Articulate your reasons for not liking certain legions

[Ficinus]

The DA already have the knightly space knights thing

 

Would like it if an authour emphasises Inwitian culture

 

The DA do already have the "knightly space knights" thing, but the DA and the IF are different halves of the image of the knight.  The DA are the knight as the defender, the knight that slays the dragon and defends the people of the realm, while the IF are the knight as crusader, going out to fight and conquer for the faith (or Imperial Truth as it were).  And both of these end up being to the legion's detriment: the DA (or part of them) are so concerned with defending Caliban that they feel the need to defend it against the Imperium even to its destruction; Dorn so feels the need to strike out and crusade that he leads a large portion of his legion to death in Perturabo's Iron Cage.

 

Oh, and I don't like the Space Wolves.  The viking thing is kind of cool, but it just feels way, way, way too overdone.  They drink space mead, they have longships, they call the Emperor the All-Father or something: its too much and too much of a caricature.  It would need to be toned down to be at 11.  It would be like if the White Scars rode horses instead of bikes and shot compound bows instead of bolters (and at least the Scars have the whole artistic/philosopher thing, making them a more nuanced take on space Mongols than the Wolves as space Vikings).  When that's combined with the large fandom around the Wolves, it's just off-putting.  That said, the Wulven are kind of a neat thing to have as a flaw (though I think that too goes overboard with the whole "No wolves on Fenris" whatever and them riding wolves).

[Ficinus]

Wait, the Ultramarines are courageous and honorable?  I seem to remember Guilliman abandoning his Emperor to name himself Emperor.  I remember Guilliman abandoning his father at his moment of greatest desperation so that he could defend his own empire.  I remember Sanguinius and his Blood Angels fighting on Terra and the Vengeful Spirit to defend humanity and the Emperor against the Warp while Guilliman and his Ultramarines were nowhere to be found.

 

That is the Ultramarines flaw, and it fits perfectly.  It makes sense that they would be cautious and conservative in the midst of such uncertainty.  That the would tactically retreat and defend what they know they can defend instead of putting everything in jeopardy.  It's the logical, sound decision.  But they (arguably) could have turned the tide on Terra; they (arguably) could have prevented the death of the Emperor, and in that way they failed.

[Dantay VI]

 

 

The DA already have the knightly space knights thing

 

Would like it if an authour emphasises Inwitian culture

The DA do already have the "knightly space knights" thing, but the DA and the IF are different halves of the image of the knight. The DA are the knight as the defender, the knight that slays the dragon and defends the people of the realm, while the IF are the knight as crusader, going out to fight and conquer for the faith (or Imperial Truth as it were). And both of these end up being to the legion's detriment: the DA (or part of them) are so concerned with defending Caliban that they feel the need to defend it against the Imperium even to its destruction; Dorn so feels the need to strike out and crusade that he leads a large portion of his legion to death in Perturabo's Iron Cage.

 

Oh, and I don't like the Space Wolves. The viking thing is kind of cool, but it just feels way, way, way too overdone. They drink space mead, they have longships, they call the Emperor the All-Father or something: its too much and too much of a caricature. It would need to be toned down to be at 11. It would be like if the White Scars rode horses instead of bikes and shot compound bows instead of bolters (and at least the Scars have the whole artistic/philosopher thing, making them a more nuanced take on space Mongols than the Wolves as space Vikings). When that's combined with the large fandom around the Wolves, it's just off-putting. That said, the Wulven are kind of a neat thing to have as a flaw (though I think that too goes overboard with the whole "No wolves on Fenris" whatever and them riding wolves).

Yes the 40K wolves stuff is a bit overdone. I know those coming from a 40k perspective can be put off by it. However 30K wolves are a whole different animal in contrast.

 

Also feel you got your Knight stuff back to front.

 

By the Heresy the IF were the Emperors praetorian. Hey were the knightly defenders of the homeworld.

 

The DAs were the questing knights roaming the galaxy.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Wolf_Priest _Dantay.

[m0nolith]

Word Bearers. Their complete and unadulterated certainty in their belief doesn't sit well with me. 

Paradoxically, one of my top 3 favorite characters in the HH is Barthusa Narek, a Word Bearer Vigilator that still remains loyal to the Emperor.

Edited October 27, 2017 by m0nolith

[librisrouge]

Also, don't forget that as outside readers we have a much better understanding of what the Chaos Gods represent, and are capable of, than the average character in 30k/40k. We know that Chaos worship is a bad idea, but the characters, especially in 30k, don't necessarily have the same level of understanding.

 

• Chaos worshipers don't see Chaos as 'evil'

But they should and that is why I dislike the Word Bearers. You're looking at deities that, by their actions, are antithetical to mankind and our property. The creation of daemon worlds destroy every semblance of human civilization upon the planet and enslave any survivors that aren't extremely powerful or have ascended to daemonhood themselves. Daemons regularly show an amazingly blunt and casual disregard for human like. They favor tactics that any culture that espouses a system of honor would find extremely underhanded. Heck. Calth was powered by BETRAYAL! Most religions, and atheistic moral codes, can agree that there is a reason why treason is seen as bad. Chaos worshipers don't see it that way and, in my opinion, it makes them, their gods, and their beliefs foolish and evil.

• The Word Bearers are genetically predisposed to fanaticism and come from a home world that worshipped the Chaos Gods;

The problem here is, again, I'm struggling to see how the Word Bearers could see the worship of Chaos as a moral action? I don't think they do, honestly, and little that I've read makes me believe they worship Chaos for anything like wholesome reasons. They wan't power, have cultural momentum, or are inexplicably blind to the consequences of their actions, sure. The Imperium has a breathtaking lack of concern for fanaticism, yet the Word Bearers, hardly the most fanatical faction (cough*Templars*cough) decide to turn their devotion to something antithetical to mankind.

• and Chaos worship was always present in the Legion and had extremely powerful/influential backers (Kor Phaeron (First Captain) and Erebus (First Chaplain) et al). 

Which is why I don't blame Lorgar for worshiping Chaos; I blame him for being blind and foolishly allowing his friendship to turn him away from a course of moral action. He surrendered his moral sovereignty when he is confronted with clear evil (look at his experiences in First Heretic) and he doesn't even balk. The guy was already a slave, he merely needed a master and would accept any. This makes for a weak character in my opinion.

 

Edit: Personally I find the Word Bearers and Lorgar really interesting. I feel that they are one of the Legions that suffer the most from the internet meme treatment, much in the same way that people like to see 40k Abaddon as a failure or the Ultramarines as boring/vanilla 

 

Please allow me to make some counter arguments.

 

I suppose my problem boils down to the idea that Chaos seems clearly bad for mankind. Perhaps good for individuals who desire to ascend to daemonhood, but bad for literally anybody else and most of the former. I doubt any of the Word Bearer controlled planets would justifiably be called anything like a paradise or utopia. The vast majority, if not all, undoubtedly would be the opposite. Yet, with 10,000 years of this evidence that Chaos is bad and unworthy of worship, they don't care and worship away because ultimately, like a Night Lord or Black Legionary, they only ultimately believe in might making right and the 'gods' they purport to worship are just the means to some end.

Edited October 27, 2017 by librisrouge

[choppyred]

My take on the Word Bearers is that they found out that the"Imperial Truth" was a lie and that Gods did exist. Nasty horrible Gods for sure but Gods all the same, and they wanted to share this new truth with humanity.

[b1soul]

White Scars are really an amalgam of Central and East Asian cultures...whereas it seems the SW are very dominantly Viking

[Dagoth Ur]

Never been a fan of the Space Wolves personally. While I like their 30k aesthetic, I just haven't read anything about them that really gripped me or made them all that unique to me. The White Scars and Jaghatai are warrior-poets that are locked in a seemingly eternal conflict between their loyalty, honour, desire and perhaps even belief. The Word Bearers are not in it for the morality, or at least Lorgar isn't, they are in it for the absolute truth. The World Eaters are broken things that yearn for their Father's recognition, but Angron's siblings, those gladiators he grew up with, were his siblings, his true family; now he is a warlord that deals with survivor's guilt. I could go on and on about most of the other legions, but the Wolves? Eh, I don't know really. They still seem like a very, very basic noble savage trope to me. Naturally, all legions are based on common tropes, but I feel that most have grown beyond that. The Wolves, however, still seem like the very basic viking that will always give you lip, is strong and savage and wild, yet still disciplined, but is still somehow oh so misunderstood or constructs this image "on purpose". It is just so...boring for a lack of a better word. Beyond the Primarchs series story about Leman Russ, I haven't really enjoyed most of the HH novels about the SW or chapters portrayed from their perspective. It's so bad that I felt actually relieved when the frenzied Blood Angels tore their Watchpack apart in Fear to Tread (A book that I didn't really enjoy otherwise).

Also, the Watchpacks, to me, are such a ridiculous idea. A whole unit of Alpha Legion infiltrators did not manage to kill an unarmoured Roboute, and yet I am supposed to believe that somebody thought that it'd be feasible to slay some of the Primarchs while still armoured and while clearly being perceived as outsiders and thus never left alone with them? Sanguinius, Angron, Dorn, Perturabo, Ferrus etc. would have turned them into a greasy smear of blood on the floor. It reeks of unfounded arrogance, I suppose, to me anyways. I understand their purpose as the Emperor's Executioners, and we have a very nice example of that function during the burning of Prospero, but that was a massed legion assault. It just doesn't warrant the trust put into small packs and their capabilities, in my eyes. As a reader, I have no reason to believe that they pose any form of threat.

Also, it irates me when people compare them to heroes of germanic folklore, as those heroes (i.e. Siegfried or Rüdiger from the Lay of the Nibelungs; Hiltibrant or Hadubrandt from the Hildebrandslied; Parzival from, well, Parzival; and more) have nothing in common with the SW, Germanic heroes are either jovial, lighthearted, yet immensely competent warrior-kings and must be undone by either treason or a conflict of fealty (See Rüdiger and Siegfried), tragic heroes that are either undone by fate or survive but live a life of misery (See Hiltibrant who must slay his son Hadubrandt, who does not recognize him after decades of war and thus believes his father dead, and takes Hiltibrant for an imposter), or are more or less average knights of various humoristic dispositions that succeed more by fate and luck, and less through skill or competence (See Parzival). The Space Wolves are neither of the three, and in the last two and a half years of my work with medieval german, swiss and austrian texts, this has become painfully apparent to me. Perhaps that is what I do not like about them; they have such a rich culture to draw from, but they are reduced to the barebone "runes, axes, mead, and saga" shtick that is so overdone in fiction. Now, Viking and nordic culture is what the SW are supposed to represent and not germanic ones, I know, but both have very strong similarities and themes (Visually and culturally), that it might be interesting to blend both into them (The fact that we actually have so many medieval germanic texts, which were the saga prime-time so to say, also helps).

This ramble has probably become way too long.

[Kinstryfe]

librisrouge, I would argue that everything you described about chaos and daemons is true of humanity, because chaos is shaped by humanity. You're applying your current morality to something that simply doesn't care about others' perceptions of morality. Humanity has killed, enslaved, beat, pillaged, and committed atrocities both known and unknown since before we had written language, usually in the pursuit of power and dominance for themselves, their tribe, their nation, etc. The impulse of the first human murder even has a special role in the setting.

Daemons show a disregard for human life, but so do humans. In the source material, so does the Imperium. You know all the stories about how so and so sacrificed an entire planetary population and ascended to daemonhood? Monarchia, an entire planet of humans, was burnt to ash just to make the point that Lorgar /was too slow/for The Emperor's liking. While we can say that from our morality and viewpoint chaos is objectively evil, we also have to then accept that the Imperium and pretty much all the Legions are just as evil. I think the main difference is that the Word Bearers, to an extent, realize this and are ok with it.

 

Oddly, I'm finding that the more I think about why I don't like certain legions, the less that I dislike them. Maybe it's just unfamiliarity?

[MyD4rkPassenger]

I can't bring myself to like the Wolves, I suspect mainly due to my first book being A Thousand Sons.  In most novels I've read I got a feeling of supreme arrogance like others here have mentioned.  I actually like the viking influences, though I agree the 40k wolves take it to a new level, I feel it gives them good character.  The tipping point probably came with the appearance of the wulfen and the existence of rune priests after Nikea, it screams of hypocrisy to me and while I don't wish they were gone or out of the fluff, I don't think I'll ever pick up one of their books or create an army of them.  

 

Additionally I don't care too much for the EC. I've always disliked their god of choice, simply due to the way the internet and certain groups twist the concept of excess, but I can't exactly put my finger on it why I don't like them.  Same with the Sons of Horus, I can't put my finger on it, I just don't really enjoy reading about them.  

[kijamon]

I like all of the legions stories, I don't like their fans. I am sick to death of "Magnus did nothing wrong" and people who genuinely believe that. If you are a fan of the Thousand Sons and you believe that they did nothing wrong, you are doing their entire backstory a complete disservice and you don't understand it. 

 

Their tragedy is their arrogance and ignorance, not that the Wolves came to town. It's a really wonderful story of an army that thought they could just carry on with their research because everything would work out okay in the end. And when it comes crashing down it does so in such a horrible tragic way that you can't help but read it and be pleading that they fix it before it's too late.

 

Someone above is discussing the Space Wolf watch packs - I don't think they were intended to kill a primarch/enemy, there aren't enough Space Wolves for that - I think they were there so that if they stopped reporting in that the legion they were assigned to become much more watched by those loyal to the Emperor. It's a good idea IMO but terrible executed and it came at a time when the Space Wolves were at the top of their superiority complex. If you want to see them at a low ebb then read some of the books like The Wolf King which gives them a bit more of a morose tone.

[Kizzdougs]

 

Also, don't forget that as outside readers we have a much better understanding of what the Chaos Gods represent, and are capable of, than the average character in 30k/40k. We know that Chaos worship is a bad idea, but the characters, especially in 30k, don't necessarily have the same level of understanding.

 

• Chaos worshipers don't see Chaos as 'evil'

But they should and that is why I dislike the Word Bearers. You're looking at deities that, by their actions, are antithetical to mankind and our property. The creation of daemon worlds destroy every semblance of human civilization upon the planet and enslave any survivors that aren't extremely powerful or have ascended to daemonhood themselves. Daemons regularly show an amazingly blunt and casual disregard for human like. They favor tactics that any culture that espouses a system of honor would find extremely underhanded. Heck. Calth was powered by BETRAYAL! Most religions, and atheistic moral codes, can agree that there is a reason why treason is seen as bad. Chaos worshipers don't see it that way and, in my opinion, it makes them, their gods, and their beliefs foolish and evil.

The problem is that we know much, much more about the nature of the 30k/40k universe than the actual characters in the setting do. So to try to understand the motivations and actions of in-universe characters by applying our outside knowledge and 21st Century moral codes doesn't work too well.

We can see that Chaos is evil thanks to our outside perspective. The in-universe characters don't have that luxury. They can't just fire up the space internet and do some research on the Chaos Gods and their practices... They don't know that Daemons are evil or that they are even Daemons. Of the very few people in the 30k setting that are actually aware of daemons most think that they were just another Xenos race, and in 40k hardly anyone even knows that they exist. To most people Chaos offers freedom and/or power (we know that this isn't true, but the characters don't realise until it's too late). Once the Chaos Gods have you in their clutches that's it! Questions of morality don't even come into the conversation.

Also, most people who fall into Chaos worship only see the alluring/seductive face of Chaos. It's not all Daemon Princes and Daemon Worlds. That comes afterwards when it's too late to turn back.

 

• The Word Bearers are genetically predisposed to fanaticism and come from a home world that worshipped the Chaos Gods;

The problem here is, again, I'm struggling to see how the Word Bearers could see the worship of Chaos as a moral action? I don't think they do, honestly, and little that I've read makes me believe they worship Chaos for anything like wholesome reasons. They wan't power, have cultural momentum, or are inexplicably blind to the consequences of their actions, sure. The Imperium has a breathtaking lack of concern for fanaticism, yet the Word Bearers, hardly the most fanatical faction (cough*Templars*cough) decide to turn their devotion to something antithetical to mankind.

To the Word Bearers Chaos is not antithetical to humanity. It is the future, it is the truth, it is enlightenment, and it will give humanity the power to dominate the galaxy. We know this is wrong, but the Word Bearers don't. They have aligned themselves with 'powers' that gift them with great physical strength and endurance, the ability to wield the power of the warp (sorcery) and cheat death, and a much safer and speedier means of warp travel... they all sound like pretty positive attributes to have if you're trying to conquer the galaxy for your species. The problem with Chaos is that the worshipers always starts off believing that they are the ones in control. We know that's not true, but the in-universe characters don't.

 

Also, if you think the Word Bearers are "hardly the most fanatical faction" we might be talking about two different Word Bearers Legions... Black Templar fans like to hype the whole ZEAL! thing by writing ZEAL! everywhere, but when it comes to fanaticism and belief they've got nothing on the Word Bearers.

• and Chaos worship was always present in the Legion and had extremely powerful/influential backers (Kor Phaeron (First Captain) and Erebus (First Chaplain) et al). 

Which is why I don't blame Lorgar for worshiping Chaos; I blame him for being blind and foolishly allowing his friendship to turn him away from a course of moral action. He surrendered his moral sovereignty when he is confronted with clear evil (look at his experiences in First Heretic) and he doesn't even balk. The guy was already a slave, he merely needed a master and would accept any. This makes for a weak character in my opinion.

Lorgar was always looking for the Truth, something that would explain the nature of the universe. He thought he had found it in the Emperor (he prophesied the Emperor's coming to Colchis and converted the plant to the worship of The One), but when the Emperor disabused him of that belief he turned to 'The Powers' as they were referred to on Colchis. It's not necessarily that he was looking for something to worship (although belief/faith is major aspect of Lorgar's character), he was looking for the most powerful forces in the universe to align himself with. Doesn't that seem like a rational thing to do when you're fighting for species survival and domination of the galaxy? Find the most powerful allies that you can. The Chaos Gods are real and they offer real power, although at a terrible cost. Of course we know that he chose incredibly poorly, but again we're looking in from the outside and applying our specialist knowledge of the setting and Chaos and our 21st Century morals and ethics to the scenario.

 

Also, I recommend the Lorgar Primarch novela, Lorgar: Bearer of the Word, it has some interesting perspectives on the whole master/slave relationship between Lorgar and Kor Phaeron.

 

Edit: Personally I find the Word Bearers and Lorgar really interesting. I feel that they are one of the Legions that suffer the most from the internet meme treatment, much in the same way that people like to see 40k Abaddon as a failure or the Ultramarines as boring/vanilla 

 

Please allow me to make some counter arguments.

 

I suppose my problem boils down to the idea that Chaos seems clearly bad for mankind. Perhaps good for individuals who desire to ascend to daemonhood, but bad for literally anybody else and most of the former. I doubt any of the Word Bearer controlled planets would justifiably be called anything like a paradise or utopia. The vast majority, if not all, undoubtedly would be the opposite. Yet, with 10,000 years of this evidence that Chaos is bad and unworthy of worship, they don't care and worship away because ultimately, like a Night Lord or Black Legionary, they only ultimately believe in might making right and the 'gods' they purport to worship are just the means to some end.

 

Regarding the Word Bearer controlled planets: Of course they're not better off, but they assuredly thought that they would be when they started on the path to Chaos worship. What 10,000 years? We're talking about the Heresy timeline aren't we? Even if we aren't, it's not like the Word Bearers could conduct their 10,000 year experiment and then opt out of Chaos worship... once you're in, you're in. Your soul is forfeit.

That's the tragedy/great deception of Chaos worship. To people without an understanding of Chaos and the Dark Gods it seems like a good idea on the surface. By the time that they realise that they might have made a mistake it's either too late to go back or they're already too far gone to properly understand their situation.

 

 

librisrouge, I would argue that everything you described about chaos and daemons is true of humanity, because chaos is shaped by humanity. You're applying your current morality to something that simply doesn't care about others' perceptions of morality. Humanity has killed, enslaved, crushed, pillaged, and committed atrocities both known and unknown since before we had written language, usually in the pursuit of power and dominance for themselves, their tribe, their nation, etc. The impulse of the first human murder even has a special role in the setting.

Daemons show a disregard for human life, but so do humans. In the source material, so does the Imperium. You know all the stories about how so and so sacrificed an entire planetary population and ascended to daemonhood? Monarchia, an entire planet of humans, was burnt to ash just to make the point that Lorgar /was too slow/for The Emperor's liking. While we can say that from our morality and viewpoint chaos is objectively evil, we also have to then accept that the Imperium and pretty much all the Legions are just as evil. I think the main difference is that the Word Bearers, to an extent, realize this and are ok with it.

 

I definitely don't think the Imperium/Emperor are as 'evil' as the Chaos Gods. The Emperor does what he does (some undeniably terrible things) in the name of species survival. He can see the bigger picture and is willing to do terrible things to ensure the species' survival/advancement. He is willing to cut off the gangrenous finger to save the limb.

 

Oddly, I'm finding that the more I think about why I don't like certain legions, the less that I dislike them. Maybe it's just unfamiliarity?

 

This is key!!! I wasn't a fan of certain Legions, but as I read more about them and started to get a better understanding of their background and motivations the more I can sympathise with them. I find that people that don't like certain Legions haven't actually read too much about those Legions (and they probably wont read about them because they don't like them).

Personally I wasn't a fan of the Dark Angels until I read a few of the HH books featuring them. Now I recon they're a pretty cool Legion, and I'm sure I'll like them even more once they get the Black Book treatment.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Kizzdougs

[Brother Lunkhead]

Wow... So much love.... So much hate....So much passion. That's one of the reasons I love 40k so much! On the whole there are aspects of each legion that makes me like them all. But if I must choose, well... here goes.

 

Traitors:

 

I want to like Alpha Legion more than I do.... Abnett, I blame you for that. They are still just too mysterious for me to get a handle on. 

Night Lords..... blood thirsty, psychopathic serial killers..... I like them a lot. AD-B, I blame you for that. He really puts a human face on them (yeah, I know). Then they do something vile to an entire planetary population and you're snapped back to "oh yeah, they're evil and must be destroyed".

World Eaters... football hooligans with chain axes....what's not to love?

Emperors Children.... Ugolino, you're right. Fell too far and too fast to be sympathetic..... but wait a minute.... noise marines.... rock and roll... I like them for that alone.

Death Guard....cute, slimy Nurgly marines....I love them too. There is just something funny about space marines with an eternal bad cold.

Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Thousand Sons.... Great fluff , interesting characters, AD-B, Graham McNeill, John French. Good stuff.

Then I come to my favorite chaos scum... the Word Bearers. I don't quite know why I have a soft spot for these daemon worshipping, religious fanatics... There's a certain tragic element in Lorgar's desperate need for god worship. Oh well... crazy, mixed up religious fanatic kids.

 

In the end though, they are all monsterous traitors and must be destroyed.... so sad 

 

Loyalists:

 

White Scars and Space Wolves..... Noble barbaric warriors all. Fleet nomads of the steppe and space Vikings all fluffed up properly by Chris Wraight... I love them.

Iron Hands.... Hard hearted metal warriors.... hard to love them, but they do look cool in their steam punky way.

Imperial Fists.... Noble warriors of Dorn in Tonka Truck Yellow armour... how can you not love that.... S&M flagellant element... not so much.

Dark Angels..... Knightly order theme ..... very cool.... secretive self-centered agenda.... not very cool. You never know when they are going to skip out on you in the middle of a battle, chasing after Cypher and his ilk..... not very reliable if you ask me.

Blood Angels.... black rage, red thirst, and noble angelic Sanguinius.... how cool is that?

Salamanders and Raven Guard.... Noble chapters both, with interesting fluff. I like these guys even if I don't play them.

Then there is my favorite chapter....THE ULTRAMARINES... not your favorite chapter too.... really..... how come ? Noble, Romanesque, impeccable honour, warriors without peer... blah, blah, blah.... in theory, that's why I like them. They represent all that is good in a space marine (yeah, I'm corny like that).... in theory.

GW created these generic blue marines and plastered them all over their boxes because they photograph well and are easy to paint and that is all.... imo. 

They then built them up in the fluff as these military perfect space marines and then had otherwise fine authors write stories where anyone could see that they were really goofballs that couldn't fight there way out of a paper bag. Until fairly recently there was this contradictory picture of the Ultramarines that just drove people crazy. I love them, but I totally get why some people HATE them...... Ugolino, I'm sorry the Ultramarines killed your dog... it was an accident... they really feel bad about it ... honest!

 

Anyway.... That's my opinion... and I'm stickin' to it 

[bluntblade]

Every day, Guilliman feels sorry that the Emperor ordered him to kill that dog.

[librisrouge]

I'd reply to specific people but too many replied to me. I do like a dialogue too much to not reply though. Most counter-counter arguments to Word Bearer dislike seem to boil down to two perspectives:

• They can't know, being stuck in universe, what we know
• Moral reletavism

To the first, I say that they should know enough. The results of Chaos corruption are pretty apparent pretty quick. I know that this isn't much help to those who've already fallen because, as one member astutely mentioned, once you've been take by Chaos your soul is forfeit and you're without hope of reformation. However, when they fell it was by steps, yet it seemed that the legion fell completely (or at least very close to it.) They had to do ridiculously low amounts of house keeping to purify their legion (particularly compared to other legions.) Yet, when members came back possessed by daemons, growing horns and engaging in clear mutation, almost nobody stood up and said, "Wait. This doesn't seem right. Perhaps we're making a very big mistake here." 

 

To the second, the Imperium is not as bad as Chaos. Not by a long shot. The Imperium actually cares about macro-humanity (the whole) even if it often sacrifices micro-humanity (the individual) for short term gains. Chaos doesn't care about either, and repeatedly demonstrates it. Daemonworlds are nothing more than playgrounds for monsters. The Imperium, however, has multiple half-way decent worlds. Chaos wants every planet to be a daemonworld. The Imperium would gladly shape their swords into plowshares if they weren't surrounded with enemies that have proven themselves, repeatedly, hellbent on humanity's extinction. Multiple books (specifically the Cain and Gaunt's Ghosts series come to mind) acknowledge this. Khorne, however, doesn't care from where the blood flows, just that it does.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I'd reply to specific people but too many replied to me. I do like a dialogue too much to not reply though. Most counter-counter arguments to Word Bearer dislike seem to boil down to two perspectives:

• They can't know, being stuck in universe, what we know
• Moral reletavism

To the first, I say that they should know enough. The results of Chaos corruption are pretty apparent pretty quick. I know that this isn't much help to those who've already fallen because, as one member astutely mentioned, once you've been take by Chaos your soul is forfeit and you're without hope of reformation. However, when they fell it was by steps, yet it seemed that the legion fell completely (or at least very close to it.) They had to do ridiculously low amounts of house keeping to purify their legion (particularly compared to other legions.) Yet, when members came back possessed by daemons, growing horns and engaging in clear mutation, almost nobody stood up and said, "Wait. This doesn't seem right. Perhaps we're making a very big mistake here." 

 

To the second, the Imperium is not as bad as Chaos. Not by a long shot. The Imperium actually cares about macro-humanity (the whole) even if it often sacrifices micro-humanity (the individual) for short term gains. Chaos doesn't care about either, and repeatedly demonstrates it. Daemonworlds are nothing more than playgrounds for monsters. The Imperium, however, has multiple half-way decent worlds. Chaos wants every planet to be a daemonworld. The Imperium would gladly shape their swords into plowshares if they weren't surrounded with enemies that have proven themselves, repeatedly, hellbent on humanity's extinction. Multiple books (specifically the Cain and Gaunt's Ghosts series come to mind) acknowledge this. Khorne, however, doesn't care from where the blood flows, just that it does.

Something else in a similar vein. There's a few WBs who do know what they are, but just roll with the obvious destructive evil. Argel Tal, for example. (you know, the guy everyone likes?) specifically goes along with all the evil he sees, and is complicit in, because it's the 'truth' (plus loyalty to Lorgar), even though he knows it's wrong. If he's the thoughtful, moral Astartes, he seems to think himself as, he should've either sided with Vendatha on Cadia, told his Custodes mate the truth pre-Heresy, or eaten his bolter some time before Betrayer started. And then most of the rest of the Legion are too often card carrying zealots, with no doubt at their own righteousness. It's like Night Lords without any of the internecine conflict and angst that gives them so much of their character. And that's fine, it makes the WBs really effective antagonists, and a useful part of the wider setting, but that's really not my thing.

 

Interestingly, their FW coverage in Massacre actually made me dislike the WBs more. I really liked the concept FW gave the pre-Lorgar Iconoclasts. They made so much more sense in the Imperial Truth Great Crusade than the Word Bearers and Colchis. But no, Lorgar had go and ruin his Legion .

[choppyred]

I think that it is heavily hinted that the Word Bearers are geneticly conditioned to be totaly obidient lo Lorgar. So when Lorgar falls the rest follow.

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

I'd reply to specific people but too many replied to me. I do like a dialogue too much to not reply though. Most counter-counter arguments to Word Bearer dislike seem to boil down to two perspectives:

• They can't know, being stuck in universe, what we know
• Moral reletavism

To the first, I say that they should know enough. The results of Chaos corruption are pretty apparent pretty quick. I know that this isn't much help to those who've already fallen because, as one member astutely mentioned, once you've been take by Chaos your soul is forfeit and you're without hope of reformation. However, when they fell it was by steps, yet it seemed that the legion fell completely (or at least very close to it.) They had to do ridiculously low amounts of house keeping to purify their legion (particularly compared to other legions.) Yet, when members came back possessed by daemons, growing horns and engaging in clear mutation, almost nobody stood up and said, "Wait. This doesn't seem right. Perhaps we're making a very big mistake here." 

 

To the second, the Imperium is not as bad as Chaos. Not by a long shot. The Imperium actually cares about macro-humanity (the whole) even if it often sacrifices micro-humanity (the individual) for short term gains. Chaos doesn't care about either, and repeatedly demonstrates it. Daemonworlds are nothing more than playgrounds for monsters. The Imperium, however, has multiple half-way decent worlds. Chaos wants every planet to be a daemonworld. The Imperium would gladly shape their swords into plowshares if they weren't surrounded with enemies that have proven themselves, repeatedly, hellbent on humanity's extinction. Multiple books (specifically the Cain and Gaunt's Ghosts series come to mind) acknowledge this. Khorne, however, doesn't care from where the blood flows, just that it does.

Something else in a similar vein. There's a few WBs who do know what they are, but just roll with the obvious destructive evil. Argel Tal, for example. (you know, the guy everyone likes?) specifically goes along with all the evil he sees, and is complicit in, because it's the 'truth' (plus loyalty to Lorgar), even though he knows it's wrong. If he's the thoughtful, moral Astartes, he seems to think himself as, he should've either sided with Vendatha on Cadia, told his Custodes mate the truth pre-Heresy, or eaten his bolter some time before Betrayer started. And then most of the rest of the Legion are too often card carrying zealots, with no doubt at their own righteousness. It's like Night Lords without any of the internecine conflict and angst that gives them so much of their character. And that's fine, it makes the WBs really effective antagonists, and a useful part of the wider setting, but that's really not my thing.

 

Interestingly, their FW coverage in Massacre actually made me dislike the WBs more. I really liked the concept FW gave the pre-Lorgar Iconoclasts. They made so much more sense in the Imperial Truth Great Crusade than the Word Bearers and Colchis. But no, Lorgar had go and ruin his Legion .

 

 

 

I think that it is heavily hinted that the Word Bearers are geneticly conditioned to be totaly obidient lo Lorgar. So when Lorgar falls the rest follow.

 

Genetically conditioned to be totally obedient...... I don't think so. It would be a neat explanation for how the WBs could so easily embrace a force like Chaos, which is so obviously destructive. But I don't think it's as simple as that. I'm sure like all legions, they undergo hypno-conditioning to instill a greater degree of obedience. I think that it's a combination of many factors that lead to their fall to Chaos.  Genetic link to their Primarch does, I'm sure have a great deal to do with their fall, but I think it was other flaws/characteristics that were more influential than obedience. Horus himself observes with some regret that it was his "broken" brothers who followed him into rebellion.

 

In Dan Abnett's 'Know No Fear' Sorot Tchure (gaaahhh... if I had a name like that, I'd probably fall to Chaos too) confides to Honorius Luciel (only slightly easier to pronounce.... but I guess easy enough not to fall to Chaos) the Word Bearers dissatisfaction with Lorgar to the point of even hating him. I don't think you could say such things if you were genetically conditioned to obedience. No.... I think that the WBs follow Lorgar much for the same reasons that the other fallen legions followed their Primarchs into damnation. It's layered and complicated.... and that's why I find the WBs so interesting, as I do many of the other traitor legions.... they're complicated.

[Marshal Rohr]

Zorro Tah-kur. I think that’s how it’s probounced. Edited October 31, 2017 by Marshal Rohr

[carlisimo]

Obedience?  Half the novels featuring the Word Bearers seem to involve Lorgar sending his unreliable captains on missions that they end up failing, and Lorgar doesn't seem too bothered about it.

[Daddywarcrimes]

Obedience?  Half the novels featuring the Word Bearers seem to involve Lorgar sending his unreliable captains on missions that they end up failing, and Lorgar doesn't seem too bothered about it.

 

In the case of Calth, that was deliberate.  He sent his least reliable captains to go die messily so that they wouldn't be in the way during the Shadow Crusade.

[bluntblade]

His unreliable High Chaplain, however, is an issue. And we all know how Lorgar addresses that

[Brother Lunkhead]

Zorro Tah-kur. I think that’s how it’s probounced.

 

gaaaahhhhh...... How did you do that and not turn inside-out and explode into a daemon prince? 

[shandwen]

Alpha Legion: everything works too perfectly. There will always be a small misstep or an accident, so their plans would fail.

Word Bearers: they so fervently believed in their truth that they threw it away at the first speedbump.

Deathguard: we have 8 companies, but one of the top 8 leaders has only met our primary twice, and has to prove himself the equal of random dudes...

[bluntblade]

7 Grand Companies. That's more a complaint about poor writing than Legion character.