Articulate your reasons for not liking certain legions

[Kasper_Hawser]

Just read the story about the Paramar fight in book 3. You'll love the Iron Warriors after that.

 

Angel Exterminatus isn't half bad about the Iron Warriors either. Even if the plot is really weird. Perturabo is actually quite respectable. This is somehow contrasted with the Battle of Phall short story where he was depicted as mercurial and randomly angry. In Angel Exterminatus, yes he had a fiery temper but it was tempered with cold reason.

 

 

Main example of his brutal but logical temper, was when he stripped one of his Triarchs (trio of personal advisors), off his rank and armour, literally in the latter case. He ranted to the whole legion the reasons how that Triarch had failed him and why he was being demoted and humiliated. He then proceeded to promote a line sapper, not even a Warsmith in rank and skill, into a Triarch for the sole reason that the line warrior had succeeded in spite of the triarch's failed battle plan. 

 

Subsequently, that Triarch (Kroeger I think his name), proceeded to tempt the wrath of his primarch several times with his bluntness which Perturabo actually listened.

 

 

Funnily enough in Angel Exterminatus, not one mention was made of the supposed jealousy of the Imperial Fists and Rogal Dorn, or the burning of Olympia. In fact, the book never touched on Perturabo's motivations at all. Still, it was a good book to me, although I'm surprised so many people don't like Sharrowkyn which I thought was awesome.

[Calas Typhon]

 

Angel Exterminatus isn't half bad about the Iron Warriors either. Even if the plot is really weird. Perturabo is actually quite respectable. This is somehow contrasted with the Battle of Phall short story where he was depicted as mercurial and randomly angry. In Angel Exterminatus, yes he had a fiery temper but it was tempered with cold reason.

 

I think to date, my favourite piece on the Iron Warriors was Tallarn Ironclad. I love AE and the Iron Warriors involved, especially Kroeger and the in depth description of Perturabo. 

 

But Perturabo had a fantastic showing in Ironclad, the Iron Warriors involved were all dealt with well, From the Centurion/Captain who I can't remember the name of to the group of Iron Warriors who were on stronghold guard capturing the Son of Horus and guarding him. The Dreadnaught was pretty damn great too. 

Anyone who is looking for Iron Warriors fluff and is not sure on them, definitely give Ironclad a go. For one, its not really from the perspective of the Iron Warriors, they are just a background set of characters with exception of the Dreadnaught which I honestly believe is the best way to show a Legion.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Calas Typhon

[Gorgoff]

 

 

 

Angel Exterminatus isn't half bad about the Iron Warriors either. Even if the plot is really weird. Perturabo is actually quite respectable. This is somehow contrasted with the Battle of Phall short story where he was depicted as mercurial and randomly angry. In Angel Exterminatus, yes he had a fiery temper but it was tempered with cold reason.

I think to date, my favourite piece on the Iron Warriors was Tallarn Ironclad. I love AE and the Iron Warriors involved, especially Kroeger and the in depth description of Perturabo.

 

But Perturabo had a fantastic showing in Ironclad, the Iron Warriors involved were all dealt with well, From the Centurion/Captain who I can't remember the name of to the group of Iron Warriors who were on stronghold guard capturing the Son of Horus and guarding him. The Dreadnaught was pretty damn great too.

Anyone who is looking for Iron Warriors fluff and is not sure on them, definitely give Ironclad a go. For one, its not really from the perspective of the Iron Warriors, they are just a background set of characters with exception of the Dreadnaught which I honestly believe is the best way to show a Legion.

Ok, I'll give it a shot. ;)

[Withershadow]

 

 

Angel Exterminatus isn't half bad about the Iron Warriors either. Even if the plot is really weird. Perturabo is actually quite respectable. This is somehow contrasted with the Battle of Phall short story where he was depicted as mercurial and randomly angry. In Angel Exterminatus, yes he had a fiery temper but it was tempered with cold reason.

 

I think to date, my favourite piece on the Iron Warriors was Tallarn Ironclad. I love AE and the Iron Warriors involved, especially Kroeger and the in depth description of Perturabo. 

 

But Perturabo had a fantastic showing in Ironclad, the Iron Warriors involved were all dealt with well, From the Centurion/Captain who I can't remember the name of to the group of Iron Warriors who were on stronghold guard capturing the Son of Horus and guarding him. The Dreadnaught was pretty damn great too. 

Anyone who is looking for Iron Warriors fluff and is not sure on them, definitely give Ironclad a go. For one, its not really from the perspective of the Iron Warriors, they are just a background set of characters with exception of the Dreadnaught which I honestly believe is the best way to show a Legion.

 

Perturabo's Primarch book pretty much put his character to rest, even his sister had to tell him to man up. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

He had a sister on Olympia? That would make Perturabo the second Primarch I know who actually grew up with a female family member, the first I know of being Guilliman's adoptive mother.

[Kizzdougs]

He had a sister on Olympia? That would make Perturabo the second Primarch I know who actually grew up with a female family member, the first I know of being Guilliman's adoptive mother.

Fulgrim had an adopted mother too.

[Gorgoff]

 

 

He had a sister on Olympia? That would make Perturabo the second Primarch I know who actually grew up with a female family member, the first I know of being Guilliman's adoptive mother.

Fulgrim had an adopted mother too.

Kurze killed a lot of Mothers... ;)

[Calas Typhon]

@withershadow

 

Quality information, really informative for the discussion and totally not bait.

 

Perturabo's adopted family is a major part in the iron warriors fluff.

[Kasper_Hawser]

@withershadow

 

Quality information, really informative for the discussion and totally not bait.

 

Perturabo's adopted family is a major part in the iron warriors fluff.

 

You mean his adoptive father who didn't exactly like him but raised him anyway, and then later rebelled forcing Perturabo to subjugate his own planet?

 

Does his Primarch novel describe this relationship?

 

Also Tallarn Ironclad, what is the story mainly about apart from one of the biggest tank battles in 40K? Does it also develop the Iron Warriors well apart from being jealous glory hogs?

[Calas Typhon]

 

@withershadow

 

Quality information, really informative for the discussion and totally not bait.

 

Perturabo's adopted family is a major part in the iron warriors fluff.

You mean his adoptive father who didn't exactly like him but raised him anyway, and then later rebelled forcing Perturabo to subjugate his own planet?

 

Does his Primarch novel describe this relationship?

 

Also Tallarn Ironclad, what is the story mainly about apart from one of the biggest tank battles in 40K? Does it also develop the Iron Warriors well apart from being jealous glory hogs?

The book goes into detail on the relationships of him and his family, including a few in house political problems.

 

It's mainly about sections of the loyalist and traitor forces finding the true reason why the iron warriors are on tallarn. You do find out. Although it's not fully expanded on and it highlights the relationship between perturabo and the forces he has lined himself with.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Calas Typhon

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

@withershadow

 

Quality information, really informative for the discussion and totally not bait.

 

Perturabo's adopted family is a major part in the iron warriors fluff.

You mean his adoptive father who didn't exactly like him but raised him anyway, and then later rebelled forcing Perturabo to subjugate his own planet?

 

Does his Primarch novel describe this relationship?

 

Also Tallarn Ironclad, what is the story mainly about apart from one of the biggest tank battles in 40K? Does it also develop the Iron Warriors well apart from being jealous glory hogs?

The book goes into detail on the relationships of him and his family, including a few in house political problems.

 

It's mainly about sections of the loyalist and traitor forces finding the true reason why the iron warriors are on tallarn. You do find out. Although it's not fully expanded on and it highlights the relationship between perturabo and the forces he has lined himself with.

 

 

Now I'm interested in both books, but I think I'll start with the Primarch novel first. 

 

Regardless, Perturabo and his iron warriors are definitely NOT on my least liked Legions. I still think the damn peacocks of the 3rd take the cake. From most disciplined to the most insane.

[Withershadow]

@withershadow

Quality information, really informative for the discussion and totally not bait.

Perturabo's adopted family is a major part in the iron warriors fluff.

Any more would be a spoiler, I couldn’t agree with her more and she tagged him dead on, that’s why

he strangled her and then cried like a girl about it

.

[LilShah]

 

@withershadow

Quality information, really informative for the discussion and totally not bait.

Perturabo's adopted family is a major part in the iron warriors fluff.

Any more would be a spoiler, I couldn’t agree with her more and she tagged him dead on, that’s why

he strangled her and then cried like a girl about it

.

Don’t forget

 

He first boasts about his own supposed immortality as well as his achievements, trying to vindicate her. With all that frustration boiling within him he wants Persephone to give him a reason to kill her.

Edited January 15, 2018 by LilShah

[Amun Ra]

 

 

 

 

@withershadow

 

Quality information, really informative for the discussion and totally not bait.

 

Perturabo's adopted family is a major part in the iron warriors fluff.

You mean his adoptive father who didn't exactly like him but raised him anyway, and then later rebelled forcing Perturabo to subjugate his own planet?

 

Does his Primarch novel describe this relationship?

 

Also Tallarn Ironclad, what is the story mainly about apart from one of the biggest tank battles in 40K? Does it also develop the Iron Warriors well apart from being jealous glory hogs?

The book goes into detail on the relationships of him and his family, including a few in house political problems.

 

It's mainly about sections of the loyalist and traitor forces finding the true reason why the iron warriors are on tallarn. You do find out. Although it's not fully expanded on and it highlights the relationship between perturabo and the forces he has lined himself with.

Now I'm interested in both books, but I think I'll start with the Primarch novel first.

 

Regardless, Perturabo and his iron warriors are definitely NOT on my least liked Legions. I still think the damn peacocks of the 3rd take the cake. From most disciplined to the most insane.

Perturabo's primarch book is well worth a read. Possibly my favourite so far alongside Leman Russ.

 

I don't think there is any legion I actively dislike. Alpha legion mainly for the way they have been depicted in BL books, but I love their scheme and model range so far.

[Jamafore]

My issue with most of the chaos legions is really this: How in the  did they think going to chaos was anything other than a bad idea?

 

You have other-dimensional gribblies who want your worship, ok fine.

 

Their worship involves sacrificing millions of screaming humans, you know the species you're trying to make the dominant force in the galaxy, then wearing their skins and parading around whatever sector you're in at the time while screaming yourself from who knows how many mouths, waving who knows how many arms/tentacles/other bitz that shall not be mentioned in a family friendly place, yeeeeeeeeeeea no.

 

Beyond that:

 

Night Lords: I really have never liked the whole "terror force" aspect of the Night Lords. I can see it as an effective tactic (in the short term at least), but not a guiding principal for a legion. And after a few years when Kurze started going bonkers, I'd really question him having command of anything, much less 100,000+ super soldiers.

 

World Eaters: The legion itself I like, but Angron seems to have had issues from the start. Why put him in a command position at all? Though that theoretically could have been changed a little bit with how the Emperor recruited him and the rage machine in his head.....why spread that thing to the entire legion again?

 

Word Bearers: This ones a little harder to pin down. I guess the fanatic part turns me off of them, but also Lorgar letting Erebus and Kor Phearon lead him down the chaos path so meekly. Kor Phearon I can see at least having some hold on him, having raised him and all, but I don't think I have read anything about Erebus having any sort of history with Lorgar that would give him that much pull. Along with Erebus being the cliched mostache twirling villian. I mean anybody just looking at him could probably see he's up to no good.

[Calas Typhon]

My issue with most of the chaos legions is really this: How in the  did they think going to chaos was anything other than a bad idea?

 

You have other-dimensional gribblies who want your worship, ok fine.

 

Their worship involves sacrificing millions of screaming humans, you know the species you're trying to make the dominant force in the galaxy, then wearing their skins and parading around whatever sector you're in at the time while screaming yourself from who knows how many mouths, waving who knows how many arms/tentacles/other bitz that shall not be mentioned in a family friendly place, yeeeeeeeeeeea no.

 

You're told from the start that there is no God and no Gods, you fight to create an Imperium for the better of humanity and almost achieve it. 

 

Suddenly you come to the realisation (true or not) that the Emperor who you took to war in name and forged an Empire for is now trying to become a God. You then hear that there are Gods as old as recorded time as far as you are aware, real gods that effect humanity and are directly linked, including what happens after death. On one hand you have an Emperor who is now a hypocrite in your eyes, in the other, you have real Gods who have the power over your soul, actions and can physically improve you for the better. The Legions of Chaos were some most self reliant and most dedicated to personal strength. If the new Gods can improve the individual, where as the previous God is about the benefit of all others. I would perfectly understand Chaos being a valid path to take to improve humanity considering the mindsets of the Legions.

[Amun Ra]

Aside from Lorgar, none really knew what they were getting into either.

 

Horus, injured on Davin and corrupted while healing

Magnus, tricked by tzeentch years ago, then screws up and has to side with traitors to survive.

Angron, just hated the emperor

Mortarion, saw the emperor as a tyrant to be overthrown

Perturabo, long bitter, snapped after Olympia

Fulgrim, picked up a deamon weapon for some reason..

Curze, already gone nuts by this point

Alpharius, thought he was doing right thing?

 

All simplified of course

[Kasper_Hawser]

Easier said than done, but it feels like most of them actually had a chance to turn back from the current timeline but then again, hindsight is 20 20 so can hardly judge them at the time, especially those who had no idea about the warp. 

 

@ Typhon - yeah Word bearers really lame too just because they have god to believe in.

[Calas Typhon]

 

@ Typhon - yeah Word bearers really lame too just because they have god to believe in.

 

I can't seem to follow what you mean. Do you mean that they are lame because they have to believe in a God? or because they believe in Gods?

[Mogsam]

I'm not overly fond of several of the legions. I think it's important to preface that I've had very little exposure to the books outside of some of the big black ones, so this is mostly based off older IA knowledge. I did read a few, but felt they were so sub par that they actually ruined it for me a bit!

 

I tend to come down on the pro traitor side, but only because I enjoy my characters as shades of grey! 

 

Dark Angels - I've just never really been that much of a fan of them. They have a dull colour scheme and Lionel hasn't really been that interesting for me. The knights in space hasn't really inspired very much!

 

Imperial Fists - They're a bit generic for me, they're basically the good version of the iron warriors - who I really like for their begrudging sad story. Rogal holds no interest for me. It's a shame really as I love painting yellow, so it is particularly painful that they aren't that interesting.

 

Ultramarines - If the Imperial Fists are too generic then the Ultramarines are the same problem but increased. I do like Roboutes early story with the roman elements and the whole mini empire thing, but overall I think he's a bit meh. GW's love of them hasn't helped.

 

Salamanders - They don't really have a background to speak off for me. They like fire, they're pro humanity, but they aren't too exciting.

 

Raven Guard - I'm on board until the whole super marine thing where they Alpha Legion break the plan up. Ruins both legions for me. I enjoyed Coraxs origin story!

 

Alpha Legion - Too many things work too well. I actually really liked them - until I read one of their Heresy books which was a travesty of literature. Alpharius's old intro was cool with breaking into the Luna Wolf ship, but that has apparently been semi retconned for convoluted nonsense reasons. Basically, they'd be great if their convoluted story involvement wasn't a thing.

 

Blood Angels - Not a fan, but I'm never a massive fan of the overly heroic characters like Sang. 

 

Emperors Children - I actually do love their old fluff and colour scheme, but their story now is trash.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

@ Typhon - yeah Word bearers really lame too just because they have god to believe in.

 

I can't seem to follow what you mean. Do you mean that they are lame because they have to believe in a God? or because they believe in Gods?

 

 

Yikes, how did that typo happen? what I meant was, the whole reason they turned traitor was because they WANTED to believe in gods when the Emperor finally put his foot down and said he wasn't to be worshipped. Compared to other Legions who were, dare i say, more badly mistreated or misunderstood, like the Iron Warriors who were given garrison duty all the time and no honours accompanying them, or the Night Lords and World Eaters who were chatised for EXACTLY what they were good at. Even the Space Wolves and White Scars I can consider them marginalised due to their odd reputations and MOs, and would have better reasons for going traitor, Jagathai wasn't even on good terms with the Emperor if the Scars novels are anything to go by. 

 

Actually to me, the Thousand Sons would have the best reason to rebel if the Emperor just planned to have them slaughtered like the Thunderwarriors, if the webway project had been realised and psykers no longer needed. Ironically, they were actually loyal even as they were conned into chaos.

 

Word Bearers? Where were their scars of injustice? Just one world chatised and they all go traitor. sorry, I guess I'm not being very articulate about it, but something just tells me that the Word Bearers excuse for going traitor was lame.

 

To be fair, Mortarion's reason for going traitor was lame as well due to his hatred of psykers, never mind that all the Primarchs are made of warp stuff. But at least he wasn't whiny about it unlike Lorgar.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

To be fair, Mortarion's reason for going traitor was lame as well due to his hatred of psykers, never mind that all the Primarchs are made of warp stuff. But at least he wasn't whiny about it unlike Lorgar.

 

Have the BL books butchered Mortarion now too? His classic reason wasn't so much 'I hate Psykers', but rather wounded pride and distaste for the Emperor. He never got over his ultimate failure on Barbarus, being unable to defeat his adopted 'father' and being saved, against his will, by the Emperor. Then along comes Horus, who'd always been solid and treated him well, with a better offer. Like with classic Fulgrim (pride leading to fall thanks to a friend turned silver tongued master manipulator vs 'I picked up this talking sword, I are smart!'), it's a very human fall, and paints Horus as a dangerous, charismatic and smart big bad, which is important if the Heresy narrative is to ring 'true'.

[bluntblade]

Hatred for psykers was simply another ingredient in Mortarion's character, and he thought the matter was settled by Nikaea and Prospero. Then came Isstvan V, with heaps of his allies demonstrating Warp corruption.

 

Mortarion's motivation remains the same, Scars makes that clear. He despises the Emperor and talks about "a Galaxy of hunters, where the strong are given their freedom".

 

The Word Bearers' whole worldview was rear-ended by Monarchia. The symbolism of it mattered more than the deed. Kor Phaeron and Erebus were waiting for their chance to corrupt the Legion, and the Ruinous Powers went all-out with their efforts to bring the WB on side. It's far, far more nuanced than "boo hoo our city, we're turning evil now".

Edited January 24, 2018 by bluntblade

[Kasper_Hawser]

Hatred for psykers was simply another ingredient in Mortarion's character, and he thought the matter was settled by Nikaea and Prospero. Then came Isstvan V, with heaps of his allies demonstrating Warp corruption.

 

Mortarion's motivation remains the same, Scars makes that clear. He despises the Emperor and talks about "a Galaxy of hunters, where the strong are given their freedom".

 

The Word Bearers' whole worldview was rear-ended by Monarchia. The symbolism of it mattered more than the deed. Kor Phaeron and Erebus were waiting for their chance to corrupt the Legion, and the Ruinous Powers went all-out with their efforts to bring the WB on side. It's far, far more nuanced than "boo hoo our city, we're turning evil now".

 

didn't mean to simplify the Word Bearers like that, I like I mention its hard for me to articulate it well.

 

Instead of "boo hoo our city, we're turning evil now", it's more like "boo hoo our Emperor who never said he was a god but we all want him to be a god, told us he isn't a god and if we don't stop worshipping him, we'll be erased from imperial history. so we need new gods, even if they are many armed tentacled eternal damnation types.."

 

In regards to Mortarion, actually the poor guy doesn't have any dedicated characterization beyond the whole Darwinist and anti-psyker outlook. And even as far as psykers is concerned, he is fairly inconsistent with some books he unleashed the powers of the warp, whereas in others, like Path to Heaven, he firmly forbid the use of warpcraft among his legion, though not to Eidolon, whom he considered a co-commander. In the end, we can only see those two facets and its rather boring.

 

Sometimes I wonder if the story of him coming to the aid of the humans of Barbarus against the necromancers is even true given his distaste for the "weak". Granted he may consider the necromancer who are probably psykers cheating so maybe he thought he even the scales. But to do that, he must have a sense of justice in the first place, which so far I don't see in his few books.

 

One thing for certain, like Perturabo, he is certainly one of the logical and sane primarchs compared to the rest of the lunatics.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Hatred for psykers was simply another ingredient in Mortarion's character, and he thought the matter was settled by Nikaea and Prospero. Then came Isstvan V, with heaps of his allies demonstrating Warp corruption.

 

Mortarion's motivation remains the same, Scars makes that clear. He despises the Emperor and talks about "a Galaxy of hunters, where the strong are given their freedom".

 

The Word Bearers' whole worldview was rear-ended by Monarchia. The symbolism of it mattered more than the deed. Kor Phaeron and Erebus were waiting for their chance to corrupt the Legion, Iand the Ruinous Powers went all-out with their efforts to bring the WB on side. It's far, far more nuanced than "boo hoo our city, we're turning evil now".

 

I think bluntblade sums it up quite nicely.

 

If you've read 'Flight of the Eisenstein' you see Mortarian's dissatisfaction with the Emperor's status quo didn't simply stem from a Darwinian outlook, but burning personal ambition. This made him a perfect candidate for treason when Horus' offer came his way. This of coarse eventually leads him down the bloody trail to daemon princehood by way of Typhus' manipulations (ala Erebus) and consorting with Nurgle. Mortarion's story has great potential. Why the Horus Heresy cabal at BL have not explored this thus far is a shame. It would be a lot more interesting than some of the stuff they've produced.

 

Lorgar's and the Word Bearers' road to damnation is far more complicated (probably why I find them so interesting). Their religious worldview being upended and the great symbolism of the deed (once again well said by bluntblade) psychologically disoriented the legion as a whole and drove Lorgar on his mad quest to discover the chaos gods (with the helpful manipulation of Erebus). As far as why the whole legion followed Lorgar into the embrace of chaos is much the same reason any people blindly follow charismatic leaders. History is full of examples of people following such people down the road to ruin; Napoleon, Hitler, Jim Jones to name just a few.

 

Perturabo is as flawed and broken as any of Horus' followers. He to was driven by personal ambition and perceived slights by the Emperor. 

 

In 'Vengeful Spirit', Horus laments the fact that all the brothers that chose to follow him were broken.