Ruinstorm 'Spoilers'

[Sun Reaver]

Ruinstorm is sort of the Apocalypse Now of the HH series so far.

A trippy voyage through the surreal that doesn’t always make sense, yet you can’t escape the experiential truth of the whole thing. When you fight an enemy that lives by symbols, sometimes symbols are your own best weapon.

Very well said.

 

Also....

 

Meros was mentioned in the Dramatis Personae (spelling) part but I don’t remember seeing him in the book. Can someone confirm if they did see him specifically?

[Panzer]

 

Also....

 

Meros was mentioned in the Dramatis Personae (spelling) part but I don’t remember seeing him in the book. Can someone confirm if they did see him specifically?

 

If he didn't actually appear in the book it would be a very interesting way to hint who or what the Sanguinior possibly is.....or a very misleading mistake! :D

[Indefragable]

 

Also....

 

Meros was mentioned in the Dramatis Personae (spelling) part but I don’t remember seeing him in the book. Can someone confirm if they did see him specifically?

If he didn't actually appear in the book it would be a very interesting way to hint who or what the Sanguinior possibly is.....or a very misleading mistake!

Umm....I don’t get why there’s speculation on who the Sanguinor is.

 

In Herald of Sanguinius they explicitly explain where the Herald comes from and his role.

 

The Herald then goes on to do increasingly crazy things...to the point that it’s fairly clear that he turns into the Sanguinor.

 

And the Herald is not Meros, since the Herald was created after Signus Prime.

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Indefragable

[Panzer]

 

 

Also....

 

Meros was mentioned in the Dramatis Personae (spelling) part but I don’t remember seeing him in the book. Can someone confirm if they did see him specifically?

If he didn't actually appear in the book it would be a very interesting way to hint who or what the Sanguinior possibly is.....or a very misleading mistake!

Umm....I don’t get why there’s speculation on who the Sanguinor is.

 

In Herald of Sanguinius they explicitly explain where the Herald comes from and his role.

 

The Herald then goes on to do increasingly crazy things...to the point that it’s fairly clear that he turns into the Sanguinor.

 

And the Herald is not Meros, since the Herald was created after Signus Prime.

 

 

Well I didn't read Herald of Sanguinius. I only know the 40k Sanguinior. ^^

[Sun Reaver]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also....

Meros was mentioned in the Dramatis Personae (spelling) part but I don’t remember seeing him in the book. Can someone confirm if they did see him specifically?

 

If he didn't actually appear in the book it would be a very interesting way to hint who or what the Sanguinior possibly is.....or a very misleading mistake! :D

Umm....I don’t get why there’s speculation on who the Sanguinor is.

In Herald of Sanguinius they explicitly explain where the Herald comes from and his role.

The Herald then goes on to do increasingly crazy things...to the point that it’s fairly clear that he turns into the Sanguinor.

And the Herald is not Meros, since the Herald was created after Signus Prime.

Well I didn't read Herald of Sanguinius. I only know the 40k Sanguinior. ^^

It’s well worth the listen - its an audio book. I’m sure you can find it somewhere ;)

[Kasper_Hawser]

Actually I don't know how to make spoiler tags, or rather I keep forgetting how to make them. Really wish there was a simple button for it, rather than just "quote".

 

See this is what I'm afraid off. It looks like Annandale is using chaos as a convenient plot device to make things NOT make sense or inconsistent. Anything we get confused, he seems to be purposely chalking it off as "what is real and fake in the warp?" And in the end, we're left wondering what the heck we are reading.

 

I know GW themselves who purposely state that everything is canon and not cannon. But at least within the books you control, MAKE IT CONSISTENT, even if another author mucks it up later.

 

Gav Thorpe is the best (sarcasm) in that he is consistent in his inconsistency writing and also consistent on screwing the Dark Angels. 

[Crimson Ghost IX]

[spoiler...]

blah blah

[/spoiler...]

 

Remove the ... in each spoiler line and there ya go.

 

Yeah Chaos does make for some trippy stuff lately.  I hear ya *nod.

I am more or less alright with it anymore tho I suppose and it kinda goes with the 40k territory.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[TheRealMcCagh]

 That herald and the 40k Sanguinor can still be different people/things. The Herald is just a Sanguinary guard who won (or lost) the lottery and had a mask burned on his face. The 'Herald' in Ruinstorm actually does some crazy stuff, not just normal Astartes with a mask kind of stuff. He's already the Sanguinor, when the decoy Herald of Sanguinius should still be alive and kicking. And I think Meros only makes the roster because he is mentioned by name in Sanguinius' thoughts. He doesn't make a proper appearance (either him or the Red Angel)

[Kasper_Hawser]

Really doesn't make sense for 30K herald to actually be 40K herald though. The 40K herald is almost like a daemon powered by the Imperium's worship of Sanguinus as the most noble son of the Emperor (didn't say he/it was a daemon, just that going by 40K logic, it's likely). For him to appear or exist in 30K seems even more crazy as it means even before the Blood Angels became part of the Imperial Cult and worship the Emperor (going by James Swallow novels), the Sanguinor existed?

 

As heretical as it sounds (real life Christian crazy disbelief), so much for Emps being god, Sanguinus being Jesus and the Sanguinor being the holy ghost left behind to guide mankind. Nevermind of course the Emps isn't as powerful or omnipresent as he thinks, Sanguinus did NOT conquer death and rise from the dead, and the Sanguinor seems to only appear to Blood Angels, not the Imperium at large unlike the Legion of the Damned.

 

 

On the other hand, knowing the screwed up way GW works, maybe the 40K Sanguinor IS the one in 30K ala time travel. Because that's how Gav Thorpe works, making the 40K Dark Angels blow up Caliban in 30K in the latest Unforgiven series of novels.

 

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Sorry, not meant as a bump. Is Night Huanters involvement purely verbal or does he fight too?

 

Kinda always wanted to see the Angel and the Bat either brawling or forced to fight together,

[Indefragable]

Sorry, not meant as a bump. Is Night Huanters involvement purely verbal or does he fight too?

 

Kinda always wanted to see the Angel and the Bat either brawling or forced to fight together,

From Angels of Caliban or Pharos (can’t remember which).

 

Curze ambushes Sanguinius in the throneroom on Maccrage. Sanguinius is basically in robes and just his sword, Curze is full on Night Haunter killing UM/DA bump-in-the-night, just fought Vulkan and RG and the Lion.

 

It’s a draw.

 

Partially because it’s more samurai movie/Jedi duel dialogue+sparring match, partially because each one’s psychic foresight kind of cancel each other out.

 

And plot reasons.

 

 

From Ruinstorm

Curze has a secondary bit in the story, yet he is part of the plot device in much the sense that his foresight is used as a form of validation. I.e. stuff like if Curze says x will happen in the future, then Sangy, RG, and the Lion work backwards to figure out they should turn left at the next set of lights. Kinda.

 

Curze surprisingly stays chained up the whole time. I kept expecting him to pull a Joker in Arkham Asylum video game where he’s like “I wanted to get captured to infiltrate your ship!”, or for him to break out and cause mayhem...but the precautions the others take work surprisingly well. No Dr. Evil methods of imprisonment.

 

What’s interesting is when Curze’s visions of the future turn up wrong or cloudy, he becomes quite a different character. Scared. Clingy. Makes you realize just how much a :cuss he really is. He’s less “we’re all just puppets and nothing matters” and more a hipster who knows the end of the movie so he ruins it for everyone else. Show him one he hasn’t seen before and suddenly he’s not so Mr. know-it-all.

 

TL;DR. Curze is literally shackled the entire time and can barely lift a finger, let alone fight. Which is impressive in and of itself.

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

He is meant to be a pathetic character, in that regard, although you have to remember that it's contrasted by the fact that, for him, his visions show nothing but the worst possible outcomes, and nothing he does ever seems to manage to avoid them. He's a fatalist because all his life he's been tormented by visions of his death at the hands of the Emperor, of the Heresy occurring, nothing but death and destruction, and these seem set in stone. He's given up fighting it. Now his visions are showing similar things for Sanguinius etc, but they manage to avoid their Dark Fate.

 

This is what terrifies him. Why are they spared, yet he is so cursed? Is there something could he have done differently, that could have avoided everything that has happened, or is he truly cursed to his fate, while others are free? Everything he's done, the murderer he's become, has been based on the certainty that the darkness of humanity will always win, that Nostramo would need to be punished, that Horus would turn, and that his brutality is what is needed to hold back the tide.

 

Now though? What if his visions are wrong? What if everything he's done, the monster that he made himself into in the certainty that the Imperium needs monsters, were wrong? He's spent his whole life believing he's stuck to a script, that fate must play out the way it must, and now others are subverting it. Changing the narrative.

 

He's not a hipster wanting to spoil the movie, he's spent his whole life believing he's a puppet, and now having to deal with the thought that there never were any strings, yet he became an abomination because he wholeheartedly believed that's what the puppetmaster wanted.

[Indefragable]

He is meant to be a pathetic character, in that regard, although you have to remember that it's contrasted by the fact that, for him, his visions show nothing but the worst possible outcomes, and nothing he does ever seems to manage to avoid them. He's a fatalist because all his life he's been tormented by visions of his death at the hands of the Emperor, of the Heresy occurring, nothing but death and destruction, and these seem set in stone. He's given up fighting it. Now his visions are showing similar things for Sanguinius etc, but they manage to avoid their Dark Fate.

 

This is what terrifies him. Why are they spared, yet he is so cursed? Is there something could he have done differently, that could have avoided everything that has happened, or is he truly cursed to his fate, while others are free? Everything he's done, the murderer he's become, has been based on the certainty that the darkness of humanity will always win, that Nostramo would need to be punished, that Horus would turn, and that his brutality is what is needed to hold back the tide.

 

Now though? What if his visions are wrong? What if everything he's done, the monster that he made himself into in the certainty that the Imperium needs monsters, were wrong? He's spent his whole life believing he's stuck to a script, that fate must play out the way it must, and now others are subverting it. Changing the narrative.

 

He's not a hipster wanting to spoil the movie, he's spent his whole life believing he's a puppet, and now having to deal with the thought that there never were any strings, yet he became an abomination because he wholeheartedly believed that's what the puppetmaster wanted.

Hidden Content

Well said. That certainly is the sympathetic view for a less than sympathetic character.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Gah, all this "are we free to choose our fates or are we stuck being puppets no matter what we do" is driving me crazy, and is a convenient plot device for any writer to invalidate everything and anything made consistent in the literature, resulting in a quagmire of realities that will eventually spawn the DC and Marvel universes. 

 

Ironically, this would probably drive Magnus even more insane as he too believes no matter what he does will be for Tzeetch so he embraces Tzeetch whole heartedly without trying to fight anymore.

[TheRealMcCagh]

Has Curze ever tried to change the outcome of his visions? His fatalism and resignation doesn't quite make sense to me since he usually just always goes along with it, and in most cases tries to make sure they do come true.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Sadly his visions have some merrit. Typical example of a powerful individual growing up in "isolation" in a sick world. I think he would of gotten of with pertuabo.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Has Curze ever tried to change the outcome of his visions? His fatalism and resignation doesn't quite make sense to me since he usually just always goes along with it, and in most cases tries to make sure they do come true.

 

Curze has a mantra when trying to console himself in face of suddenly being unable to foresee the near future.

"Nothing Changes... Nothing Changes... Nothing Changes!!"

--

I speculate and I feel Ruinstorm bears out that the future is indeed mutable.  Sanguinius seems to figure this out and tries some minor changes. It is an open question as to whether it is always possible or if one has to locate points of influence and act on them to make changes.

 

Sanguinius can kill Horus and live. He has seen it. Was it a vision sent by Tzentch etc? If so, which? The life or death version??

 

Really neat concepts, nicely outlined and intentionally left as open / closed question based on readers interpretration of events I feel. Pretty kool stuff *nod.

[Lord_Caerolion]

We've been told that every time Curze would use the Emperors Tarot, it would show the exact same results, every single time. The Index Astartes article stated that he always failed when trying to avoid the events he foresaw too.

[Panzer]

Well that's just how BA and NL mirror eachother.

One being a legion of shock and awe, the other being a legion all about terror tactics. One being all about hope, the other being all about despair and hopelessness. ^^

[Kasper_Hawser]

In the end, I guess the true heroes are the ones who KNOW and SEE what happens as at 40K  yet soldier on anyway trying to fight for what's left of humanity. Rather than give in to the inevitable, they go down fighting regardless. 

[Crimson Ghost IX]

So I was re-listening to Ruinstorm while working on a ceiling in my basement tonight and it occurs to me regarding the Sanguinor...

 

The guardsmen who became the Sanguinor is obviously possessed of otherworldly extraordinary power from very early on.

Like even back in the day when Sanguinius was interacting with him, shortly after the Sanguinors creation as the Herald etc.

He appears to Sanguinius a number of times as the angel of his better nature / an extension of his want or need / a vessel able to do what he cannot etc

In this novel but elsewhere also... Where does the power come from I am thinking?

 

Is he invested with POWER as a daemon of the warp (seems very unlikely) or of the Emperor (more likely) or of Sanguinius himself (even more likely I am kinda thinking).

 

Sanguinius has been praying hard to his father off and on throughout a few novels lately for aid / forgiveness he cannot give to himself / yearning to reach Terra etc...

So sure it is possible that the Emperor made a mini me to help Sanguinius and that is kool.

 

But I am thinking:

The Sanguinor was trying very hard to be Sanguinius (pretend to be anyhow) during Imperium Secondus at his creation right?

Sanguinius seems to pour over with a great deal of raw emotion at the sacrifice his son has made when he sees him right?

We know the blood of the IX is very tuned in together with itself and makes for powerful psykers and is generally capable of amazing things etc right?

 

 

Suppose Sanguinius invested this willing avatar of himself, with the power to be the best of himself - like an unconscious defense kinda thing or somesuch.

Because he needed himself; to save himself from himself, and to do the things he cannot bring himself to do - if you follow that.

 

I am thinking he continues to invest this vessel with power over the story probably and it ultimately takes his place so he can be in more than one place at a time.

-Holding down the daemon he cannot let go of so he can go do what he has to do.-

 

And later on in these books I am betting the Sanguinor will be sent to watch over Sanguinius' bloodline when he no longer can because he must meet this fate - if you follow that.

 

The Sanguinor is definately an extension of Sanguinius is what I am thinking - knowingly or not - in his times of great need.

Or perhaps I just need to go close the paint cans...

Anyhow 

 

So I ask you, who made who ? ... oh yeah there was some AC/DC in there someplace. 

Discuss n stuff.

 

 

 

 

Indefragable is right. Trippy Apocalypse Now kinda feel to this book. Love it.

Random thoughts caused by a good book anyhow.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Kasper_Hawser]

So I was re-listening to Ruinstorm while working on a ceiling in my basement tonight and it occurs to me regarding the Sanguinor...

 

The guardsmen who became the Sanguinor is obviously possessed of otherworldly extraordinary power from very early on.

Like even back in the day when Sanguinius was interacting with him, shortly after the Sanguinors creation as the Herald etc.

He appears to Sanguinius a number of times as the angel of his better nature / an extension of his want or need / a vessel able to do what he cannot etc

In this novel but elsewhere also... Where does the power come from I am thinking?

 

Is he invested with POWER as a daemon of the warp (seems very unlikely) or of the Emperor (more likely) or of Sanguinius himself (even more likely I am kinda thinking).

 

Sanguinius has been praying hard to his father off and on throughout a few novels lately for aid / forgiveness he cannot give to himself / yearning to reach Terra etc...

So sure it is possible that the Emperor made a mini me to help Sanguinius and that is kool.

 

But I am thinking:

The Sanguinor was trying very hard to be Sanguinius (pretend to be anyhow) during Imperium Secondus at his creation right?

Sanguinius seems to pour over with a great deal of raw emotion at the sacrifice his son has made when he sees him right?

We know the blood of the IX is very tuned in together with itself and makes for powerful psykers and is generally capable of amazing things etc right?

 

 

Suppose Sanguinius invested this willing avatar of himself, with the power to be the best of himself - like an unconscious defense kinda thing or somesuch.

Because he needed himself; to save himself from himself, and to do the things he cannot bring himself to do - if you follow that.

 

I am thinking he continues to invest this vessel with power over the story probably and it ultimately takes his place so he can be in more than one place at a time.

-Holding down the daemon he cannot let go of so he can go do what he has to do.-

 

And later on in these books I am betting the Sanguinor will be sent to watch over Sanguinius' bloodline when he no longer can because he must meet this fate - if you follow that.

 

The Sanguinor is definately an extension of Sanguinius is what I am thinking - knowingly or not - in his times of great need.

Or perhaps I just need to go close the paint cans...

Anyhow 

 

So I ask you, who made who ? ... oh yeah there was some AC/DC in there someplace. 

Discuss n stuff.

 

 

 

 

Indefragable is right. Trippy Apocalypse Now kinda feel to this book. Love it.

Random thoughts caused by a good book anyhow.

 

You love it, I hate it. Ouch, I feel a migraine that could potentially make my head explode. Thanks mate. :P

 

Kidding. you raise a few good points but unfortunately, its useless to discuss that as it'll result in an endless loop.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I get the Feeling the Sanguinor is the 30/40k equivalent to the Celestial Prime.

 

If anything I chose to believe the Sanguinor is the melded energy/consciousness of those that have been felled by the black rage and that their "soul energy" is pooled into a being of pure awesomeness.

[Indefragable]

Not to be a :cuss but it seems pretty obvious.

Herald of Sanguinius flat-out describes where that position/person comes from: the Herald of Sanguinius was a Sanguinary Guard who forsake his name and identity to become a body double of sorts for Sanguinius while he was “Emperor” of Imperium Secundus.

In Ruinstorm we suddenly see the Herald doing very Sanguinor-like things, to the point of being literally half-nuked into the warp.

10,000 years caught in th warp will do funny things to a warrior as badass as a Sanguinary Guard.

Hence the Sanguinor.

I don’t understand why there’s any mystery around it.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

 

No worries. I think there is something under the obvious is all.

 

Yeah I am familiar with where the Herald was made part. Yep.

Just seems to me he has Sanguinor level powers pretty early on.

Appearing and pulling Sanguinius out of the black rage.

Appearing out of nowhere inside a warp rift and holding down the super powerful demon like - Hey man I got this thing, you can bail now...

Speculate he recieved the power from Sanguinius - early on.

 

Possibly reading into things too much *nod.

Obvious works for me too *nod.

 

Just some thoughts, because it is mysteriously mysterious in the grim darkness of the far future man. =)