Articulate your reasons for not liking certain legions

[Kasper_Hawser]

Perhaps we should shorten our reasons and only paint the broad picture of why we hate/dislike certain legions. If we keep discussing every detailed nuance and inconsistency between BL, the black books and 40K interpretations, we'll forever be butting heads on the details of Prospero, or Death Guard portrayals by different authors etc.

 

So to summarize my dislike of legions

 

1) Thousand Sons - Hubris and arrogance. It's not necessarily their use of sorcery as their MO. It's their general "know-it-all" attitude and refusal to temper/control/moderate their studies when everyone, even their allies like the Khan, told them so or risk censure or WORSE.

 

I wish there could have been a TS character against that mould, but sadly I've only seen one and even he was post prospero burns. Arvuda Revui from the Scars book (sorry, can't remember his exact name) doesn't behave like that but possibly because he saw the fruits that was burned Tizca and therefore had nothing to boast anymore. Poor guy. Although I understand his fate is somewhat better later.

 

2) Emperor's Children - Actually I'm still weirded out that the path of perfection can lead to path of pure hedonism. From perfect discipline to utter insanity (save for Eidolon and a small part of the legion, so far anyway as per Path of Heaven)

 

3) Iron Hands - more due to lack of consistent portrayal, I haven't read the Shattered Legions novels so don't know how Shardrak Meduson is like, but seriously, he has to be a maverick in order to lead so many different legions. Rest of what I hear is pretty consistent with 40K interpretation: hate the flesh, machine is best, don't be like Ferrus or you'll lose your head literally. 

 

As mentioned though, the portrayal is inconsistent. The "hate flesh, machine is best, don't be like Ferrus or you'll lose your head" is consistent with the Iron Hand in Scars novel, can't remember his name. But the ones in Angel Exterminatus, although are scarred with the fate of Ferrus, still seem rational and haven't given themselves to the whole hate flesh thing yet. 

 

All this dislikes, I try to do for the legion as a whole, not just the few characters that have received plot time.

[Scribe]

1. Wolves - A consistent display of arrogance, ignorance (and supposed PRETEND ignorance), and biting off more than they can chew, while thinking (wrongly) that it makes them look impressive to anyone but those they can bully. The only saving grace, is they are put down, repeatedly, as punishment for their errors several times.

 

Despite efforts to move on, I'll NEVER get over Abnetts absolute botch job that is Prospero Burn's and the lasting legacy it left across any number of books and game supplements.

 

*spits*

 

2. Ravens - The very concept of 'Ninja Marines' is abhorrent to me, with 'true scale' a close second.

 

I almost want to say Ultra's, but they are just so damn pragmatic, I cannot hate them, but instead give a grudging respect to their 30K version.

 

Wolves and Raven's, will have to do.

[Kasper_Hawser]

1. Wolves - A consistent display of arrogance, ignorance (and supposed PRETEND ignorance), and biting off more than they can chew, while thinking (wrongly) that it makes them look impressive to anyone but those they can bully. The only saving grace, is they are put down, repeatedly, as punishment for their errors several times.

 

Despite efforts to move on, I'll NEVER get over Abnetts absolute botch job that is Prospero Burn's and the lasting legacy it left across any number of books and game supplements.

 

*spits*

 

2. Ravens - The very concept of 'Ninja Marines' is abhorrent to me, with 'true scale' a close second.

 

I almost want to say Ultra's, but they are just so damn pragmatic, I cannot hate them, but instead give a grudging respect to their 30K version.

 

Wolves and Raven's, will have to do.

 

Now now, no need to spit. we all have reasons to hate and love the legions.

 

I have to wonder why Raven Guard are always portrayed as Ninja marines.  There was certainly no room for ninja tactics on Istvaan.Infiltration yes, sneaky yes, but that's general infiltration for you. Only Sharrowkyn can arguably be called a ninja, and I think he is a special case, one of the few who managed to learn the art of shadowing in the legion.

 

My only beef with Raven Guard is similar to the iron hands, little characterization beyond Thorpe.

[Scribe]

Nah, they made a whole unit of Ninja Marines! Its so painful to me.

 

These are ~7 foot tall OUT of Armour, near 500lbs IN ARMOUR (or so its said) and you are going to tell me they will focus on stealth?!? That they can SHADOW STEP IN COMBAT?!

 

As someone who has trained with people who are only just over 6 feet tall, and well south of 250 lbs...its beyond belief to me that someone thinks MARINES IN ARMOUR should in any way conceivable be stealthy.

[Withershadow]

Most of it has to do with the authors.  I would like the Dark Angels a lot more if Gav Thorpe wasn't their dedicated guy.  Space Wolves suffer similarly from some terrible writing.  And don't get me started on Dorn's portrayals.

 

It works well in reverse too, I was never fond of Night Lords, but ADB made me appreciate them more while maintaining my loathing for their core concept. :P

[Kasper_Hawser]

Most of it has to do with the authors.  I would like the Dark Angels a lot more if Gav Thorpe wasn't their dedicated guy.  Space Wolves suffer similarly from some terrible writing.  And don't get me started on Dorn's portrayals.

 

It works well in reverse too, I was never fond of Night Lords, but ADB made me appreciate them more while maintaining my loathing for their core concept.

 

that's ADB for you. Making you love his characeters before killin gthem off two books later. :P Sigh, rest in peace, Argel Tal.

[chamberlainskeksil]

The total nonsense of santa wolf sleigh and marines riding giant wolves and murdermurder dread from the 40k release has cast a shadow on the Space Wolves that reaches back 10,000 years to the heresy era legion.

 

I totally get that it's not fair to let that influence my opinion of a legion from the heresy era, but it does.

 

"This multi-part plastic kit makes one Murderfang armed with murderclaws."

 

LOL!!!

[ShadowSwordmaster]

I'm going to say the World Eaters. That legion feels like one big shock army that they need to throw bodies at. Compare to the other legions, they feel very one-note when other legions do the same thing. Maybe I'm not looking at them in a certain way, but that is how I feel about them.

Edited January 5, 2018 by ShadowSwordmaster

[Kasper_Hawser]

I'm going to say the World Eaters. That legion feels like one big shock army that they need to throw bodies at. Compare to the other legions, they feel very one-note when other legions do the same thing. Maybe I'm not looking at them in a certain way, but that is how I feel about them.

 

Honestly I wonder how they can maintain legion numbers with an MO like that. Either their recruitment rate is super fast or Angron is more smarter than he lets on and DOES employ tactics other than rushing the enemy face. I was told it was the latter but have yet to see him actually be cunning then he lets on. 

 

Talking apart from Angron for a moment, I wonder if Curze had any good leadership or charisma. His own Night Lords seem loyal enough despite him despising his own legion. 

[Dantay VI]

They had a dedicated recruitment world on Bodt until Autek Mor dropped a moon on it :D

[Calas Typhon]

 

I'm going to say the World Eaters. That legion feels like one big shock army that they need to throw bodies at. Compare to the other legions, they feel very one-note when other legions do the same thing. Maybe I'm not looking at them in a certain way, but that is how I feel about them.

 

Honestly I wonder how they can maintain legion numbers with an MO like that. Either their recruitment rate is super fast or Angron is more smarter than he lets on and DOES employ tactics other than rushing the enemy face. I was told it was the latter but have yet to see him actually be cunning then he lets on. 

 

Talking apart from Angron for a moment, I wonder if Curze had any good leadership or charisma. His own Night Lords seem loyal enough despite him despising his own legion. 

 

 

The World Eaters recruit as the eat up and claim worlds, Its why the Legion is so diverse in the violent tribes they recruit from (Kargos, Delvarus and Shabran Darr). I would presume they work similar to the Carcharodons, taking whole generations of young, only wiping out the rest of the populace whilst doing it.

 

Curze I would presume was a decent enough Leader even as his mind degenerated over the years due to visions. I mean, compared to other Legions, the Night Lords were essentially a suppression and punishment Legion from their creation before uniting with Curze. Only when he ended up building his grimdark fortress of bones and blood did he really just crack and not really care about anything, although you could argue that the moment he really gave up with the Legion was when he ordered an assault on the Dark Angels after coming back from the coma.

 

He was taught the majority of Military strategy among other things by Fulgrim, so he had basic understandings of the military cogs of warfare on the universal scale. The Night Lords never seemed to have a major problem with cracking planets after his joining so its highly probable that they were managed and leashed by Curze very effectively. They were bloody brutal, but thorough and efficient. I mean they totally enjoyed slaughtering populace and skinning and causing terror, but you could say that it was their job. Unfortunately, we wont find much more until we get his Primarch book it seems.

 

The problem really lies with how Curze and the Legion work with others. They do not mix well with other Legions and forces, outside of the more brutal ones.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Calas Typhon

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

I'm going to say the World Eaters. That legion feels like one big shock army that they need to throw bodies at. Compare to the other legions, they feel very one-note when other legions do the same thing. Maybe I'm not looking at them in a certain way, but that is how I feel about them.

 

Honestly I wonder how they can maintain legion numbers with an MO like that. Either their recruitment rate is super fast or Angron is more smarter than he lets on and DOES employ tactics other than rushing the enemy face. I was told it was the latter but have yet to see him actually be cunning then he lets on. 

 

Talking apart from Angron for a moment, I wonder if Curze had any good leadership or charisma. His own Night Lords seem loyal enough despite him despising his own legion. 

 

 

The World Eaters recruit as the eat up and claim worlds, Its why the Legion is so diverse in the violent tribes they recruit from (Kargos, Delvarus and Shabran Darr). I would presume they work similar to the Carcharodons, taking whole generations of young, only wiping out the rest of the populace whilst doing it.

 

Curze I would presume was a decent enough Leader even as his mind degenerated over the years due to visions. I mean, compared to other Legions, the Night Lords were essentially a suppression and punishment Legion from their creation before uniting with Curze. Only when he ended up building his grimdark fortress of bones and blood did he really just crack and not really care about anything, although you could argue that the moment he really gave up with the Legion was when he ordered an assault on the Dark Angels after coming back from the coma.

 

He was taught the majority of Military strategy among other things by Fulgrim, so he had basic understandings of the military cogs of warfare on the universal scale. The Night Lords never seemed to have a major problem with cracking planets after his joining so its highly probable that they were managed and leashed by Curze very effectively. They were bloody brutal, but thorough and efficient. I mean they totally enjoyed slaughtering populace and skinning and causing terror, but you could say that it was their job. Unfortunately, we wont find much more until we get his Primarch book it seems.

 

The problem really lies with how Curze and the Legion work with others. They do not mix well with other Legions and forces, outside of the more brutal ones.

 

 

i wonder how the more brutal ones like Angron and Russ viewed them. Angron probably didn't care, while Russ would probably be mildly impressed.. Whether Russ would complain of the Night Lords MO is another thing, as despite being sneaky, they also spill a lot of blood, civilian or otherwise. But as you say, they did it efficiently.

 

Knowing GW, they'll probably give David Annandale who likes to write weird warp horror stories, to write Curze. Let's hope he does him justice apart from grimdark Space Marine Batman.

[Guest]

UM: Just hate their very vocal 10% of their community. It puts me off and the fact that Guilliman thinks so highly of Ultramar (see my quote in my sig). They seem to stomp out individuality in favor of a white canvas of nothing. Now without their fans and GW pushing it everywhere, there is nothing wrong with them for me, they just are not my type.

 

WB: Just not a fan of religious characteristics. I respect the stuff they do, just not a fan of preaching and praying.

 

1kSons: difficult to describe, just something feels off when I read them. Maybe its just my gut instinct toward magic users (all magic users in all games I have disliked)

 

SW: Even as a SW player it is a love/hate relationship. I dispise the wulfen, I rather liked it when they were a curse and nothing else. They would be used as suicide troops and were considered a disgrace. The Leman Russ novel nails it down for me. I like the noble viking/nordic/germanic/barbarian theme and I realize that it is not everyones flavor. I do think though that there are several books that discredit them due to how heavilly handed they are written.

 

WE&NL: I should read more about them before judging them, but they are just a bit too bloodthirsty for me. 

 

and thats it. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Caldersson

[Calas Typhon]

 

 

 

i wonder how the more brutal ones like Angron and Russ viewed them. Angron probably didn't care, while Russ would probably be mildly impressed.. Whether Russ would complain of the Night Lords MO is another thing, as despite being sneaky, they also spill a lot of blood, civilian or otherwise. But as you say, they did it efficiently.

 

Knowing GW, they'll probably give David Annandale who likes to write weird warp horror stories, to write Curze. Let's hope he does him justice apart from grimdark Space Marine Batman.

 

 

Well Angron did not really care for any of his brothers as far as we know. He no doubt had respect for how they made war for some of them like Horus, but he hated the vast majority of them. Its kind of why he was actually feeling quite mixed about getting close to Lorgar when he realised that Lorgar actually cared for his fate. I doubt he would like the toying and torture as its not exactly a direct way of warfare. 

 

He would more than likely think Curze a coward. 

[Marshal Rohr]

It bears pointing out that every legion has facets worth liking and exploring in the Horus Heresy Black Books. While the BL series leaves so much to be desired aside from ADB and a few others, if you only use the black books as a guide for your army you can create something really personal and unique.

[rendingon1+]

Almost every legion is better without BL books, only FW ones. White Scars are an exception of course, though Wright can write about anything and make it awesome (SW,DA,DG,EC).

Edited January 8, 2018 by rendingon1+

[Biscuittzz]

 

Can't put my finger on what exactly pissed me off about the Legion, but I think it is Corax. In every entry in the Black Library, he comes across as either too close to the meme nevermore emo, or just a spoiled piece of . The Legion needs more of a showing in the stories rather than lots and lots of Corax. At the end of Ravenlord when the marine blows his brains against the wall, I came away thinking that the Marine had a far far better backstory than Corax ever had and found it bloody hard to side with Corax. 

 

I don't even mind the Nykona Sharrowkin stuff, its stupid beyond reason in some cases, but it works better on me than Corax does.

 

This 100%. The entire RG horus heresy arc is entirely based on Corax and/or from his viewpoint almost. In one aspect it's quite good as we've always wanted to get insights into what the Primarchs are actually thinking but when that is the ONLY arc it gets boring...fast. There should be some mystique left around the Primarchs to maintain that demi-god status, with Corax there is nothing left to the imagination. We practically know his life pre-GC, during GC and post GC/HH. Name another Primarch that shares that attribute. There is very little on the legion themselves.

 

My favourite part of RG writing was the part in Weregeld were the legion forces, albeit diminished post-Istvaan, are depicted striking at Yarant using their much heralded tactics. The depiction actually shows their propensity for infiltration/reconnaissance in force using Mor Deythan followed by target assassinations and gunship assaults alongside strike and fade tactics. In all......less than 5 pages out of hundreds of Raven Guard literature from BL, or Thorpe more accurately. The rest is all Corax centred.

 

The afterword in that book really irked me. Thorpe basically said that the plan was to always have had the arc done across a number of novellas and shorts, rather than 1-2 large novels like others, which is actually fine. In the end all we got were novellas and shorts on Corax not the RG. 

 

Leaving the topic of RG/ Corax behind, I think one of the problems in fleshing out the legions is that there is just too many. 20 (18 really) probably sounded acceptable when very little fluff was being written about them at the very start of GW. Once they needed to be defined properly that's were problems occured, and the whole mirroring of loyalist to traitors looks like they ran out of ideas imo. All of the legions were created for some aspect of war, this is fleshed out well for some, but left very vague for others. I'll give a few examples of legions I think fall into these categories:

 

Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors:

 

One's good defending and the other at attacking? Surely if you're good at defending it's because you have an innate understanding of attacking and how opponents will attack your weaknesses? Vice versa for defending. I see no reason why a single legion could have been the siege warfare specialists ( both offensive and defensive). These two fall into the 'we need mirrors' section.

 

Raven Guard/ Night Lords/ Alpha Legion:

 

I don't see how the RG and NL can be substantially differentiated as both have propensities for infiltration/ shock assaults/ terror tactics/ subtlety. Again they fall into the mirrors part. Regarding the AL, their entire modus operandi is infiltration/ stealth / assassination which is only a sub-set of the RG's skill set. RG are differentiated when you factor in the additional traits from above compared to the AL.

 

Emperor's Children:

 

EC are written as combining martial expertise with the ability to wage all-theatre/combined arms warfare. I thought martial prowess was the Blood Angels gig and the UM have always been kings of combined arms warfare? To me it seems Emperor's Children were always written from the pride/ fall to Slaanesh aspect, and their actual reason for existing in the overall war effort was hastily written after.

 

Iron Hands:

 

What are the IH actually used for in terms of warfare that the Death Guard and Iron Warriors don't already do? They are written as logical, unyielding and tempered warriors but the same is practically true for the DG and IW. If you need a fortress cracked open you send the IW, if you need a world liberated without a shot fired or the least collateral damage you send the RG or AL. Attrition warfare? DG or again the IW. Want a world erased from existence? WE. Combined arms and tactical? UM/ SoH/ BA/ DA/ EC.

 

In what case are the Iron Hands sent in? Again the writing in my opinion has failed to give an inkling to this. Ferrus Manus was said to be the next best general after Horus, but that's what sets him apart, not the IH.

 

Space Wolves:

 

Take away the nordic/viking theme and they're...........World Eaters? Remove both legion names and the names of their Primarchs and you practically have carbon copies of each other. Angron sent to censure the TS instead? Basically same outcome. Having Angron stay loyal and leaving Terra against the advice of Dorn to attack Horus before he reaches Terra is practically the same as Russ doing it. We'd just have a black library book called 'Hound Cull' rather than 'Wolf Cull'.

 

I'm not having a pop at anyone's legions ( sure I put the RG down) but I think whereas some are really well thought of and fleshed out, others are left with a lot of gaps to fill. Which in my opinion is GW biting off more than it can chew and comprehensively fleshing out every single legion where there are no mirror images or severe overlap with others and where it gets to the point of asking 'What do we need this legion for?' or 'Why would the Emperor waste time making another legion when he could have just added their numbers to an already existing one that does the same job?'

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ Biscuitz - In regards to Space Wolves, I strongly deny the notion that they are world eaters in disguise. Their MO is hardly "rush everything and kill everything" with no other variation or plan. Otherwise, during the war with the Oelitic Quietude (Prospero Burns)....

 

 

...... they would simply have rushed and killed everything rather than dropping a space station on them.

 

 

Bear in mind guys, just because some legions are NOT well character developed, doesn't mean they are not likeable or we can't connect with them. In the end, even Angron is more relateable than the golden bananas that are the Custodes and their head banana, the Emperor.

[Kizzdougs]

 

Leaving the topic of RG/ Corax behind, I think one of the problems in fleshing out the legions is that there is just too many. 20 (18 really) probably sounded acceptable when very little fluff was being written about them at the very start of GW. Once they needed to be defined properly that's were problems occured, and the whole mirroring of loyalist to traitors looks like they ran out of ideas imo. All of the legions were created for some aspect of war, this is fleshed out well for some, but left very vague for others. I'll give a few examples of legions I think fall into these categories:

 

Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors:

 

One's good defending and the other at attacking? Surely if you're good at defending it's because you have an innate understanding of attacking and how opponents will attack your weaknesses? Vice versa for defending. I see no reason why a single legion could have been the siege warfare specialists ( both offensive and defensive). These two fall into the 'we need mirrors' section.

 

Both Legions are excellent at defending and attacking defensive positions; it’s just that most people portray the Iron Warriors as the attackers and the Imperial Fists as the defenders because of the roles that they played at the Siege of Terra. There are numerous examples of the Iron Warriors’ defensive capabilities such as at the Iron Cage, the Schadenhold, and at Paramar. The fact that the Iron Warriors had to garrison and hold/defend so many backwater and extremely dangerous worlds (and didn’t receive the plaudits they felt they deserved) was a major factor behind the Legion’s bitterness and Perturabo’s jealousy (of his more celebrated brothers).

 

On the other hand Boarding Actions (a space siege if you like) and Stronghold Assaults are listed as Observed Strategic Tendencies of the Imperial Fists.

 

So you're right that both Legions were skilled at both defensive and offensive siege actions.

 

 

Raven Guard/ Night Lords/ Alpha Legion:

 

I don't see how the RG and NL can be substantially differentiated as both have propensities for infiltration/ shock assaults/ terror tactics/ subtlety. Again they fall into the mirrors part. Regarding the AL, their entire modus operandi is infiltration/ stealth / assassination which is only a sub-set of the RG's skill set. RG are differentiated when you factor in the additional traits from above compared to the AL.

 

Sure, the Alpha Legion, Raven Guard, and Night Lords are all experts in asymmetric warfare, but they go about it from very different angles.

 

The Observed Strategic Tendencies of the Night Lords were; punitive actions, decimation, enforced pacification, terror assaults, and psychological warfare.

 

The Observed Strategic Tendencies of the Raven Guard were; rapid deployment operations, strategic interdiction operations, reconnaissance in force, guerrilla actions, and low-collateral damage imperative compliance operations.

 

The Observed Strategic Tendencies of the Alpha Legion were; Surprise assault, sabotage, infiltration, insurgency and counter-insurgency warfare, multi-vector attack, interplanetary pursuit and decimation campaigns, and deep-range raiding operations.

 

So yes, they all clearly have a preference for asymmetric warfare, but the execution and focus of those operations were as diverse as the list of strategies themselves.

 

Emperor's Children:

 

EC are written as combining martial expertise with the ability to wage all-theatre/combined arms warfare. I thought martial prowess was the Blood Angels gig and the UM have always been kings of combined arms warfare? To me it seems Emperor's Children were always written from the pride/ fall to Slaanesh aspect, and their actual reason for existing in the overall war effort was hastily written after.

 

Martial prowess is also a Dark Angels thing and it’s also an Imperial Fists thing. Shouldn’t martial prowess/excellence be something that every Legion of post-human super-killers aspires to? If only one Legion focused on marital prowess wouldn’t that be a bit strange?

 

The Dark Angels are also a prime example of a combined arms Legion. The fact that there are several Legions that could be considered combined arms/all rounders is probably more down to the fact that that is what the Legions were supposed to be (all rounders) with some exceptions such as the members of the Trefoil (Space Wolves, Salamanders, and Alpha Legion) and perhaps the Thousand Sons. It’s only natural that there are several Legions that follow the more standard lines of the Principia Belicosa. In fact I think it would be even stranger if the Ultramarines were the only combined arms Legion.

 

Then again, all of the Legions had the capabilities necessary to perform combined arms warfare; it’s just that some Legions deviated from the standard pattern more than others.

For example, book three; Extermination says this about the Raven Guard:

 

While retaining its expertise in stealth and infiltration, the XIXth integrated formations of battle tanks, super-heavy war machines, artillery, assault vehicles and fleet assets, mastering each with the skill engineered into them by the genius of the Emperor. para. 2, page 137.

 

Though best known for the skills of its warriors in rapid assault, reconnaissance and infiltration protocols, the Raven Guard Legion possessed and utilised the full range of engines of war produced for the Legiones Astartes by the genius of the Mechanicum. The Raven Guard maintained entire battalions of heavy armour of all types, the Legion Armoury and Fleet Reserve held hundreds more, and individual companies were assigned individual war engines as and when required. para 1, page 146. 

 

Does this mean that the Raven Guard are a combined arms Legion?

 

Iron Hands:

 

What are the IH actually used for in terms of warfare that the Death Guard and Iron Warriors don't already do? They are written as logical, unyielding and tempered warriors but the same is practically true for the DG and IW. If you need a fortress cracked open you send the IW, if you need a world liberated without a shot fired or the least collateral damage you send the RG or AL. Attrition warfare? DG or again the IW. Want a world erased from existence? WE. Combined arms and tactical? UM/ SoH/ BA/ DA/ EC.

 

In what case are the Iron Hands sent in? Again the writing in my opinion has failed to give an inkling to this. Ferrus Manus was said to be the next best general after Horus, but that's what sets him apart, not the IH.

 

I agree that the Iron Hands have suffered from a lack of coverage (Shattered Legions don’t count) and I’ve got my fingers crossed that the Ferrus manus Primarch novel will give us a better tastes of the Legion in general.

 

Having said that, why does it matter that they’re able to perform similar roles to the Death Guard and Iron Warriors? The galaxy is a big place and the DG and IW can’t be everywhere. It’s not like the Emperor (or any Imperial Commander) just rocked up to a world, gave it a quick scan to see which Legion would be best suited to the task, get the relevant Primarch on the telephone and have him shoot his Legion halfway across the galaxy, just because his Legion was the best suited to taking a particular world. This would only happen in the most extreme circumstance and would probably involve the pacification of a particularly deadly/dangerous xenos empire, not a single world or fortress. It’s useful to have several Legions that specialise in smashing particularly tough/dangerous opponents, and given the strategic tendencies of the Iron Hands they’d be more than capable of doing nearly anything the Iron Warriors or Death Guard could do.

 

The Observed Strategic Tendencies of the Iron hands were; armoured and high intensity warfare, line-breaker attacks, planetary pacification and suppression campaigns, and anti-material operations.

 

Space Wolves:

 

Take away the nordic/viking theme and they're...........World Eaters? Remove both legion names and the names of their Primarchs and you practically have carbon copies of each other. Angron sent to censure the TS instead? Basically same outcome. Having Angron stay loyal and leaving Terra against the advice of Dorn to attack Horus before he reaches Terra is practically the same as Russ doing it. We'd just have a black library book called 'Hound Cull' rather than 'Wolf Cull'.

 

You’d also have to remove the Nails from the World Eaters and if you did that you’d have removed two of the most significant aspects of the two Legions, the Butcher’s Nails of the World Eaters and the Ferisian culture of the Space Wolves. That’s kind of like saying that because both have a bat and a ball, cricket and baseball are the same sport if you take away all of their different rules…

 

Again, just because two or more Legions have a similar approach to warfare doesn’t mean that they’re poorly thought out or lacking in detail.

 

I'm not having a pop at anyone's legions ( sure I put the RG down) but I think whereas some are really well thought of and fleshed out, others are left with a lot of gaps to fill. Which in my opinion is GW biting off more than it can chew and comprehensively fleshing out every single legion where there are no mirror images or severe overlap with others and where it gets to the point of asking 'What do we need this legion for?' or 'Why would the Emperor waste time making another legion when he could have just added their numbers to an already existing one that does the same job?'

 

It feels like you’re only looking at the Legions from a Black Library perspective. Unfortunately the Black Library novels don’t really capture the full scale, character and capabilities of the Legions because they tend to focus on the perspective of only a handful of characters and their experience of the most pivotal/extreme events of the Crusade/Heresy.

 

Have you read the Forgeworld Black Books? They do a great job of fleshing out the Legions in a way that the Black Library novels aren’t able to without be twice the length that they already are.

[Biscuittzz]

Excellent response @Kizzdougs.

 

Yes I have read all the black books. Maybe I didn't get it across properly or as eloquently as I would have liked but my main point was that I feel GW/FW probably have too much overlap or grey area with some legions that leads to a real difficulty in detailing a legion without threading on another's toes. It's not exactly a bad thing really just I can see why it can lead to topics like this on why people feel some legions are disliked etc.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Heck, it may even lead to diagreements on legions that we DO like based on what was written in the Black books, which I admittedly don't have. As a Space Wolf player and fan, I'm still very much confused, bemused or otherwise have mixed feelings on pre-heresy wolves. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Excellent response @Kizzdougs.

 

Yes I have read all the black books. Maybe I didn't get it across properly or as eloquently as I would have liked but my main point was that I feel GW/FW probably have too much overlap or grey area with some legions that leads to a real difficulty in detailing a legion without threading on another's toes. It's not exactly a bad thing really just I can see why it can lead to topics like this on why people feel some legions are disliked etc.

Almost every reason people like or dislike a Legion has been tied to a trope or portrayal. What we need is some Raven Guard armored companies and Death guard recon team stories to really drive home that every legion could do everything.

[m_r_parker]

In defence of the Iron Warriors, there’s a lot in the FW books that really flesh out the Legion and the reasons for their resentment of other Legions (especially the Imperial Fists, who are very similar in a lot of ways)

 

The main raison d’etre for the Iron Warriors turns out to be the force that cracks the defensive points that even other Legions can’t overcome. As a result a lot of their conflicts are heavily protracted sieges against well defended opponents, resulting in huge losses on both sides - all the while the Legion who originally came up against this force has gone on to achieve other, simpler compliance’s without incurring the losses that the IVth have had to endure. When you put on top that the IVth have one of the best compliance ratios in the Great Crusade, it’s actually amazing that the majority of their victories come fr M campaigns that other Legions couldn’t or wouldn’t complete. It’s a thankless job in the end, and you can understand why they would become bitter when all they’re seen to be good for is this brutal type of warfare, which just happens to be the one that they excel at. Then compare them to the Imperial Fists, who are seen to be a Legion with a similar skill set (but technically the mirror image) but get a greater share of plaudits and praise for not having to do what the IVth do.

 

By then again, sometimes the FW books do a greater job of fleshing out the character of the Legions than some of the BL novels. I certainly count the Iron Warriors amongst some of the more interesting Legions because of this.

[Calas Typhon]

 

Almost every reason people like or dislike a Legion has been tied to a trope or portrayal. What we need is some Raven Guard armored companies and Death guard recon team stories to really drive home that every legion could do everything.

 

 

Thankfully the DG have been shown to have a skill with stealth and subtlety to an extent, unfortunately it has not really been touched upon with recon, AFAIR there were mentions of them during Flight of the Eisenstein having sharpshooters, and there was a picture of a recon marine in a black book?. It really is a shame most legions are really ran into certain roads rather than expanded on. I would love a Death Guard short about a tank battle, or an infiltration mission like the Imperial Fist Tallarn one.

 

Doubt you would have that unless you go into fan made stories.

[Gorgoff]

Just read the story about the Paramar fight in book 3. You'll love the Iron Warriors after that. Edited January 13, 2018 by Gorgoff