The Crusader Squad in 8th edition

[Machinepriest]

How are people running their Crusader Squads in 8th?
I've seen many mentions of small squads in Razorbacks lately, but that just doesn't feel very BT to me.
Are the days of the big black swarms of ZEAL gone?
Bolters? Chainswords?
Discuss!

[SydonianDragoon404]

This discussion has been done to death on this forum, if you look for it you'll find it. What it comes down to is:

 

1) What do you fight at your local meta? 

2) What models do you have?

3) What are willing to field in your crusade without "feeling" like you're a heretic?

 

The discussion boils down to this. No, 20 man squads of bolt pistol chainsword Crusaders running across the field on foot are not competitive anymore. That will matter more or less depending on what type of opponents you can expect to fight regularly. You can argue and whine about the following like many on this forum-

 

1) BT no longer has their own codex

2) We are no longer playing 4th or 5th edition

3) BT is no longer a strictly close combat army

4) BT no longer has their own codex

5) Shooting has been superior for the last 3 editions

6) Did I mention that people love whining about BT not having their own codex?

 

By doing so, you will accomplish next to nothing but continue to kick a dead horse. 

 

In summary: play what you want to play and if you aren't having fun try something else or not. Nobody can tell you what to do, nor should you try to do so for anyone else. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by SydonianDragoon404

[Schlitzaf]

The long and short of it. Crusader Squads are one of the most versatile Tactical Squad Variants in the game with Grey Hunters being the only competition. The Crusader Squad is whatever you want or need it to be for your army. The basic man 5 MSU, with Heavy/Special/Special is one of our most efficient ways to run it. If you do something like HeavyBolter/Plasma/Plasma, for 103 points, you're damage output is about that of a Devestator squad with Four Heavy Bolters. (If curious on math, 9- 6 Hit, 4 Wounds. Then 3 Hit, 2 Wounds, 3 dead Marines vs Plasma Crusaders (If rapid range), 3-2 Hit, 1.4 Wound. 4, 2.6 Hit, either 1.8 or 2.07 wounds for about 2.5-2.7 wounds). The squad has 10 Melee attacks which is respectable for that kind of squad. 

 

A Crusader Squad with equal Neo/Init Ratio, has just as many attacks as a Vangaurd Squad with Jump Packs for same point cost give or take. However a 10 Man Melee squad you are better off taking 5 Intercessor Squad unless you want to spend about 30-40 points for a special weapon and 6 more melee attacks over 2 more rounds of shooting at Ap -1. If you want to make best use of our Crusader Squad as a Melee Unit 13-15 man is what you are looking at. 

 

In particular while I have no hard math, I believe 14 man at 7-7 or 8-6 is likely the best setup for our Crusader Squad Squads. And PowSword/PowSword/Special with another special if you can afford it. The longer explanation, is that the squads effectiveness in either direction depend heavily on rest of your army to support it. BT, have several options to limit Battle Shock, Marshall with Rites of War and Helm, as well Cenobytes. Together those two units give you effectively, 42" of Battle Shock immunity. Which brings me to point two. 

 

We need less buffers to provide full coverage for our non-specials. The extra 3" from the Helm is practically speaking a second character buff range. Meaning we can afford to be more mobile then other Space Marine Armies. The Castallen option gives you a nice pick up and can place him in the front to better get buffs while Marshall stays in back waiting. The Helm also allows buffs off deep strikes assuming you congo line effectively. Our Warlord Trait prevents escape for units that move slower than 7" a turn. Keeping them locked and off overwatch. 

 

I prefer going for a buff aura, but it does mean, we can keep our enemy locked better than other Space Marine armies. That ability is especially nice with the Emperor's Champion. The Crusader Squad question, the point I am making here. Is that a Crusader Squad is versatile and can be used in any way. Our Tactic aside, between the Cenobytes, Crusader Squad and the Helm, we have a very versatile list that on a core level can be whatever you want. 

 

We do not need units like Conscripts to BattleShock immune, and have two levels of redundancy for incredibly cheap. While Cenos can be sniped, they are 12" range. Hide them behind a wall or something. You have if nothing else 6 points to hold a backfield objective. Our characters are stellar, so I don't bother going to much. But back before I tangented, if you want a straight answer to your question.

 

1) 5 Man MSU with Heavy/Special/Special

2) 13-15 Man Tide (assuming you go with Rites and Cenos)

3) Crusader Squads are best used for how you personally need them. I run a Combined Arms-Tide style list with Intercessors and Crusader Squad Center. 

4) 10 Man should be Intercessors unless you really want that Special

[Brother_Gneecapper]

The long and short of it. Crusader Squads are one of the most versatile Tactical Squad Variants in the game with Grey Hunters being the only competition. The Crusader Squad is whatever you want or need it to be for your army. The basic man 5 MSU, with Heavy/Special/Special is one of our most efficient ways to run it. If you do something like HeavyBolter/Plasma/Plasma, for 103 points, you're damage output is about that of a Devestator squad with Four Heavy Bolters. (If curious on math, 9- 6 Hit, 4 Wounds. Then 3 Hit, 2 Wounds, 3 dead Marines vs Plasma Crusaders (If rapid range), 3-2 Hit, 1.4 Wound. 4, 2.6 Hit, either 1.8 or 2.07 wounds for about 2.5-2.7 wounds). The squad has 10 Melee attacks which is respectable for that kind of squad. 

 

A Crusader Squad with equal Neo/Init Ratio, has just as many attacks as a Vangaurd Squad with Jump Packs for same point cost give or take. However a 10 Man Melee squad you are better off taking 5 Intercessor Squad unless you want to spend about 30-40 points for a special weapon and 6 more melee attacks over 2 more rounds of shooting at Ap -1. If you want to make best use of our Crusader Squad as a Melee Unit 13-15 man is what you are looking at. 

 

In particular while I have no hard math, I believe 14 man at 7-7 or 8-6 is likely the best setup for our Crusader Squad Squads. And PowSword/PowSword/Special with another special if you can afford it. The longer explanation, is that the squads effectiveness in either direction depend heavily on rest of your army to support it. BT, have several options to limit Battle Shock, Marshall with Rites of War and Helm, as well Cenobytes. Together those two units give you effectively, 42" of Battle Shock immunity. Which brings me to point two. 

 

We need less buffers to provide full coverage for our non-specials. The extra 3" from the Helm is practically speaking a second character buff range. Meaning we can afford to be more mobile then other Space Marine Armies. The Castallen option gives you a nice pick up and can place him in the front to better get buffs while Marshall stays in back waiting. The Helm also allows buffs off deep strikes assuming you congo line effectively. Our Warlord Trait prevents escape for units that move slower than 7" a turn. Keeping them locked and off overwatch. 

 

I prefer going for a buff aura, but it does mean, we can keep our enemy locked better than other Space Marine armies. That ability is especially nice with the Emperor's Champion. The Crusader Squad question, the point I am making here. Is that a Crusader Squad is versatile and can be used in any way. Our Tactic aside, between the Cenobytes, Crusader Squad and the Helm, we have a very versatile list that on a core level can be whatever you want. 

 

We do not need units like Conscripts to BattleShock immune, and have two levels of redundancy for incredibly cheap. While Cenos can be sniped, they are 12" range. Hide them behind a wall or something. You have if nothing else 6 points to hold a backfield objective. Our characters are stellar, so I don't bother going to much. But back before I tangented, if you want a straight answer to your question.

 

1) 5 Man MSU with Heavy/Special/Special

2) 13-15 Man Tide (assuming you go with Rites and Cenos)

3) Crusader Squads are best used for how you personally need them. I run a Combined Arms-Tide style list with Intercessors and Crusader Squad Center. 

4) 10 Man should be Intercessors unless you really want that Special

 

I keep seeing your break downs of this and thinking to myself, I need some neophytes. I think I have 3 in total in my whole collection. I do have my buddies Catachan's guard army in my possession, I wonder if people would be upset if I ran them as neophytes. Catachan certainly are as bad ass as most neophytes. I could see the Templar recruiting from their world. 

 

I plan to get Neophytes one day but I spent WAY too much on new models over the summer and did not include any neo's not seeing their use at the time.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Yeah... if you want to stay a little bit ahead of shooting armies this edition, there's no other choice if you're running a Space Marine army other than to get the new toys...

 

If I enter a competition, then I'd be bringing Intercessors, Redemptor Dreadnoughts and that new Repulsive Grav Tank...

but, then again I avoided getting into tournaments for a while back and just play for fun... so I don't own a single Primaris Marine model... coz I think they're ugly and dumb looking and best used as fire starters to cook BBQ with...

 

Crusader Squads are best utilized with buffs from characters, they need transports to get across the table and they don't necessarily need to be the hammer of your army... they are Tactical Troops choice after all... they should be the line of your army, the bulk, which holds lines, provides support and holds up enemy squads... don't expect much damage from them, but with enough buffs, they may hold the enemy long enough for you to deliver the actual killing blow using your more elite units like Sternguards or vehicle support...

 

A decently large squad would be ideal for screening slow moving powerful units so that they could survive a few turns of Assault and the next turn shooting if the enemy falls back, and be able to either tie or hold that enemy back some more during the consecutive phase, until you bring your Terminators to bear... a small 5-man shooty squad should just be an ideal back up shooting squad in case your Sternguards/Devastators/Predators couldn't finish the job... as usual with 40k, Crusaders submit to the single most important rule of the game, target prioritization... make sure you have the right tools for the right target, and your Crusader Squads could not go wrong...

[kombatwombat]

I’ve had surprising success with proper, punchy Crusader Squads. You do need to lean hard on characters to get any mileage out of them, which makes it fortunate that our Characters are so good.

 

I use the following:

 

Rhino 1 (2 Storm Bolters)

- 5 Initiates/5 Neophyte Crusader Squad, with a pair of Power Swords

Rhino 2 (2 Storm Bolters)

- 5 Initiates/5 Neophyte Crusader Squad, with a pair of Power Swords

Land Raider Crusader (Multi-Melta, Storm Bolter, Hunter-Killer Missile)

- 5 Initiates/5 Neophyte Crusader Squad, with a pair of Power Swords

- Helbrecht, Emperor’s Champion, Castellan, Cenobyte Servitors

 

This leaves about ~800ish points in a 2k point army with which to add flavour to the army, and satisfies a Battalion Detachment. I use this as the core of my army, and I have to say, with all the buffs Helbrecht and the Castellan give everyone (including the transports) it will deal with anything that isn’t a big, heavily armoured beastie. For that purpose, I have a Contemptor Dreadnought, Predator and Terminators/Chaplain. Crusaders become surprisingly nasty when they’re S5, reroll all hits and 1s to wound. They won’t outfight really elite combat units, but that’s what you have your own elites for.

[Machinepriest]

This discussion has been done to death on this forum, if you look for it you'll find it. What it comes down to is:

 

1) What do you fight at your local meta? 

2) What models do you have?

3) What are willing to field in your crusade without "feeling" like you're a heretic?

 

The discussion boils down to this. No, 20 man squads of bolt pistol chainsword Crusaders running across the field on foot are not competitive anymore. That will matter more or less depending on what type of opponents you can expect to fight regularly. You can argue and whine about the following like many on this forum-

 

1) BT no longer has their own codex

2) We are no longer playing 4th or 5th edition

3) BT is no longer a strictly close combat army

4) BT no longer has their own codex

5) Shooting has been superior for the last 3 editions

6) Did I mention that people love whining about BT not having their own codex?

 

By doing so, you will accomplish next to nothing but continue to kick a dead horse. 

 

In summary: play what you want to play and if you aren't having fun try something else or not. Nobody can tell you what to do, nor should you try to do so for anyone else. 

 

Err...

Thanks for answering my question, but what's with all the salty remarks?

Granted, Crusader squads have been discussed before, but most of the threads I found was based on the Index Imperium book and not the recent codex.

All I wanted to know was if the "classic" black swarm was still viable.

Why would I argue, whine or beat dead horses?

 

Nobody can tell you what to do, nor should you try to do so for anyone else

Once again, what?

 

You know those pills? The ones that makes you chill? I would suggest you take one.

 

To the rest of you who actually discussed the topic at hand, thanks a lot!

Some great advice here :) I guess I'll leave the close combat to the hammernators or Cataphractii and use the Crusaders as objective grabbers.

I was thinking of two or three squads, each lead by characters. Helbrecht is a given, so is the Emperor's Champion. I'm considering Grimaldus as well.

 

[SydonianDragoon404]

I was salty about it because typically what this discussion devolves into is a few specific veteran BT players telling anyone who is new to the faction that if they aren't playing 20 man Crusader squads marching across the board with bolt pistol and chainsword only, that they aren't playing a templar army. I got really tired of being told that I wasn't a "true Templar player" or I played "Black Ultramarines" because I used something besides bolt pistol chainsword crusaders. It has happened here, and in other places as well. 

 

I wanted to pre-empt that. Sorry if my post caused you undue displeasure, as it wasn't aimed at you, but rather aimed at folks here and in other online forums who want to tell me that I've committed sacrilege against the sacred 4th edition Templar codex for using a devastator squad. 

 

Again, sorry about that. 

Edited October 19, 2017 by SydonianDragoon404

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I've used Devastator Squads to great effect with the addition of Crusader Squads... Lascannons + Las/Plas usually has great effect when dealing with a heavily mechanized army in 7th and with 8th combining weapon options so you could fire at different targets at the same shooting phase is some what important to getting target priority right... people telling you that their giant melee blob Crusader Squads would win in any fight using bolt pistols and chainswords would be absolutely delusional... they lack transport capacity, so they are slow... they lack hitting power even if they get to melee because they don't have AP and they aren't really that well armored, so weight of dice is their enemy as well as their ally...

 

If you play on a highly competitive meta, and you're running Templars like in the old days of the 4th ed., then you really won't be winning that many games... there's a trick to winning with it but the learning curve, the enemies army and the luck of the dice has to all be in your favor for you to get a solid win...

 

Also, much of the veteran Templars here aren't so salty as to tell people off for not playing as they are playing... I haven't heard much from those that used to, and I'm very frequent on this forum since 2012... you guys probably don't even know there was a 100+ wishlisting thread on this forum started by the same guy who created "You Know you're a Black Templar When" thread... :D I would actually be happy to defend majority of the Templars here on our forum as they are zealous, loud yet polite gents that have the painting skill to outmatch even 'Eavy Metal painters...

 

But then again, some here will complain that there is no more Codex, but then again, we're not so bad as to not get our own line of plastic miniatures (Yes, Sisters I;m looking at you...) and although some might argue that we're using Space Marine miniatures and not Templar miniatures, I'd also argue that it is only half-true, as any Space Marine miniature with Templar equipment and upgrade parts, technically becomes a Templar miniature... and even if our upgrade sprue is one of the oldest in the bunch, it is also the one with the most parts to cater to every member of your army, including Terminators, Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders and Rhinos... you won't find an upgrade box that has as many options to upgrade your army to a Templar one as this...

 

As for rules, yes they might be lackluster in comparison to some others of the current ed. but what else is new... the edition, as has been discussed to death caters slightly less on shooting in comparison to the previous edition and caters just a little bit more on Assault, but using the wrong tools for the wrong job is not a good way to win this edition, so if you want to play competitively, you can't expect a tactic that was used a decade ago to still work, when so much of the rules have changed that there are now new weapons and equipment that weren't even conceived  back in 4th ed.

 

So, Crusader Squads are the right tools... they are a decent Troops choice, they have access to a wide variety of weapons and wargear, but they are not the end-all-be-all of yester years, they need a lot of character support if you plan on hitting the hardest nails with them... don't expect them to do a lot of tank hunting, they won't be consistent... don't expect them to do a lot of Elite killing, they won't be consistent... find their consistency in your army, and use that to win your games...

In mine my Crusaders have shown to be consistent in supporting my more deadlier Elites... they backed up 2 Terminators against Khorne Berzerkers and helped win the melee... in shooting they helped taking down an enemy Tank that the Devastators didn't kill... don't expect a ton of things from them... they are Troops and are better used like all Troops... support, line holding and being chaff for the enemy to mow down so the Elite units can do their job...

 

If anything, I'm more concerned about the Elite Unit comparison against other Codices... some of our Elites die as easily as the Troops from other Codices, and theirs cost much cheaper...

[SydonianDragoon404]

I'm with you 100% Marshal Roujakis on the Elites choices, I was rather let down by Vanguard Veterans and Honor Guard, though Company Veterans with storm bolters may end up with a spot on my list as they seem to have lots of promise. I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing there were a space marine unit whose function was "close combat wrecking ball, if they reach CC the enemy unit is probably dead". Thunder Hammer Storm Shield terminators aint it. Not without support anyway. 

[Schlitzaf]

Rou, fight me. ZEAL! If Vangaurd Veterans are considered the standard for the amount of mele attacks, Crusader Squad are point for point as efficienct. While slow (relatively) they are durable and won’t break with Ceno and Rites of War. They won’t go super DeathBall of Doon. But they are effective as chaff sweepers and objective takers.

 

As well being able to clean out other basic infantry like Tactical/Chaos Marines and will Squad to Squad with Ork Boyz in my experience. And eat elite units that stray too far forward. (Mostly they are effective as winning melee engagements against other troops). But 5 Mans might be more efficiency our Crusaders put out as much attacks as Vangaurd and Company Vets with Chains in Melee. And in regards to Company Vet shooting we are about half as effective. As their shooting with about double the wound count. Not bad for a generic troop unit?

 

In all honestly Tide Squads do have their issues and some of it is down more army preference. Most of my army is based around supporting a slightly slow Center with a lot of deep strikers

Edited October 19, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Ebon Hand]

I've been having trouble with my Crusader squads since my last few games but I think the advice in this thread is really good.

 

I've been running 5 man chainsword squads in a LR Crusader with the occasional missile launcher, power weapon, etc, but I've been finding that MSU isn't the best thing for close combat. You would think it's the other way around because of morale but I've found that things like the counter assault strategem or Honor the Chapter, even something simple like a command reroll to make the charge are worth way more when it's on a big squad.

 

There are also a bunch of mortal wound causing things in the game that affect each unit. My least two games my Crusaders were punished for their MSU by a Nurgle ability that passed out mortal wounds (can't remember what it was, maybe it was their exploding perils of the warp thing or Typhus), and another game where a smart opponent saw me death balling on his flank and took a chance on an Orbital Bombardment strategem that paid off and decimated my force!

 

I'm going to start running bigger squads more often for close combat with some Cenobites or Marshal/Chaplain support. I'm also going to stop trying to make them do the heavy lifting of my army.