Articulate your reasons for not liking certain legions

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I pretty much despise Alpha Legion as they show no redeeming values at all. To me they are the worst followed closely by Word Bearers.

[slitth]

 

 

Their pilgrimage felt like a search for the next remotely godlike thing to pray to, instead of looking of the true gods.

 

In what fathomable way is that true?

 

You have a group of entities, which are spawned by/caused (chicken or egg) the fall of the last great galactic race. You have a group of entities which are the unarguable Big Bad of 30K, if not the entire setting, and you have a pilgrimage which explores not just the fact that these entities exist, and the back story of the fall of the Eldar, AND the genesis of the Emperor/Primarchs, and you boil that down to 'next remotely godlike thing'.

 

There are no truer Gods in 30K/40K, than Chaos. This is not debatable. 

 

As to this root topic.

 

I dont hate Legions, I hate the meme versions of Legions fans.

 

 

That depends on what you consider a "god" is.

 

True the Chaos gods are powerful, but does not necessarily make them divine entities.

It all depends on what the view defined as divine.

 

If the Word Bearers had come across a C'tan, they might as well start worshipping them.

Things might have gone different if they had found the Aza'gorod the Nightbringer.

 

Any way the shift from Emperor to chaos worship seem forced to me.

Perhaps if the Word Bearers have turned to view Lorgar as the true god of mankind after the rejection of the Emperor.

And then turned to chaos to allow Lorgar to turn him to a god that could cast down the Emperor.

I don't know, they just feel like they are just blind followers instead of fanatics.

[Scribe]

As far as the GW mythos is concerned, yes the Chaos God's are 'Gods'.

 

They interact with the Souls of the mortal races. This is again as close to fact as we will get out of the settings loose canon.

 

You are looking at it from a forced perspective if God's, of Worship.

 

Instead look at it perhaps as a search for the fundamental nature of existence.

 

The important hook here is the factual existence of the soul.

 

The Soul is real, and unlike the myths of our present day, there is no paradise after, just Hell.

 

Well before The First Heretic I figured Lorgar got a bad rap and it's only more true now.

 

The pilgrimage was more about truth, and revealing that the Emperor lied, than it was about finding something to worship.

 

Chaos speaks to the very real existence of the immortal soul, what is possibly more divine within the context of the GW mythology?

 

Edit: ugh auto-correct...

Edited December 29, 2017 by Scribe

[slitth]

As far as the GW mythos is concerned, yes the Chaos God's are 'Gods'.

 

They interact with the Souls of the mortal races. This is again as close to fact as we will get out of the settings loose canon.

 

You are looking at it from a forced perspective if God's, of Worship.

 

Instead look at it perhaps as a search for the fundamental nature of existence.

 

The important hook here is the factual existence of the soul.

 

The Soul is real, and unlike the myths of our present day, there is no paradise after, just Hell.

 

Well before The First Heretic I figured Lorgar got a bad rap and it's only more true now.

 

The pilgrimage was more about truth, and revealing that the Emperor lied, than it was about finding something to worship.

 

Chaos speaks to the very real existence of the immortal soul, what is possibly more divine within the context of the GW mythology?

 

Edit: ugh auto-correct...

 

They are gods and yet they are not gods.

There is room for both definitions with in the 40K universe.

 

To the true believers they are the proof of a divine pantheon.

And with in the 40K lore this is a fact.

As you yourself have shown.

 

And to others they are nothing but formless things that are given shape and nature by a subconscious mind.

Fabius Bile express the very concept in the book "Primogenitor"

And this definition is also true.

 

No, my problem is not with Lorgar or any of the major character within the Word Bearers.

Nor do I have problem with the chaos faith or the gods.

 

The problem is with the Legions reaction to it all.

Imagine the Pope and all this nearest followers saying that they were wrong and Buddhism is the way to go.

I would expect a strong reaction to that.

 

I did not see this in the Word Bearers legion.

The major character seem to have a religion epiphany and the rest just seem to follow the U-turn.

 

Lucky we see a better representation of the Word Bearers in the books following "The First Heretic"

Edited December 29, 2017 by slitth

[kenshin138]

Lets see here:

Dark Angels and Alpha Legion: Same reasons for both. I like their overall look. But their stories are too convoluted to keep track of. To the point that I just don't care...

 

Salamanders: They never did much for me, but I didn't dislike them. Then they went from being dark skinned to literally black skinned with red eyes and just look goofy IMHO. 

 

White Scars: Again, nothing about this legion ever did much for me. I've not read their books in the HH series, so maybe that would change. I wouldn't say I dislike them, so much as completely forget about them.

I used to dislike Thousand Sons (in 40k) as they were just bland to me. But years ago after A Thousand Sons came out, it really changed my opinion of them.

[Marshal Loss]

The problem is with the Legions reaction to it all.

Imagine the Pope and all this nearest followers saying that they were wrong and Buddhism is the way to go.

I would expect a strong reaction to that.

 

If their 'deity' came down and razed Rome to the ground before humiliating them in front of their peers, I think you'd be surprised at how many would switch camps. But either way, the comparison simply doesn't hold up, one can't compare a religion we possess to the beliefs of a force of mentally conditioned and genetically engineered super soldiers who appear to have loyalty to their gene-father bred into their DNA. Not to mention the fact that the existence of beings like the Chaos Gods contradicted the Imperial Truth.

 

You seem to misunderstand the nature of many religious fanatics; a lot of the time, they are simply seeking something to believe in. They need to believe. Belief is a core part of their being. Without dragging it into a real-world discussion, it's why many of the most aggressive theists make the most aggressive atheists, and vice versa. People swing from one side of the spectrum to the other. The Word Bearers sought something worthy of worship because of their world view, and they found it, because the gods denied by the Imperial Truth are real. Very real. And taking that into account, the Word Bearers are given far more 'proof' than any contemporary fanatics of the real world.

 

As for their search being for the next 'remotely godlike thing,' that's not how it happened at all. They found truth in the old religion of Colchis. A religion thousands of years old, they were able to follow up leads and prophecies and find out they were real. So it's not that they strolled along, found something powerful and went:

• 'oh, look, you seem to be pretty cool so we're going to burn the galaxy for you now.'

It was more like:

• 'the Emperor denied his own divinity and denied that gods exist, razed our greatest achievement to the ground and said we were failures despite all we had done for him and how loyal we were to him, and yet we have found proof that our ancient religion was spread across the stars, and that the gods of this religion are very real and nightmarishly powerful; their prophecies appear to be accurate and involve us, and they offer us untold power with which we can save humanity from the fate of dead alien empires.'

It doesn't make their decision sensible, but it is eminently understandable.

 

I am curious as to what you consider 'truer gods'. Disliking the Word Bearers for their fanaticism is fair enough, but saying they aren't acting like true fanatics is...an interesting opinion. ADB covered that quite effectively.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Marshal Loss

[slitth]

 

The problem is with the Legions reaction to it all.

Imagine the Pope and all this nearest followers saying that they were wrong and Buddhism is the way to go.

I would expect a strong reaction to that.

 

If their 'deity' came down and razed Rome to the ground before humiliating them in front of their peers, I think you'd be surprised at how many would switch camps. But either way, the comparison simply doesn't hold up, one can't compare a religion we possess to the beliefs of a force of mentally conditioned and genetically engineered super soldiers who appear to have loyalty to their gene-father bred into their DNA. Not to mention the fact that the existence of beings like the Chaos Gods contradicted the Imperial Truth.

 

You seem to misunderstand the nature of many religious fanatics; a lot of the time, they are simply seeking something to believe in. They need to believe. Belief is a core part of their being. Without dragging it into a real-world discussion, it's why many of the most aggressive theists make the most aggressive atheists, and vice versa. People swing from one side of the spectrum to the other. The Word Bearers sought something worthy of worship because of their world view, and they found it, because the gods denied by the Imperial Truth are real. Very real. And taking that into account, the Word Bearers are given far more 'proof' than any contemporary fanatics of the real world.

 

As for their search being for the next 'remotely godlike thing,' that's not how it happened at all. They found truth in the old religion of Colchis. A religion thousands of years old, they were able to follow up leads and prophecies and find out they were real. So it's not that they strolled along, found something powerful and went:

• 'oh, look, you seem to be pretty cool so we're going to burn the galaxy for you now.'

It was more like:

• 'the Emperor denied his own divinity and denied that gods exist, razed our greatest achievement to the ground and said we were failures despite all we had done for him and how loyal we were to him, and yet we have found proof that our ancient religion was spread across the stars, and that the gods of this religion are very real and nightmarishly powerful; their prophecies appear to be accurate and involve us, and they offer us untold power with which we can save humanity from the fate of dead alien empires.'

It doesn't make their decision sensible, but it is eminently understandable.

 

I am curious as to what you consider 'truer gods'. Disliking the Word Bearers for their fanaticism is fair enough, but saying they aren't acting like true fanatics is...an interesting opinion. ADB covered that quite effectively.

 

 

Well a true fanatical believer would have extreme reaction to have their faith but to the test, even by the own deity.

I would expect some of them to defy lesson of Monarchia and go on worshipping the emperor despite his wishes. Perhaps seeing it as a test of faith.

Other would do as Lorgar did and have a breakdown followed by an epiphany.

 

I would expect a violent religion war on Colchis as the legion found its new way.

 

And we see some of this in every named character that they story show us.

Lorgar, Kor Phaeron, Erebus, Argel Tal, Barthusa Narek all have strong sense of region and faith.

The unnamed part of the legion did not seem to have a strong reaction to religious crisis that followed after Monarchia.

Despite having a lot of interesting colourful character in the legion with a much different point of view to the rest of the Imperium.

The masses of the legion are as normal and disciplined as the Ultramarines. (or at least they seem so to me in the middle of "The First Heretic")

And that what I find lactating in the Word Bearers.

 

As for that I consider a true god.

That a hard question to answer.

Because true divinity is like chaos, it's beyond true understanding.

To me chaos is everything and order is that part of everything we currently understand.

And I would consider any force that is benign and compassionate to be touched by the divine.

But to what is cause of this, well I do not think that any human language would have words to accurately describe it.

[Scribe]

 

And I would consider any force that is benign and compassionate to be touched by the divine.

 

 

 

Wha?

 

Thats a fine enough definition as any, but thats not going to apply to 40K as a setting, let alone to any beings of power on the level of Gods. 

[Marshal Loss]

 

Well a true fanatical believer would have extreme reaction to have their faith but to the test, even by the own deity.

I would expect some of them to defy lesson of Monarchia and go on worshipping the emperor despite his wishes. Perhaps seeing it as a test of faith.

Other would do as Lorgar did and have a breakdown followed by an epiphany.

 

I would expect a violent religion war on Colchis as the legion found its new way.

 

Some do defy the lessons of Monarchia and continue worshiping the Emperor. They are later winnowed out over a period of decades. In the novels, we don't see it, but we are told about it. You also aren't taking into account the hierarchical system that facilitated their fall - the Chaplains were a caste working behind the scenes, offering spirtual counsel to their brethren, twisting them along a new path bit by bit. The fall of the Word Bearers to Chaos was not a random, spontaneous event: it was a carefully orchestrated manipulation of existing beliefs, just like how Lorgar turned his Legion from those who cast down gods to those who worshipped the Emperor...why would there be a religious war on Colchis when

1. Like I said, the religion they switched to was deeply ingrained in the population (and those Legion recruits drawn from Colchis) from the beginning
2. and like I also said, the change from Emperor > Chaos Gods was done slowly over time, not spontaneously.

You should read HH Book 2: Massacre.

 

 

 

It might seem strange that warriors who had fought to cast down gods would embrace those same beliefs, but this ignores the basic nature of the fanatic. At their core they need a cause around which to build their world. What that cause is can be changed, so long as the heat of its fire fills them. In their hearts the XVIIth fell into the grasp of religion because part of them had always wanted to, part of them wanted there to be more to belief than rationality.

 

The unnamed part of the legion did not seem to have a strong reaction to religious crisis that followed after Monarchia.

 

You mean except for the tens of thousands of marines that go insane with vengeance? See: Calth.

 

 

As for that I consider a true god.

That a hard question to answer.

Because true divinity is like chaos, it's beyond true understanding.

To me chaos is everything and order is that part of everything we currently understand.

And I would consider any force that is benign and compassionate to be touched by the divine.

But to what is cause of this, well I do not think that any human language would have words to accurately describe it.

 

Missed the point. I don't want a theological debate! You said

 

Their pilgrimage felt like a search for the next remotely godlike thing to pray to, instead of looking of the true gods.

 

What true gods are there to find in Warhammer 40k? There are none more real than the chaos gods for humanity in this setting. The entire mythos is built around them, and the dogma of the entire Imperium and all of the Emperor's plans revolve around stopping them. Again, I understand not liking the Word Bearers perfectly well, but it is pretty clear that their pilgrimage was anything but a search for the next 'remotely godlike thing to pray to'. They did look for true gods. The problem is that they found them.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Marshal Loss

[shandwen]

HH book 2 didn't really cover how the vast majority of the Word Bearers gave up on their fanatical beliefs and picked up other ones. In general the early authors of the HH books completely failed to comprehend any form of religion.

The Word Bearers needed better authors and more books to show the shift (and probably shouldn't have been one of the largest legions with the extreme culling that would have been necessary). They have too many massive hole that are barely covered to hold water.

[Marshal Loss]

HH book 2 didn't really cover how the vast majority of the Word Bearers gave up on their fanatical beliefs and picked up other ones. In general the early authors of the HH books completely failed to comprehend any form of religion.

The Word Bearers needed better authors and more books to show the shift (and probably shouldn't have been one of the largest legions with the extreme culling that would have been necessary). They have too many massive hole that are barely covered to hold water.

 

No, but it explains how they turned from the Iconoclasts into the Word Bearers to begin with, which feeds into the point(s) I was making above. When combined with Tempest, The First Heretic, Betrayer, Scions of the Storm, and Lorgar: Bearer of the Word, the picture is pretty clear.

 

I don't think they needed better authors - ADB's novels were/are masterful - or more books, although more coverage would definitely have made things clearer. There are no massive holes, and any minor inconsistencies can be explained away by the scale of the galaxy the setting takes place in.

 

Lorgar was discovered in 857.M30

Monarchia is settled 103 years prior to Isstvan III, so 902/903.M30, which along with Massacre saying it took Lorgar decades to convert his Legion to the Emperor means it probably took him around 44/45 years at the absolute maximum given that Monarchia was full-Emperor from the moment it was settled

Monarchia was razed in 964.M30

 

That leaves around four decades between Monarchia and the beginning of the Heresy - roughly the same amount of time as it took Lorgar to turn his Legion from fanatics that tore down false idols to fanatics that worshiped the Emperor. During this entire time, Lorgar and the Legion's High Command are preparing for the war to come. Boosting recruitment, seeding worlds with cults, and slowly purging or corrupting those that do not readily join the new creed. They were already one of the largest Legions, so clearly they had no issues with recruitment. The same factors that allowed Lorgar to convert his Legion to belief in the Emperor helped him turn them to a darker faith. Not to mention the fact that for all of his faults, Lorgar is a Primarch, and if anybody can logistically do it, he could.

 

 

The second factor which allowed Lorgar to convert his Legion to the belief in the Emperor's divinity was the nature of the Great Crusade itself. Across countless fronts the Legions fought, suffered casualties and recruited anew. As this attrition mixed the old with the new, so the blood of the Iconoclastic Imperial Heralds was diluted with that of Colchis and then with dozens of worlds on the bloody edge of conquest. These were sons who had never seen teh light of Sol, nor known the Legion as it had been. They accepted what was taught to them because it was the only truth offered. In the case of those of Colchis, the belief in the divine was ingrained into every thought from birth.

 

Not to mention what Erebus says in The First Heretic:

 

 

'The Legion never struggled to adopt the new faith. We are philosophers as much as warriors, and take pride in such. All could see how the gods had seeded their worship into our culture from generations in the past. The constellations. The cults that always looked skyward for answers. The Old Ways themselves. Few Word Bearers resisted the truth, for most had always felt it on some level.'

 

(...)

 

Erebus weighed his answer before giving it voice. ‘Not all wished to turn on the Imperium. They believed that stagnancy was strength, that stasis was preservation. No such reluctance remains in the Legion now.’

 

So we have a Legion where Captains do not gainsay Chaplains, and where these Chaplains are able to access individual battle brothers/squads/companies and act as a sort of confessional service, spreading rot throughout the Legion on a level far more personal than even the Lodges in other Legions. The world from which their entire Legion culture is derived, Colchis, was corrupted from the beginning, and the hierarchy of the Legion greatly assisted in their fall, sort of like trickle-down Heresy. I don't think it's hard to see how the Word Bearers turned from the Emperor to Chaos, and I also don't think them being so large at the time of the Heresy is implausible. Will have to agree to disagree on this.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Marshal Loss

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There are no noble members of the Alpha Legion or Word Bearers, not one.

[Kizzdougs]

Marshal Loss gets it :tu:

[slitth]

 

 

And I would consider any force that is benign and compassionate to be touched by the divine.

 

 

 

Wha?

 

Thats a fine enough definition as any, but thats not going to apply to 40K as a setting, let alone to any beings of power on the level of Gods. 

 

 

I still find my own definition vague.

 

As for the power of the chaos gods... Their power or abilities do not make them gods.

They are monsters from the id, made real by the warp thought the power of the subconscious mind/soul.

 

If you have ever seen the film "Forbidden Planet" you get where I'm coming from.

From that point of view there are no chaos gods, only the monsters of the id.

And worshipping them are more or less just worshipping of the self.

 

Or you can look at it a other way that the gods of the warp are made up by the divine spark that exist in all men.

 

And I would say that both are true because the concept of truth is based on the definition of the viewer.

 

Now if we where to take my definition of the divine in to the 40K world, then the chaos gods would be right out.

They are our basic instincts made manifest by the nature of the warp.

Not much of benign and compassionate to be found there.

 

But look at Lorgar.... He is benign and compassionate in his own inhumane way.

And he could have be the greatest defender against chaos if his religious ways where allowed.

 

As for the Word Bearers legion. I see to must of the blind followers in them and to little of the true believer.

[Aramis K]

Legions I don't like?

(Obviously this is about how I react to the aspects of their fluff I've seen. There are many perspectives, this is mine.)

 

I don't like the Night Lords - I can't abide the cruelty. I've never found their justifications anything but pathetic. Broken little sadists need to scrubbed out.

 

I don't like the Word Bearers - They seem really needy, desperate for something to validate them and to be lead. A cult. Their faith is weakness.

 

I don't like any of the legions when their theme is pushed too far. Wolfy wolf bros, flame flame friends, the rage brigade, etc. Taken too far we get flat characters and daft minis. Characters who play against type are often the most interesting.

 

Having recently painted a mini from every legion it was the Raven Guard I didn't enjoy. The flat black was both tricky to avoid grey and dull. The 1st Legion's gloss black is easier and I like the Iron Hands with a richly coloured oily black.

[Zeratil]

I don't think there are any legions I actually dislike, there are (and I'm massively generalising here) some legion's fanbases I think could do with calming down on the wider internet but that's neither here nor there. I don't want that to effect my opinions of the legions themselves.

  One thing the Heresy Series has done for me is massively improve my opinions of Legions I previously didn't care for. First Heretic and Betrayer made me like the Word Bearers and World Eaters a lot (although Lotarra Sarrin deserves her own Legion). Whereas before they'd always been also-rans for me amongst the Chaos lot. The various FW books really connected me with some of the legions, my first HH force was Iron Warriors solely on the strength of HH Book 2(?)

  The biggest change is the Wolves, I really don't care for the SW aesthetic and theme in 40k, Abnett's Wolves are much more appealing to me. I think the only HH depictions I haven't enjoyed so far have been the Blood Angels and Dark Angels. Blood Angels admittedly haven't seen an amazing amount of screen time but I didn't enjoy Fear to Tread very much. Dark Angels likewise I've not really enjoyed the BL HH fiction about them, it doesn't tell the stories about them I'm interested in. Of course whenever they appear in FW books I might well change my mind.

[bluntblade]

Lets see here:

Dark Angels and Alpha Legion: Same reasons for both. I like their overall look. But their stories are too convoluted to keep track of. To the point that I just don't care...

 

Salamanders: They never did much for me, but I didn't dislike them. Then they went from being dark skinned to literally black skinned with red eyes and just look goofy IMHO. 

 

White Scars: Again, nothing about this legion ever did much for me. I've not read their books in the HH series, so maybe that would change. I wouldn't say I dislike them, so much as completely forget about them.

I used to dislike Thousand Sons (in 40k) as they were just bland to me. But years ago after A Thousand Sons came out, it really changed my opinion of them.

I think the White Scars books would probably alter your opinion.

[Caillum]

 

White Scars: Again, nothing about this legion ever did much for me. I've not read their books in the HH series, so maybe that would change. I wouldn't say I dislike them, so much as completely forget about them.

I think the White Scars books would probably alter your opinion.

Oh yeah, the books made the White Scars REALLY likeable. You should definitely read them!

[Zeratil]

Yeah Chris Wraight is an excellent BL author. I didn't care for Battle for the Fang but his HH stuff is excellent. Path of Heaven has a permanent place on my phone.

[Gorgoff]

 

 

White Scars: Again, nothing about this legion ever did much for me. I've not read their books in the HH series, so maybe that would change. I wouldn't say I dislike them, so much as completely forget about them.

I think the White Scars books would probably alter your opinion.

Oh yeah, the books made the White Scars REALLY likeable. You should definitely read them!

I second that.

Before the book I pretty much ignored them all together. That whole mongols in space theme just didn't work for me at all, but Damn, that book changed my mind. Awesome HH fluff.

[Knight of the Raven]

(although Lotarra Sarrin deserves her own Legion)

I could watch her shoot legionaries in the face with a laspistol for insubordination all day.

 

There are many Legions I didn't care about and regularly forgot about before I started reading forums about Warhammer 40,000, such as Iron Hands and White Scars, and back when I started, with only some White Dwarfs to learn about the universe, I didn't dislike any of the Legions I knew about. I also liked some of them without being actually interested in making an army of them.

 

Then they were developped.

 

I loved the Alpha Legion as the prideful masters of synchronized assaults. Now they're just a ridiculous plot device that makes me roll my eyes every time I'm reminded of their existence, the sole exception being Deus Ex Ferrum's interpretation of their battle against Ultramarines in their Index Astartes actually being a civil war between Alpharius and Omegon. I incidentally didn't know about the Twins until I ventured on the net.

 

edit: realized the last part was exclusive to their post-Heresy incarnation, so I removed it.

 

edit 2: also realized all the things I dislike about the Space Wolves Legion are down to either Dan Abnett' so-called improvements or those among their fans that can be accurately described as fanatics, not to the actual VIth Legion itself, so removed the entire bit about Space Wolves. So much about thinking before I post, eh?

Edited December 30, 2017 by Knight of the Raven

[Kasper_Hawser]

Both Valdor and Russ declared the death of everyone on Prospero, at the point that the Thousand Sons powers went out of control around the time of the Impossible battle, due to the fact that they feared that all Prosperines may be corrupted and that the world needed to die.

 

Prior to that point the Wolves only killed anyone who carried a weapon against them and did not kill everyone indiscriminately

 

The Sons of Horus were indiscriminately killing and taking psyker prisoners from the moment they landed as part of the reserve force. 

 

Inferno does state that some Prosperines were killed but this was down to being caught in cross fires or were trampled as the civilians fled.

 

So Spireguard, thousand sone et al, had a hand in the death of the Prosperines.

 

Thousand Sons for their Stupidity and hubris which cost the Imperium so much and effectively handed Horus the advantage from the start of the Heresy

 

OK, forgive my ignorance and not reading a lot of the latest books, not even Leman Russ Primarch book. But when the heck were there Sons of Horus on Prospero? What the heck and why were they there? 

 

Yet another "intrusion" into the Prospero scene. As if the Custodes and Sisters of Silence wasn't bad enough to take the glory/shame of the Burning of Prospero away. then again, on the more positive side, it means the shame of Leman Russ and the Wolves for being in the wrong place fighting the wrong war can also be shared with Valdor and his golden bananas.

 

 

 

Valdor would have preferred to take Magnus alive up till the very end

 

Russ, to some degree, enjoyed the Razing of Prospero, even if at the beginning he was hoping for a peaceful resolution.

 

See Wraight's short story Magisterium.

 

Yeah I read Magisterium, I agree with both those assertions from Valdor's pov. Valdor would have preferred taking Magnus in alive, and Russ did appear to be enjoying himself. How much was of that was Russ putting on the Russ Persona we can't know.

 

What I took from Magisterium was that Valdor generally had a distastes for the Primarchs behaving like they were human. I would have to agree with Valdor pov the Primarchs are not human, and things would have been much better of it they could have accepted that they had a place in the universe because the Emperor willed them to, rather than that they were also part of humanity. Instead the Great Crusade filled them with a monstrous pride, and self satisfaction, which lead all 18 into mental loops they couldn't escape. 

 

 

Sigh, God I hate the damn Custodes, and by extension, the Emperor for continually making themselves NOT human yet for all intent and purposes, think only the Emperor and themselves know what's best for humanity. And so they forge humanity's future COMPLETELY disregarding the little people. Heck, even disregarding the PRIMARCHS and the legions. For a civilization so averse to artificial intelligence and thinking automata, they still complain when even the primarchs and the legions DON'T behave like mindless obedient automata. It's like to them, the original sin of all the Primarchs was trying to be human like the ones who raised them.

 

Suddenly I feel a small twinge of pity for Lorgar, Horus and Magnus, as they may have realised this "tool mentality" of the Emperor in regards to the Primarchs. Doesn't change the magnitude of their sins, but it does adjust my perspective on why they turned. I think even the Lion realised at some point that for the Emperor, the only real sin is FAILURE to follow orders.

 

That being said, I still think Lorgar was the most foolish and in spite of the disproportionate punishment that was Monarchia, he should have talked to his brothers (other than Magnus) rather than listen to Kor Phaeron and Erebus. Heck, I think the best one to talk to would have been Russ, who also struggled with his identity and place, and was one of the few brothers who actually respected Lorgar instead of despising him. 

[Dantay VI]

PM'd to avoid further derailment

[Kasper_Hawser]

Sorry, will stop going off topic.

[Dantay VI]

Not totally off-topic. You now explain why you do not like Custodes... even though not a legion as such they are still a part of the forces involved in the HH