"Grimdark"...what it means to you

[b1soul]

What does it mean to you...and how much of it do you like in your BL fiction? Do you think it's essential to the soul of 40K?

 

I think it's important to the setting...but it shouldn't overpower the setting.

[MyD4rkPassenger]

Great topic! I love talking about this kind of stuff and hearing other's opinions on it.  

 

I agree it shouldn't overpower the setting entirely.  Books like Dead Men Walking are amazing, but I don't want that much doom and gloom in all the books I chose to read.  The Cain series combines the Grimdark with lightheartedness I feel very well, albeit humor heavy more often than not.  

 

In my favorite books like Helsreach, Master of Mankind, Eisenhorn, and the Night Lords series, there was a large sense that the main cast could very much lose, and I feel that is a big part of the Grimdark vibe.  While it is more obvious in world ending battles like Armageddon and the Webway war, Eisenhorn and the Night Lords series presented it in a different way.  Eisenhorn often found himself plunged into an ever deepening spider's web with no clear idea of who or how to defeat the puppet master behind his struggle.  Additionally, the politics of the Inquisition and corners he had to cut to win added to this vibe of desperation.  I don't want to get too armchair philosopher with this one, but I feel Talos was fighting against degradation and Chaos in a sense.  His warband was depleting itself every raid and all of those he had known since the heresy were devolving into thralls of the gods or absolute psychopaths, something he greatly despised.  He wanted to retain the ways of old, in a universe that had killed that idea long ago.  

 

I just feel "Grimdark" is taking the setting more seriously, and not creating the "mary sue" effect.  I don't want people to think I hate humor, I adore the Cain series, or that I don't like a good hero story.  I just take a greater degree of enjoyment in what some could consider edgier storylines.  It's odd to put it this way but I like when whole chapters die, planets are lost to achieve victory, and the main characters sometimes win at great cost to the squad or themselves.  

Edited October 20, 2017 by MyD4rkPassenger

[Sete]

For example what I loved was the fact that Mankind God's were dead. Mankind was in a struggle for survival, that they would lose, but they would face that death with hate, spite and fighting. No Primarchs, no miracle tech, an empire that treated knowledge and innovation as heresy. Where ignorance and superstition reigned supreme.

A setting where life was the coin of the Imperium, and a single fragment of ancient tech would be more valuable than an entire world.

A setting where the mankind elite, seriously handicapped by old teachings tried to live up to the legends of old despite the failing gene seed and mutations.

 

But who needs grimdark when you have a guy with super high tech armour and super space marines In Stock for 10 millenia?

Edited October 20, 2017 by Sete

[bluntblade]

I find it hard to articulate what I like about grimdark and what it means to me. Although to pull a Mortarion and talk aboout the via negativa, one issue I have with the current changes is that there doesn't seem to be much struggle involved in making things better. The Primaris formulae should be dredged from the bowels of Mars at terrible cost, that sort of thing.

[Roomsky]

This will be rather 40k specific, and entirely subjective:

 

Heroism is no guarantee of victory. I wouldn't lump this in with universal fatalism, battles can be won, and satisfying narratives can be told in stories of loss. Beyond perhaps one or two events, the kind that become legend with time, I like to see vastly outnumbered forces crushed as they should be. Little victories are fine, like the crippling of a part of an enemy ship, or the assassination of the stories' individual antagonist. Overall though, loss should be the assumption walking into a story, not victory. Makes the victories that do occur that much sweeter, and increases the oppressiveness of the setting.

 

On the topic of heroism, everyone with more power than the governor of a space station should be evil by conventional morality. They can have redeeming traits, to be sure, but inquisitors put worlds to the torch for the actions of a few. The nobility is ignorant of the conditions of their populace, and care more for their petty politicking than ensuring the average fellow has their allotted nutri-paste. Beurocrats are more concerned with balancing books than the lives they dictate. The Ecclesiarchy is suicidally, murderously zealous. The Mechanicum would probably sell the lives of billions for a 2k era toaster. Such things help illustrate that humanity's views of good and evil have changed drastically in the far future.

 

I'm very much in the "humanity loses" camp, though I don't think Chaos is guaranteed the victory. The Imperium is shrinking, and the dying humanity is fighting tooth and nail to make their enemies bleed before they lose. If the Imperium was properly united, perhaps things would be different, but differing agendas and mountains of regulations ensure such a thing cannot happen. They dug their own grave, basically.

 

So basically: everyone is evil, stupid, and in the process of dying

[Kastor Krieg]

Dylan Thomas, 1914 - 1953

 

Do not go gentle into that good night,

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,

Because their words had forked no lightning they

Do not go gentle into that good night.

 

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright

Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,

And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,

Do not go gentle into that good night.

 

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight

Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

And you, my father, there on the sad height,

Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.

Do not go gentle into that good night.

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

[Jagus Kumkani]

It's hard to articulate to be honest. There are so many elements that appeal to me. But I'll try my best none the less.

 

For me its the uncertainty that swamps the Imperium. No matter what Imperial Warmachine throws at Chaos and the Xenos...they continue to come.

Even as dire as the situation is, the citizens of the Imperium continue to cling on. Imperial Soldiers, Space Marines, the noble Titan Princeps and its crews, the Mechanicus all continue to fight even when there is no hope of tomorrow. Guilliman and his Indomitus Crusade didn't even put a dent in the forces arrayed against the Imperium.

Still they hope and still they fight for the sake of surviving, and I find that noble. The Emperors finest can't even hope to beat back its enemies and still they never give up.

 

I think that's what the grim dark means to me.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Grimdark.... such an important aspect of 40k, and one that almost killed it for me. 

 

I am a long time fan of fantasy and sci fi (I've been reading it since long before most of you were born) and there are some things I like and some things I don't like.

I'd grown long ago tired of oppressive, grim sci fi where you die, the girl dies, everybody dies (this stuff was especially popular in the early 1970's). And then there was game fiction. To say I loathe game fiction is putting it mildly.*  Even a lot of the so called "good stuff" read like a dungeon crawl to me.

 

Then I ordered 40k fiction for my bookstore. I would pick one up, and open to the prologue, ".....laughter of thirsting god." Bummer.... back on the shelf you go. Then came 'Horus Rising'. Biggest seller I ever had. I couldn't order enough. So, I reluctantly picked it up and started to read just to see what the fuss was. I was sucked in like a mote of dust in a black hole.

 

Lovecraft meets Heinlein meets Herbert meets Cornelius Ryan meets T. H. White....... everything (almost) I love in an epic story flavored just right with "grimdark".

 

Grimdark is not the meal in 40k, it's the spice.... and what a spice!!

 

* special note.... It is never my intention to insult anyone's favorite genre. If game fiction is yours, more power to you. I respect that. Everything I write is just my opinion. My opinion and one dollar will buy you a very small cup of coffee....cheers

Edited October 20, 2017 by Brother Lunkhead

[b1soul]

I think in the long-run, Mankind has to lose...

 

The Imperium has lasted ten thousand years. Could it last a milliom years, ten million, a hundred million? Could it last geological time spans?

 

Grimdark kinda depends on how the Imperium eventually dies. Does it die peacefully of old age, or does Chaos consume it?

 

That said, Chaos loves the current state of the Imperium, both right before and after the advent of the Rift. It loves a hyper-militarised Imperium beset on all sides by horses of enemies. Chaos loves war and conflict and turmoil. Chaos doesn't like peace, be it the peace of prosperity or the peace of oblivion. When I speak of Chaos, I speak of the Chaos Gods.

 

The Tyranids want to annihilate the Imperium, as do the Orks. But I don't think Chaos does. Perhaps the end game of Chaos is to make the galaxy like the Eye of Terror, with its endless internal strife? It's already beginning with the Rift it seems.

[Ascanius]

For me, 8th Edition is the same tune as always, just with the volume turned up.

 

All of Cawl's new technological and biological miracles ultimately only allow the Imperium to maintain its grip on the status quo - without them, the effects of the Cicatrix Maledictum and the concomitant resurgence by Chaos would cripple it.

 

So, yeah, it's louder, and I'm sure some people would prefer it played at a lower and more atmospheric volume, but it's still the same song.

 

For me, the essence of the grim darkness of the far future is that there is only war because that's the rod humanity has made for its own back. Humanity is doomed and would be better off extinct, but instead countless generations suffer agony and oppression because of a totalitarian system continued in the name of the galaxy's ultimate control freak.

[Knockagh]

The over bearing heavy architecture. The unbearable lives lived by the common men and women. Widespread and accepted poverty. Blind obedience. The state controlling all aspects of life. Intense bureaucracy slowing progress to a crawl. A pall of fear hanging over society, fear of an impending apocalypse which is signposted by any change no matter how small. (So far it sounds like the UK in the 1970s, right!?)

 

Widespread militarisation, an aloof and savage ruling elite. Power of the priesthood rather than the power of faith.

[JH79]

(So far it sounds like the UK in the 1970s, right!?)

Bravo sir, bravo 

 

-

 

Obviously the meaning of this will be vastly different from person to person. As I've mentioned many times before (even when prodded in jest by our man ADB) I cannot help but rile against mankinds apparent impending doom. I want to see hope where others accept despair. I refuse to accept there isn't a way to push back Chaos, revive the big E and have him and big G give Abaddon the hardest tag team thrashing possible! Maybe that's me embracing Grimdark at it's best, because therein lies the greatest despair for me as a consumer, despite all that hope it'll likely never happen. Still there's always a chance lol 

 

Grimdark in smaller detail is following a lost squad of mysterious and underpowered Space Marine explorers, trapped in the cavernous remains of a space hulk! Fighting last stand battles against unknown alien foes and searching for glimmers of hope, finding honour in death, discovering of ancient relics of unknown origin / power... witnessing the passing of time in a way that makes the daily trudge of our reality seem fragmentary. All that funky jazz.

[Kinstryfe]

To me, it's equal parts ridiculous comedic potential and dramatic potential. It's a setting where things are so different from the modern world, yet so familiar, that it becomes absurd viewed from our modern day setting. The whole 30k/40k setting takes itself so seriously, it's so GRIM and DARK that it goes all the way around to being unintentionally hilarious. A few of my favorite examples...

 

Mankind rules the stars, runs an empire to rival any in galactic history, still stands despite constant violence on all sides, and yet NOBODY knows how to fix the Emperor's life support system. Oops.

 

The Thousand Sons are unparalleled masters of mystic information, with libraries only rivaled by the ancient Aeldari. They can explode Titans in a torrent of multicolored aetheric energy, make themselves invisible, command the will of Daemons, and literally keep copies of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein in their mystic libraries as an example of the perils of necromancy.

 

Mankind has access to 40 millennia of knowledge, can build starships and teleporters and death rays, but is so secure in its own intelligence that it doesn't ever question that Shakespeare may have written more than 3 plays.

 

Twenty posthuman demigods were created, and from them sprang millions of posthuman "offspring", and they revolutionized warfare. Virtually every enemy was soundly defeated. Human, xenos, demonic, almost every threat was defeated by the Astartes Legions. Humanity was poised to conquer the entire Galaxy. And then, the demigods had Daddy issues...

 

The whole setting is gloriously uncaring, harsh, and hellish, and has the good sense to have a sense of humor about itself the whole time.

[bluntblade]

You know, reading the reviews for The Death of Stalin, it's not far off how I'd like some of the politics on Terra to be handled.

[Ascanius]

 

Obviously the meaning of this will be vastly different from person to person. As I've mentioned many times before (even when prodded in jest by our man ADB) I cannot help but rile against mankinds apparent impending doom. I want to see hope where others accept despair. I refuse to accept there isn't a way to push back Chaos, revive the big E and have him and big G give Abaddon the hardest tag team thrashing possible! Maybe that's me embracing Grimdark at it's best, because therein lies the greatest despair for me as a consumer, despite all that hope it'll likely never happen. Still there's always a chance lol 

 

From my point of view, it's "grimdark" for another reason: the Emperor ain't no good guy. Revive him, have him defeat Abaddon, and humanity might be better off than it would be if Abaddon won, or the status quo were maintained - but the future would not be bright. At best, if the Emperor could achieve his apparent original goal, what you'd get is We or Brave New World, but with psychics as powerful as Malcador or Magnus.

 

Imagine a firm, irresistible psychic presence flattening out all human emotions, forever.

[Xisor]

One of the big issues, In the lore, I have is the use of Deus Ex Machina, either as a saviour, or in a less common form of twist disaster.

 

I think 40k works best when you can *see* the path to victory, the narrow line of the future (a is Dune), but you're continually beset and besieged. Little things go wrong.

 

Even salvation only buys a few more minutes, never a happily ever after. You might achieve the objective and win the war, but the costs are almost always pyrrhic at best.

 

Achieving anything beyond the tepid or lacklustre should come at an almighty struggle. (Pilgrims born in queues the or forefathers started in...)

 

Even then, achieving small things shouldn't be easy. The nightmarish bureaucracy etc.

 

The challenge, especially in writing stories, should be in portraying that sense and atmosphere without necessarily compromising the narrative itself.

 

(I found much of these my massive issues in the Uriel Ventris series. Either too easy, or too inconsequential in the wider setting that whatever was achieved was cheapened by lack of impact and cost. Probably why "Warriors of Ultramar" was my favourite.)

[Malios]

"Grimdark" for me is being thankful that I don't live in such a world.

 

Genestealer Cults by Peter Fehevari for example...

[MrDarth151]

Funny thing, I spend a lot of time thinking about the subject matter lately. The conclusion I've reached was quite simple.

 

Grimdark is a good addition to most stories taking place in the Warhammer 40k universe...

 

But it gets overdone. Frequently. And to the detriment of the themes and narrative.

 

That's why the great endeavour that was the Great Crusade that everyone laments passing off is basically the same as regular 40k, but with more self-delusions.

 

That's why the passing of The Emperor's dream in Master of Mankind is not really tragic, because we've had Chaos pull so many Diabolous ex Machinas over the years to invoke "Grimdark" that his plan utterly fails to be convincing, and we cannot even say that passing of his mortal domain is tragic either, because he is a bastard who considers stopping ethnic purges of civilian population to be beneath his notice. And it is supposed to be tragic.

 

Cause Grimdark. Gee, I'm now so moved by the uncaring tyrant losing a war he had never a chance to win to begin with.

 

Or how the entire thing of "40k cannot be fixed if few sensible people took charge" loses it's meaning when every other week we see them be blatantly incompetent by the real world standards, because Grimdark.

 

Why, I literally just went through the chapter of The Emperor's Legion in which a character claims that raising an army of five hundred thousands from Terra's population of quadrillions in just a decade is a great bloody achievement. To give you a comparison: Nazi Germany, near universally agreed upon as being wasteful and not truly competent when it comes to industry, with population of just below eighty millions managed to get four million soldiers in Heer active service in roughly the same timespan. Orders of magnitude smaller population. Orders of magnitude smaller industry, because Mars is just around the corner. Eight times better results.

 

Sol system, the centre of galaxy spanning Imperium of Mankind that has been at war for ten thousands of years. Less effective at raising troops than 20th century Germany. No wonder Cadia fell.

 

But alas. Competence of the characters is trumped by need for Grimdark. And this happens constantly. And it slowly kills this franchise for me.

 

Not even going to go into the metaphysics of the universe and how they blatantly embrace Nihilism. Which is just... mind blowing. Meaningful conflict is one of the core pillars of traditional writing, and 40k went "We are going to try as hard as we can to portray struggles of our characters as ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of things". That this goes against most basic writing tenets goes without saying.

 

So... yeah. I think the overt focus on making everything as grimdark as possible has served to the detriment of quality of writing in Black LIbrary works. Might be why I like Abnett's works so much.

Edited October 21, 2017 by MrDarth151

[bluntblade]

But suppose Terra's population of billions is already stretched? It's the capital of an empire that spans much of the Galaxy. It needs menials to do jobs that don't exist in our time because we don't have city-sized ships with the populations to match, bureaucrats to ensure the food and water for those dozens of billions is shipped in from other flipping star systems. Because it's that important, it requires a massive surveillance network. Aforementioned bureaucracy is so overloaded that actually processing additional recruits is a nightmare. Mars is inundated with demands for materiel from thousands of war fronts.

 

There are War Worlds which muster armies of millions. Terra is simply sparing what it can.

[MrDarth151]

But suppose Terra's population of billions is already stretched? It's the capital of an empire that spans much of the Galaxy. It needs menials to do jobs that don't exist in our time because we don't have city-sized ships with the populations to match, bureaucrats to ensure the food and water for those dozens of billions is shipped in from other flipping star systems. Because it's that important, it requires a massive surveillance network. Aforementioned bureaucracy is so overloaded that actually processing additional recruits is a nightmare. Mars is inundated with demands for materiel from thousands of war fronts.

 

There are War Worlds which muster armies of millions. Terra is simply sparing what it can.

 

You don't quite get the scale of what you are arguing.

 

The book literally refers to Terra as having population of quadrillions. Let's be generous here, and assume that it means two quadrillions by that. Just two. The lowest possible assumption.

 

That would mean that within a decade they managed to recruit one person for every four billion citizens.

 

You are looking at the population of current Earth and saying "Well, everyone's busy, so our army will have just two soldiers". I want you to consider for a second how ludicrous that is.

 

Believe what you want.

[bluntblade]

Kindly tone down the rudeness, please.

[MrDarth151]

Kindly tone down the rudeness, please.

 

*Shrug* I don't especially see what was rude about the post in question, but if you insist. Now please, stop derailing the thread.

[bluntblade]

The manner, not the words. Now, I'd be interested to hear Wraight give his reasoning and it's something I'll keep in mind when I come to read the book, but your previous form makes me sceptical about your claims. Namely that you insisted things and characters in MoM were quite different to how the author himself stated they should be viewed.

[Caillum]

No that wasn’t particularly rude. You did, however, manage to make your point much more eloquently in the second post (ie. 1 in 1 billion is a bit ridiculous).

 

With this being a subject about personal opinion, let’s all remember to keep things civil though, yeah?

[Ascanius]

Anyone who thinks the failure of the Emperor's plans is tragic doesn't understand the Emperor. It's tragic to people loyal to his vision, but it shouldn't be to us.