How should I bring my Templars up to speed?

[Imperator Deus]

I primarily play Astra Militarum, but I've had a Black Templar army as a side project since they were introduced in The Armageddon Codex (in 3rd Edition I think). It's mostly unpainted and honestly neglected, but I've been thinking about giving them some love for 8th edition. I tried two games after the Codex was released and didn't do too well. I was nearly tabled in both games. My army collection is mostly put together with 3rd/4th edition in mind with a few additions along the way. Here is the list that I used in the two games:

 

HQ

Chaplain in Terminator Armour (Warlord) with the Crusader's Helm

The Emperor's Champion

 

Elites

Dreadnought with Assault Cannon, Dreadnought Combat Weapon and Heavy Flamer

Terminator Assault Squad with Thunderhammers and Storm Shields

 

Troops

Crusader Squad with 10 Initiates and 5 Neophytes armed with Bolt Pistols and Chainswords. One Initiate has a Power Sword and the Sword Brother has a Powerfist.

Crusader Squad with 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes armed with Bolters, Missile Launcher and Plasmagun

Tactical Squad with 10 Initiates Meltagun and Multi-Melta and Sword Brother has a Powerfist

5-man Scout Squad with 5 Sniper Rifles and Camo Cloaks

 

Fast Attack

Assault Squad with 10 Initiates with Jump Packs, Bolt Pistols and Chainswords and Flamer, Sword Brother has a Power Fist

Assault Squad with 10 Initiates with Jump Packs, Bolt Pistols and Chainswords and Flamer, Sword Brother has a Power Axe

 

Heavy Support

Land Raider Crusader with Multi-Melta

 

First off I know I'm committing a mild heresy using a Tactical squad and a Scout squad. It does make me feel a little dirty, but I do it anyway, Emperor forgive me, lol! I suppose I could just start calling the Tactical squad a Crusader Squad, but if there aren't any Neophytes in it, it just doesn't feel like a real Crusader Squad to me. As for the Scout Squad, I have no excuse other than the rule of cool!

 

If it helps the first game I played was against Tau with a lot of Crisis Suits a Riptide, Stormsurge and a Ghostkeel and a couple units of Fire Warriors and some Pathfinders in a Devilfish. The second game was against Orks with a metric butt-load of infantry.

 

I usually run the 15 man Crusader Squad with the Emperor's Champion in the Land Raider and Teleport in the Chaplain and Terminators. The 20 Man Crusader squad usually defends my back field, or camps objectives, and lays down supporting fire. I play it by ear with the Assault squads. Depending what I'm up against or the needs of the mission I'll either Deep Strike them in, or deploy them on the table. The Tactical Squad was my Anti-Tank unit, I used to run them in a Rhino to zap enemy vehicles with the Melta and Multi-Melta from the top hatch. That's not an option anymore though so I'm not really sure what the best tactic is for them. Both the Meltagun and the Multi-Melta are fairly short ranged, They need a transport of some sort. I do have a Drop Pod, maybe I should try it out with them? To be honest, the only reason I originally bought the scout snipers is because I think they look cool. In 8th the ability to target characters is pretty useful and I think that makes them worthwhile.

 

In both games that I've played so far the Land Raider was blown up by the second turn killing a few Initiates and neophytes, and leaving the rest exposed to enemy fire. I'm wondering if it's worth taking the Crusader anymore? Have you guys had better luck with them in 8th? If I drop the Land Raider, I could probably fit a second unit of Terminators, or maybe another Crusader Squad. Is it worth keeping it in the list?

 

What do you guys think of the list in general? It's absolutely possible that my list is fine and it was my tactical choices that were the problem. To be honest, after playing Guard for so long, I get nervous when I have fewer than 100 models on the table, lol! I typically run a gun line with my Guard, which is why I chose Black Templars, I wanted an army that played as far from Guard as possible which, in my mind, meant close combat. Perhaps the problem is that I'm being too aggressive when I play? I try to get into close combat ASAP. As you can see, the above list doesn't have a lot of shooting in it, and neither does the rest of my collection. Should I try to add some more ranged elements? I have the Dark Imperium box, so adding some Primaris Marines is an option. Has anyone tried them on the table? How did they work out for you?

 

I've recently worked out a trade with a buddy of mine for the Venerable Dreadnought and Artemis sprues from his second Start Collecting Deathwatch box. I think I might give the Dreadnought Twin Lascannons and a Missile Launcher to try to fill in the lack of heavy weapons in my army. I have some spare Black Templars shoulder pads from the Conversion Kit, so I'll just put those on him instead of the Deathwatch pads and call him a Marshal with Powersword and Combi-Flamer.

 

I'm looking forward to reading your advice and thanks for taking the time to read this novel!

[Kisada]

(I'm a gaming noob) ... with that out of the way ... I think one of the issue with your list is that the LRC is like the only major threat on the table.  Nothing better to shoot at so I can totally see why they would shoot at it.  I'm not a competitive gamer ... but when I put together my lists or look at other people's lists I always ask myself what would I try to kill first?

 

You want your opponent to have a hard time deciding that.  Or an alternative view would be to make the first target obvious but also super hard to kill.  I don't know exactly how you would do that with the LRC but its an idea ... where you place it could really help here.  That way they're so focused on it that you can really hurt their prime units while they're distracted.

 

I think one of my main MVPs this edition has been my lascannon predator ... it's always done some good work and been a real threat to my opponents each game

[Kellevil]

I think if you added a couple of assault cannon razorbacks to support your land raider it would help. Every time i have run that combo my opponent picks the razorbacks to target first and my LRC has done good work. And the razorbacks are still durable enough to do their job before they die (usually). And by the time they have shifted to my LRC they have lost too much firepower to deal with it effectively.

[Schlitzaf]

Look at my other posts if you curious for more in-depth. Looking at your current list. Drop the Tacticals. Crusader Squads are mostly strictly better bar mid-game flexibility with combat squad stratagem. Second if you are doing Tide Squads they should be melee outfitted. Shooty Crusaders, 5 Man MSU, Special/Special/Heavy. Tide Squads should be kept in the 13-15 Man Range. And equal Init/Neo or have 1 or 2 more Inits than Neo.

 

Powerfist on Crusader Squads are bad, we don’t put out enough attacks. (3 Ark to 1.5 Hit then 1.25 Wound and about 2 damage. Compare to Swords, 3 to 2 hit to 1 Wound.) You need about 12 Fist attacks to become appreciable better than the equivalent number (Not Points) to Swords.

 

A good setup. Based on what I see. Would be 2-3 Tide or Rhino Mounted Squads*. And 2-3 5 Man MSU Backfield or 2-3 5 Man Intercessor Firefight. If your good is to have a strong center. You have two options I see, (well three but that option is 5 Man MSU Shooty Army spam for reference).

1) Rhino and Raider Rush. A core 2-4 Rhino Chassis Mounted and 2 LRC Mounted Units. Variety of fire saturation and depending on the IG half’s supported (if taking IG) supported by cheap backrow. This army is focused on divide and conquering you should have two seperate flanks. And you likely have to go double Captain you can squeeze. If you have 4 Rhinos and 2 LRC you can instead have a front or centered focused. While your other units pinch. Even if you don’t get in melee you’ll keep him enclosed. Keeping your reign over the battlefield. Which in objective games is all that matters

2) Tide List. 2-3 Bulky Crusaders in Center with Rite Marshall and Cenos. Your army in this case should be focused on overwelming with a mix of raw numbers and distraction ‘fexes. Or you’ll get shot before you arrive. Use units like Reivars, Scions and otherwise to present a threat to his guns turn 1. The Crusaders here use the first two or three turns to cross the board as your reserves and faster units pound the enemy. Generally here you have unlike 5 Man MSU Heavy/Special/Special or 5 Man Intercessors providing long range fire support supporting the forward strike.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339181-black-templars-and-am-soup-2000-points/ My list being the second. The reason I posted this it’s honestly important to know what your army is doing before you even write a single point down

 

Some more general advice, NO 20 MAN. The 13-15 man are footprint simply footprint is a good size in my experience. Exact numbers can be debated. But taking a straight 10 Man, Intercessors are better bar you really wanting that special (Crusaders have more attack but Intercessors start shooting earlier at -1 AP). That means Tide Squads Which need near equal Init/Neo. And need to be greater than 10 Man. However for two 20 Man you could get a 3rd 12-14 Man. That is just my gut I have no hard numbers which 13-15 Man Squads are best for size. If you ran them as 13-15 Man. And to iterate Crusaders can 5 Man MSU so you shouldn’t go beyond that if you are doing range outfit.

 

And if you can take a 2nd Terminator Squad. I’m not a fan of Assault Marines espacially with packs. As Vangaurd are better if you want the mobile attack and bully hit. While cheap assault units, the Crusader, Intercessor or Reivars are better depending on the role for the unit in the army. We aren’t Berzerkers, we are more like Plague Marines. Cheap (relatively) Durable Blocks. And can switch between a firefight and melee role. And while Pods are over priced, Marines have numerous and several methods of alternate deployment. Including Teleport and other forms of deep strike, you have Rhinos and Bikes.

 

We don’t hit as hard as Khorne or shoot as well as Gaurd. Instead we ponderously advance forward entrapping the enemy as we cleanse them with Bolter and Chainsword. Our Tactic allows us, if we deploy mass in reserve about 50% of making the charge. Far better than the 27% otherwise. Meaning we can lock the enemy reliably up t1 with enemy strikes while our Crusaders and support crew advance for the finishing blow. And finally pardon the massive tangents, the list overall is not bad. I like. The core issue is how the Squad is sets up (20 not 13-15 Man and range setup, using Tacticals and Assault Marines espacially in Templars. You need two Raiders).

Edited October 19, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[SydonianDragoon404]

Pick up some heavy weapons and either a couple of captains/lieutenants and/or High Marshal Helbrecht (or kitbash your own high marshal). More special weapons will also go a long way. Like others have said Land Raider, Razorbacks, another unit that is fairly good these days depending on the matchup are Terminators. Those guys are tough now.

[bolvar]

Sadly, assault squads are one of the worst units in the codex. If you really want to use jump pack marines, grab vanguard veterans.

 

+1 to Kisada and Kellevil, a single LRC attract all the heavy firepower the enemy has, so it can get overpowered and not being able to do its job.

[Imperator Deus]

That's a lot to ponder. Thanks for the advice, guys. As far as a second Land Raider, would you guys recommend a second Crusader, or is a basic Land Raider (the one with Lascannons) a better option to add some high strength heavy weapons?

 

I was pretty disappointed in the Assault Marines' performance in both games to be honest. I do have more Terminators, I have another Terminator Assault Squad with Lightning Claws and two shooty Terminator units, one with Assault Cannon, and one with Heavy Flamer. As far as other transports I have a Rhino and a Razorback for which I can swap between Twin Heavy Bolters and Twin Lascannons.

 

Maybe it's the Guard player in me, but 5 man squads seem too small, are they really that effective? Even with power armour, I'm concerned they would be too easy to shoot off the table.

 

I have the old metal "Captain" model with a power axe and a combi-melta. I don't know if it was meant to be a Marshal, but I always thought so because he's wearing a tabard and was always painted in black power armour in all the photos I've ever seen. I also kit-bashed a Marshal in Terminator armour with a Thunderhammer and a Lightning Claw. I made that model in 7th but haven't put him on the table yet. It seemed like a good idea on paper for 7th, but I couldn't say how optimal it'll be in 8th. I don't have Helbrecht, but I do have Grimaldus. Unfortunately I waited too long and had to get Grimaldus in finecast. I despise finecast. I was so disappointed in finecast Grimaldus that I didn't even bother with Helbrecht. Hopefully they'll be re-released in plastic.

 

I haven't built my Primaris Marines yet, but maybe I'll have to make that my next project.

[Kisada]

I've used a 5 man assault squad (2 flamer, sarge w/ melta bombs) 103pts.

 

They worked decently as a harassment unit but I don't play against tournament meta type players.

 

I would drop them in, preferably behind some cover and try to get the charge on something I want to stop from shooting.  After charging it and trying to melta bomb it, I would then either fall back into cover and try it next turn, stay locked in combat and keep trying to drop melta bombs, fall back and flame/grenade something.  

 

They aren't scary enough for people to really try to focus on them but being able to stop some tanks from firing for a couple of turns and put some wounds on them with the melta bombs has worked out decently for me.

[GreyCrow]

Welcome to the Templars, from another midnight clad Chapter (and formerly BT player back when I started in 1998!).

 

There are two things holding your list back :

 

1)

I see your list showing the typical symptom of 'a bit of everything', which definitely hurts the army, because you are not overwhelming your opponent in any fashion.

 

For example, you have 500 points invested in 2 vehicles, who are going to draw your opponents' AT fire, while the rest of your army is mainly infantry.

 

You are allowing him to prioritize his anti tank fire power, and you don't have much armour to provide viable alternative threats.

 

Your infantry is much more survivable due to you having so much of it !

 

2) Your list is clearly geared towards infantry assault, but you seem to lack a heavy breaching unit. The assault squads are mainly used for fast bodies on the table, but lack survivability.

 

If strong frontline push is your thing, try more terminators and/or bikers !

[Imperator Deus]

How's this for a revised list:

 

HQ

Captain with Power Axe and Combi-Melta (Warlord Trait: Storm of Fire) (Relic: The Armour Indomitus)

Chaplain Grimaldus

 

Elites

Dreadnought with Assault Cannon and Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon and Heavy Flamer

Venerable Dreadnought with Twin Lascannon and Missile Launcher

 

Troops

Crusader Squad (10 Initiates, 5 Neophytes) with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword, Sword Brother with Power Fist, 1 Initiate with Power Sword

Crusader Squad (10 Initiates, 5 Neophytes) with Bolters, Sword Brother with Powersword and Bolt Pistol, Meltagun and Multi-Melta

Crusader Squad (10 Initiates, 10 Neophytes) with Bolters, Missile Launcher and Plasma Gun

5-man Scout Squad with Sniper Rifles and Camo Cloaks

 

Heavy Support

Land Raider Crusader with Multi-Melta

Land Raider Crusader with Multi-Melta

 

In order to put this list together, I'll only have to buy the second Land Raider Crusader and 5 Scouts for the Melta squad. I got the Venerable Dreadnought from my buddy, I'm just waiting for a resin base to arrive in the mail to build it.

 

I know you guys advised against taking units larger than 12-15, but I do like the 20 man squad for camping objectives in my side of the table. My thoughts were to push into my opponents army with the 15-man Bolt Pistol/Chainsword Crusaders in one of the Land Raiders with Grimaldus, and the 15-man Bolter Crusaders in the other with the Captain. The dreadnoughts could move up to take mid-field objectives while laying down some fire support. My biggest concern with this list is the small number of units.

 

I feel like I could be giving up too much board control. My last game was with my Guard, I had 34 deployment drops covering almost my entire deployment zone. I feel kind of exposed with only 6 deployments. Is that just something I'll have to get used to with my Templars or am I barking up the wrong tree with this list? The bigger units are admittedly a bit of a psychological crutch for me, it's somehow comforting to see 50 infantry on the table, even if they're only in 3 units, lol! I see some Templar lists online that go the extreme MSU route with 6 or 7 five man units, but that looks so fragile to me. 1 or 2 small units seems ok, but an entire army of small units seems so unreliable in my mind.

 

Thanks again for your feedback!

[Schlitzaf]

1) Equal Initaites to Neophytes in Crusaders.

2) No Powerfists on Sword Brothers. 2 Attacks are just too unreliable with -1. Use PowSwords

3) In either case I’d drop 1 Neos and 1 Init from each Squad.

 

Those changes give you 63 Points more total.

 

4) Drop the Scouts and the 20 Man into 3 5 Man w/ Las/Plas/CombiPlas. That gives you 46 Points.

 

So 109 points total.

 

5) The Assault/LRC Crusaders should be melee outfitted if not take 2-3 5 Man MSU with Heavy/Special/Special. If keeping them as 15 Man Bolter Crusaders Drop Multi-Melta to PowSword. Give the other Crusader Squad a MeltaGun. (Point does not change).

 

6) Take a Castellen (Liutanent) to enabling unlocking a 2nd Detachment. Move Marshall from LRC to Backfield to babysit your Back Field Crusader Squads.

 

Leaving you 47ish

 

7) I’d also personally if you feel up to conversion is the drop PowAx on your MetalMarshall to PowSword and give Castallen a Storm Bolter. Or take MetalMarshall as your Castellen. Have him have Helm (less useful give only one aura to Marshall’s two).

 

8) In either case Armor Indomitius with Crusade Helm on Marshall. Gives you an 9” Aura for your buffs. Then take Teeth on Castallen.

 

9) Move Grim and Castallen to same LRC. Take Cenos. Upgrade Regular Dread to VenDread. I would personally drop Heavy Flamer to Storm Bolter. And would keep both Dreads the same setup. Also give the LRC StormBolters

 

That leaves 0-27 Points left over.

 

10) If you take my suggestion about Dreads and no Heavy Flamer + same Armaments. I’d change one the 5 Man MSU Crusaders to a Devies Squad with Triple Lascannon + Cherub.

 

My version of your list

Black Templar Battlelion

HQ

Marshall w/Pow(X) and CombiMelta. Warlord.

-Crusade Helm

Castallen w/StormBolter or BoltPistol, Teeth of Terra

 

Troops

2x Crusader Squad, 13 Man, Init w/ MeltaGun, Init w/ PowSword, SB w/PowSword.

—All Models with Chain. 7 Initaites and 6 Neophytes

2x Crusader Squad, 5 Man, Init w/Lascannon, Init w/ PlasmaGun, SB w/ Combi Plasma

 

Heavy

1x Devestator Squad w/ 6 Man. 3x Init w/Lascannon. Cherub

2x Land Raider Crusaders w/ MultiMelta, StormBolter

 

Vangaurd

HQ

Chaplain Grimaldus

 

Elite

2x Venerable Dreadnought w/ AssaultCannon, & DreadClose + StormBolter

Cenobyte Servitors

 

——

You’d have 52 Models deployed. 8 Drops Total. 6 Command Points.

If you wanted make back field MSU Crusaders more durable you could go Ven to Normal Dread. And make them 7 men. Also dropping a Lascannon from Devs to make VenDreads Cannon-Missile Dreads would leave you 1 point.

 

Or want HeavyFlamer you can drop 1 Lascannon and Cherub on Devies

Edited October 26, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Imperator Deus]

I can switch the Power Fist Sword Brother for a Power Sword easily enough. Forgive my ignorance, but how do you get Heavy/Special/Special in the 5-man MSUs? Can Sergeants take special weapons or do you give them a combi-weapon or something?

[Marshal Wolfhart]

Sergeants Swordbrethren can take combis, which function like full fledged special weapons in 8th (or -1 to hit if you fire both, the bolter and combi portion at the same time)

Edited October 27, 2017 by Marshal Wolfhart