Articulate your reasons for not liking certain legions

[Semper Fortis]

I just can't bring myself to like the traitor legions. They are, after all, the bad guys.

 

Of the loyalist legions, there are three I dislike: Ultramarines, Blood Angels, and Wolves. They were the enemy back in the day as we had a severe shortage of xenos armies at my shop. How can you like a uniform that you spent countless hours disparaging to your little plastic Dark Angels as you painted them? (Yes, I talk to my minis.)

 

The Imperial Fists are my favorite legion. Their stoicism and devotion to duty most closely align with my own personality.

 

 

Edited because auto-correct foolishness.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Semper Fortis

[b1soul]

I've found the Chaotic EC either underwhelming or superb, without much in-between. PoH now has me keen to read Primogenitor

The character of Cario struck me as brilliant.

 

Arrogance, nostalgia, denial, nobility...all present in one character. Lucius is one of the most annoying, one dimensionally written villains IMO. Cario is such a more interesting character.

[Jareddm]

I would say there's something I like about every single legion, so I'm going to word the premise a little differently.

 

Instead of which ones I dislike, it'll be which ones I like their 40k presentation better than their 30k presentation.

 

Death Guard - This is most likely due to some rather lovely lore in the new Death Guard codex.  Pre-heresy, I fully understand the whole "endless attrition" and focus on the individual soldier is a big attraction, as well as their use of toxic weaponry.  But to me I felt like the legion never really got enough focus in their favored environments, at least to a degree that differentiates them from the Destroyers of other legions.  Flight of the Eisenstein didn't do nearly enough for me and while their other shorts have been fun, their latest 40k presentation really hit home for me.  They felt distinctly unique in Nurgle's embrace, while adding on a feeling of innovation and legion-wide drive that I felt was never really present.  While I feel Mortarion has gotten some solid fleshing out, I just don't feel his legion has been given the same treatment.

 

Imperial Fists -  Now I haven't read Praetorian of Dorn yet, so maybe this'll change, but I feel post-Heresy, they've built up such an interesting set of schisms and opposing beliefs, and even though I wasn't blown away by TBA series, it, along with Legion of the Damned and Helsreach have kept my attention on Dorn's lineage more than even their lore in HH3: Extermination.  It's weird for me because despite having such a diverse collection of successors, pre-Heresy they feel like one of the most uniform legions.  I feel like we never get to see the "oddballs" of the VIth legion like we've gotten to see with others.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Jareddm

[Dantay VI]

I do not really dislike any legion.

 

The ones I struggle to identify with are the Emperors Children, Word Bearers to some extent Night Lords, Salamanders and Iron Hands

Edited October 21, 2017 by Wolf_Priest _Dantay.

[bluntblade]

 

I've found the Chaotic EC either underwhelming or superb, without much in-between. PoH now has me keen to read Primogenitor

The character of Cario struck me as brilliant.

Arrogance, nostalgia, denial, nobility...all present in one character. Lucius is one of the most annoying, one dimensionally written villains IMO. Cario is such a more interesting character.

Not to mention the new-look Eidolon.

[Kinstryfe]

I would say there's something I like about every single legion, so I'm going to word the premise a little differently.

 

Instead of which ones I dislike, it'll be which ones I like their 40k presentation better than their 30k presentation.

 

Imperial Fists -  Now I haven't read Praetorian of Dorn yet, so maybe this'll change, but I feel post-Heresy, they've built up such an interesting set of schisms and opposing beliefs, and even though I wasn't blown away by TBA series, it, along with Legion of the Damned and Helsreach have kept my attention on Dorn's lineage more than even their lore in HH3: Extermination.  It's weird for me because despite having such a diverse collection of successors, pre-Heresy they feel like one of the most uniform legions.  I feel like we never get to see the "oddballs" of the VIth legion like we've gotten to see with others.

The fists, to me, struggle with identity. On the one hand they're portrayed as masters of defense, but on the other they're played us as zealous crusaders for the Imperium. It's even played up (likely unintentionally) in their HQ, a giant mobile space fortress. They have a sort of identity crisis which I just find kind of confusing, like they don't know what they want to be. I'd even argue this continues into 40k, having two wildly different armies. There's even some debate to be had on who are the actual first founding chapter, given some of the events revealed in books. As much as I've tried (and I've even painted a couple squads), I just can't get on the Fists bandwagon.

[FuriousFerret]

Iron Hands.

 

30k: we're angry guys in black armour. Our Primarch died in five minutes flat while really angry.

 

40k: we're angry amputee-fetish freaks in black armour. Our Primarch died 10,000 yesrs ago while angry, and we're angry about that, except when we're angry at ourselves for having organic organs or limbs.

 

Edit: I mean, the WE outdo them in the anger department; the Sallies rival them on craftmanship and clannishness; the IW rival them on craftmanship, bitterness, and bionics; the DA and the RG wear black, too, as do some SoH.

 

What is left that is uniquely IH ??

Edited October 21, 2017 by FuriousFerret

[bluntblade]

Have you tried Wraight and French's work on them?

[Chapter Master Valrak]

Iron Warriors: Waaaa we cannot build roads, waaaaa :P

 

I am not an Imperial Fist...

[b1soul]

The DA already have the knightly space knights thing

 

Would like it if an authour emphasises Inwitian culture

[b1soul]

Complete and utter nonsense. Every other piece of generic heresy drek has Ultramarines on it, right down to box art and character focus- though they don't really have any actual characters beyond Thiel worth a damn which makes it 'Guest Starring Generic Ultra ##234234', while Space Wolves got, what, half of a novel duology about them in particular and starring in a board game...and every other appearance before and since has them being dragged through the mud and losing- in other words, actual consequences for their flaws and the situation of the Heresy instead of the plot bending over backwards to insulate them from their failings.

 

Show me the Ultramarines suffering a Wolf Cull or the mauling by the Alpha Legion that they needed to be rescued from- and then you can talk. And if you say Calth, I'm going to actually laugh given what an unabashed :cuss  that turned into.

 

Angron and Lorgar are failing to kill Guilliman before the ascension.

Kor Phaeron the half-Astartes single-handedly incapacitates Guilliman and has him at his mercy

 

Yeah...I don't think I'm the one cherry-picking

[Dantay VI]

 

Complete and utter nonsense. Every other piece of generic heresy drek has Ultramarines on it, right down to box art and character focus- though they don't really have any actual characters beyond Thiel worth a damn which makes it 'Guest Starring Generic Ultra ##234234', while Space Wolves got, what, half of a novel duology about them in particular and starring in a board game...and every other appearance before and since has them being dragged through the mud and losing- in other words, actual consequences for their flaws and the situation of the Heresy instead of the plot bending over backwards to insulate them from their failings.

 

Show me the Ultramarines suffering a Wolf Cull or the mauling by the Alpha Legion that they needed to be rescued from- and then you can talk. And if you say Calth, I'm going to actually laugh given what an unabashed   that turned into.

 

Angron and Lorgar are failing to kill Guilliman before the ascension.

Kor Phaeron the half-Astartes single-handedly incapacitates Guilliman and has him at his mercy

 

Yeah...I don't think I'm the one cherry-picking

 

 

So how did he not manage to finish off Guillemann if at his mercy & incapacitated?

 

Genuinely cant remember as it is ages since I read the book.

[b1soul]

Kor Phaeron gave a Bond villain speech as he tauntingly cut the skin on Guilliman's throat Edited October 22, 2017 by b1soul

[Ascanius]

He tried to convert him to the service of Chaos rather than delivering the killing blow.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Wasnt Kor Phaeron enhanced by the Chaos powers at this point?

[Ishagu]

Guys, that Kor Phaeron moment where he overpowered Guilliman needs context. Everyone says it shows Guilliman is weak, and if you think so it means you haven't understood the situation in the slightest.

 

The Word Bearers performed a planet wide ritual based around the betrayal of friends and brothers. This ritual weakened the boundaries between the material world and the warp. When Guilliman attacked Kor Phaeron, the word bearer was empowered greatly by Chaos and had warp abilities far in excess of what he'd normally have.

 

Guilliman is strong but he's not as powerful as the Warp!

Please grow up and look at the context.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Ishagu

[b1soul]

I'm not saying "Guilliman is a weak little sissy boy", but it's definitely not a strong showing. It's one of the few times a mortal (Kor Phaeron is essentially just a somewhat augmented old man) completely dominates a primarch. Could you imagine the uproar if Russ were laid low by Kor Phaeron? In contrast, Russ was butchering Warp-empoweres TSons left and right.

[Ishagu]

You really have 0 idea what you're talking about.

The powers of the Warp dominated Guilliman. Kor Phaeron merely channeled them.

I literally just explained that the book goes into great detail about how the Word Bearers performed a ritual that weakened the barriers between reality and the immaterium. During the Calth betrayal psykers were able to channel massive ammounts of Warp energy and Daemons could freely manifest without needing possession.

If a guy in a starship targets a planet for Exterminatus is the guy who pushes the button more powerful than everyone on the planet?

Edited October 22, 2017 by Ishagu

[Kizzdougs]

You really have 0 idea what you're talking about.

The powers of the Warp dominated Guilliman. Kor Phaeron merely channeled them.

If a guy in a starship targets a planet for Exterminatus is the guy who pushes the button more powerful than everyone on the planet?

I think you've missed the point... No one is saying that Guilliman is weak, b1soul was just using the Kor Phaeron example to show Ugolino that the Ultramarine's aren't as one dimensional as he seems to think they are... b1soul is defending the Ultramarines, not bashing them :P

[Ishagu]

The point is people reference that scene all the time without context and it gets pretty annoying.

 

I think Guilliman comes off well in that scene. After being smashed against a wall repeatedly by Warp energy he's still able to rip out Khor Phaeron's heart through the Terminator armour, just with his un-augmented strength.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Ishagu

[Ascanius]

Didn't finish the job, though. ;)

[b1soul]

@Kizzdougs

Thank you...

 

The scene shows that the UM and Robby G aren't always portrayed as special poster boys who never lose or get severely hurt. Kor Phaeron's nick on Guilliman's neck also sets up Fulgrim's 10,000 year KO blow later at Thessala

 

@Ishagu

It's arguable whether Kor Phaeron, a non-psyker sorcerer, is more powerful than TSon psyker sorcerers, who were also juiced to the ears with Warp power during the Razing of Prospero

Edited October 23, 2017 by b1soul

[librisrouge]

The Word Bearers...

 

What a one dimensional bunch of subpar intellects masquerading as wisdom in the package of total ponces. I detest them. They're the very worst of the religious minded, believing that you MUST worship something if just because its there to be worshiped. In many ways, I see myself in them. I'm fairly religious and take a measure of pride in it, enjoying the, if cursory at times, study of theology and philosophy, and rigorous debate with serious compatriots. However, if I were confronted with proof that no good god existed and that, in fact, only honor-less and evil dirties populated the warp, I'd find myself becoming the most militant anti-deist in such a way that would make Black Templars blush at my extremism. They're the moronically dark reflection of myself and I look forward to any opportunity to trounce them on the tabletop.

 

Also, Erebus is a jerk.

[Kizzdougs]

The Word Bearers...

 

What a one dimensional bunch of subpar intellects masquerading as wisdom in the package of total ponces. I detest them. They're the very worst of the religious minded, believing that you MUST worship something if just because its there to be worshiped. In many ways, I see myself in them. I'm fairly religious and take a measure of pride in it, enjoying the, if cursory at times, study of theology and philosophy, and rigorous debate with serious compatriots. However, if I were confronted with proof that no good god existed and that, in fact, only honor-less and evil dirties populated the warp, I'd find myself becoming the most militant anti-deist in such a way that would make Black Templars blush at my extremism. They're the moronically dark reflection of myself and I look forward to any opportunity to trounce them on the tabletop.

 

Also, Erebus is a jerk.

This is a commonly held opinion of the Word Bearers. Personally I see things a bit differently...

 

First of all, the Word Bearers' genetics, re-engineered by the Emperor, make them more susceptible to religious or doctrinal beliefs. They have a predisposition for fervour and fanaticism that we can't really understand or sympathise with. They don't have the same level of 'free will' as you or I. That is their tragedy.

 

I think their home world had a big influence as well. Colchis was the equivalent to an Ecclesiarchy world, but dedicated to the worship of Chaos Gods, before Lorgar arrived. To the people of Colchis the Chaos Gods weren't evil warp entities, they were just the natural order of things. They represented strength (Khorne), innovation/wisdom/ (Tzeentch), hope (Nurgle), and personal/artistic development/mastery (Slaanesh). When people turn to the worship of the Chaos Gods they usually do so based on good intentions, not to become the evil super villains of a fictional setting. That's the lure of Chaos. It seems innocent/pure enough on the outside, but once you're in there is no way out. Even in death you're damned...

 

Even after Lorgar had conquered the planet and replaced the worship of the Gods with the worship of the One (the Emperor), key figures such as Kor Phaeron (he was a Chaos priest when is found Lorgar) continued to nurture beliefs in the Chaos Gods. Characters such as Kor Phaeron and Erebus worked throughout the Great Crusade (even before Monarchia, when Lorgar was still loyal) to spread Chaos corruption on the worlds that they conquered and even throughout the other Legions via the Chaplain program and the Warrior Lodges. Chaos worship didn't just come out of nowhere for the Word Bearers when they were censored by the Emperor, it had always been present in the Legion. Kor Phaeron had been playing the long game. It was always his plan to turn Lorgar, the Legion, and humanity at large to the worship of the Dark Gods.

 

Also, don't forget that as outside readers we have a much better understanding of what the Chaos Gods represent, and are capable of, than the average character in 30k/40k. We know that Chaos worship is a bad idea, but the characters, especially in 30k, don't necessarily have the same level of understanding.

 

 

• Chaos worshipers don't see Chaos as 'evil'
• The Word Bearers are genetically predisposed to fanaticism and come from a home world that worshipped the Chaos Gods;
• and Chaos worship was always present in the Legion and had extremely powerful/influential backers (Kor Phaeron (First Captain) and Erebus (First Chaplain) et al). 

 

Edit: Personally I find the Word Bearers and Lorgar really interesting. I feel that they are one of the Legions that suffer the most from the internet meme treatment, much in the same way that people like to see 40k Abaddon as a failure or the Ultramarines as boring/vanilla 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Kizzdougs

[Lucerne]

 

Complete and utter nonsense. Every other piece of generic heresy drek has Ultramarines on it, right down to box art and character focus- though they don't really have any actual characters beyond Thiel worth a damn which makes it 'Guest Starring Generic Ultra ##234234', while Space Wolves got, what, half of a novel duology about them in particular and starring in a board game...and every other appearance before and since has them being dragged through the mud and losing- in other words, actual consequences for their flaws and the situation of the Heresy instead of the plot bending over backwards to insulate them from their failings.

 

Show me the Ultramarines suffering a Wolf Cull or the mauling by the Alpha Legion that they needed to be rescued from- and then you can talk. And if you say Calth, I'm going to actually laugh given what an unabashed   that turned into.

 

Angron and Lorgar are failing to kill Guilliman before the ascension.

Kor Phaeron the half-Astartes single-handedly incapacitates Guilliman and has him at his mercy

 

Yeah...I don't think I'm the one cherry-picking

 

You do realize Guiliman won that engagement- against THE chaos sorceror of the era- and encounter like every other absurd match-up they keep putting their invincible boring poster children into, right?

 

It's the equivalent of Horus shrugging off the Davin assassination with a minor scar just because he's such a perfect, special snowflake. Don't cite a situation where Guilliman should have straight up been killed off if they wanted to write that scene as somehow evidence of him being given anything but ridiculous plot armor and puffing up by the writers.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Ugolino