they say, regardless of how obviously evil it is'. Though this admittedly runs into some philosophical 'what measure of a God' type stuff, the point where they found out their blood magics work better with added suffering should've been a clue they were on the wrong side. It just doesn't resonate, at all, with me and seems hackneyed and contrived.

 

 

I guess you are right, although I think ADB REALLY shouldn't have done the whole inhuman or so far from humanity aspect of the Emperor, Custodes and Primarchs. Because once they cease to bear any resemblance to humanity, we really stop giving a damn about their story. Because we lose the connection that makes us care about the characters, and the only way the connection can happen is if we, well, connect through our humanity.

 

Because if this is the case, then the Emperor REALLY does not have the right to rule humanity, super human sorceror or not, if he fails to understand even the most basic thing like family. Even if he foresees humanity's future to be worse without him, because frankly, he ISN'T RIGHT all the time, yet he does untold questionable things to his subjects, which is humanity.

 

LOL, now I sound like a traitor legion sympathiser. But no, in the end, I believe the Primarchs and their sons are ultimately human in spirit. Even if they were formerly just implanted personality aspects of the emperor, by virtue of the 200 years of their experience, they have their own souls and free will and base on the Horus Heresy novels so far, in the end, not that far from us.

 

I'd like to disagree, but BL really seem to be pushing a 'Horus was right' angle in their recent works, from what I've seen.

 

Presentation of the Emperor has always been an issue, because he has to make certain, stupid, decisions otherwise the prequel story doesn't work. But they've shown too much, without giving a good explanation for most of the idiocy. In fact, they've made it worse in places, as you could explain away some of the Emperor's mistakes with 'human frailties' or 'paternal affection' before, but that's increasingly a failed excuse.

[SickSix]

Space Wolves. While not as bad in 30k, they are still over the top.

 

GW went far too heavy on the wolf aspect and not enough Viking. I mean my god, how cartoonish can you take it? Their 40k incarnation is straight up laughable.

 

It also doesn't help when the voice actor and dialouge written for them in Crimson King is just, bad.

 

Uhg, Fenris should have been destroyed during Wrath of Magnus. Everyone would have been better off.

[totgeboren]

 

 

 

This relates to another issue I have with the WBs. How did they get so bad in the first place? Seriously, as a borderline Chaos-tainted shrine world, how did Colchis escape notice by the Emperor and co? The entire premise of the WBs doesn't really work imo in the new 'Imperial Truth' Heresy fluff. Especially as the old excuse 'the Emperor was bad at noticing his son's issues/let them get away with too much' really doesn't work with them pushing the 'Primarchs were only tools, Empy was even more sociopathic than we thought' line in recent work. Colchis was the complete antithesis of the Great Crusade, but it gets a pass because 'oh look, a Primarch'?

 

Tbh, I just find the WB progression weird. From the firemen book burners to 'the boss, who told us he isn't a God, and built a society around hardline atheism, is really a God' to 'oh look, powerful creatures from another dimension, they must be Gods, let's do everything they say, regardless of how obviously evil it is'. Though this admittedly runs into some philosophical 'what measure of a God' type stuff, the point where they found out their blood magics work better with added suffering should've been a clue they were on the wrong side. It just doesn't resonate, at all, with me and seems hackneyed and contrived.

 

When the Emp came to Colchis, Lorgar had converted the entire population of the world to his new Empy-is-the-Best creed. I do think the Emperor gave them a pass precisely because it was the work of one of his sons (who had by all accords wiped out the dominating chaos cult from the world. Horray), he came to Colchis relatively close to the culmination of that world-engulfing war, and he probably figured that since Lorgar was so extremely loyal and obviously had no problem killing chaos worshippers by the millions, he would have little trouble tweaking him to function just like he wanted to.

 

The Imperial Heralds were also used for actions that required soldiers that were quite happy to not question. Sending some Thousand Sons to burn down libraries and wipe out cultures would just have been dumb, even for the Emperor. Each legion had different character traits that could be put to use for different tasks, and that is what the Emperor did.

 

After finding Lorgar, it should have come as no surprise that he behaved quite like his sons, and I don't think the Emperor would have had any issue with that in isolation. The big problem was probably that Lorgar hadn't been well taught in strategy and how to be a general. But since the Emperor knew this, he probably treated the slow progress of Lorgar with patience, assuming it was due to him still learning the finer arts of war.

 

But eventually he had enough, sent some agents to give him some more thorough analysis of why Lorgar was so tardy, and found out that it was due to having his legion erect cathedrals and such to him.

 

And the thing with the WB wasn't that they met a daemon and figured they must obey without question. The problem was that they has butchered half their home-world, and several other worlds that shared basically the same believes as those of the dead population of Colchis, and that slaughter was due to the "truth" laid down by the Emperor.

 

When they found evidence that supported the old faith, and proving that the word of the Emperor was factually false, they made the mistake of assuming that the old faith was close to the truth. This of course through the manipulations of daemons. And as the warp corrupts, you only need to fall a little to eventually fall completely.

 

Lorgar understandably wanted to reveal to the universe that the Emperor had lied to them, that he had put hundreds of worlds to the sword, not even for the truth, but for the power aspirations of the Emperor. But he could not do this without having him and his sons be destroyed. Handily enough, the Gods offered to help him, and the rest is history.

 

I mean, to compare with reality. If someone had objective and irrefutable proof that there was a heaven and afterlife, but withheld that from the general public, I would be furious. It would probably be one of the most immoral things I could imagine.

If this life is just a 'test', or a 'game' where you try to score enough points to get into an eternal heaven, withholding the truth of heaven would doom millions to an eternity of hell/oblivion, because they would lack the relevant facts to make rational choices with their lifes.

Really, nothing we do in life would have any meaning except as a means of getting to an eternity of bliss, because eternity is eternity.

 

Basically, that is what happened to Lorgar. He found out that he had slain millions based on deceit by the Emperor, and he was pissed because of it. He and the WB didn't simply obey deamons, they acted on their own accord. The daemons were more than willing to help, carefully nudging them along the path of damnation.

[Gorgoff]

There is a reason why the Emperor treated half of his sons that badly... just read the new book about Malcador. ;)