"Grimdark"...what it means to you

[MrDarth151]

Anyone who thinks the failure of the Emperor's plans is tragic doesn't understand the Emperor. It's tragic to people loyal to his vision, but it shouldn't be to us.

 

Anyone claiming to understand the Emperor is missing the point of deliberate ambiguity about Him.

 

With that said, the fact that you can say that the loss of Webway project, the best hope for stopping extinction and damnation of Humanity, isn't tragic should just about prove my point.

 

There is no real point to telling the story of conflict without meaning.

[mc warhammer]

 

Dylan Thomas, 1914 - 1953

 

Do not go gentle into that good night,

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,

Because their words had forked no lightning they

Do not go gentle into that good night.

 

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright

Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,

And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,

Do not go gentle into that good night.

 

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight

Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

And you, my father, there on the sad height,

Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.

Do not go gentle into that good night.

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

this. there’s something savage and moving about fighting on in the face of oblivion

 

it’s what life does

[b1soul]

BL has always been terrible at offering realistic numbers

 

The Imperium is a hyper-militarised state that puts Nazi Germany to shame...yet some crusades involve only tens of thousands of Guardsmen.

 

Even the loyalist SM number of one million is borderline ridiculous.

 

That said, I love 40K despite its inherent silliness

[Ascanius]

 

Anyone who thinks the failure of the Emperor's plans is tragic doesn't understand the Emperor. It's tragic to people loyal to his vision, but it shouldn't be to us.

 

Anyone claiming to understand the Emperor is missing the point of deliberate ambiguity about Him.

 

With that said, the fact that you can say that the loss of Webway project, the best hope for stopping extinction and damnation of Humanity, isn't tragic should just about prove my point.

 

My point is more . . . what makes you think the success of the Webway project was desirable? Because the Emperor claimed it was "the best hope for stopping extinction and damnation of humanity"?

 

Regardless of the details - for instance, whether the Emperor was blindsided by Horus's rebellion, foresaw Horus's rebellion and planned for it, counted on someone leading a rebellion and planned for that, deliberately engineered Horus's rebellion as a safety valve that he could plan for, or deliberately engineered Horus's rebellion as a mythmaking scheme to set himself up as the God who saved humanity from the Devil - there's one thing that I think there's no ambiguity about.

 

To wit: the Emperor offered a solution to "the problem of Chaos" which would have meant humanity's enduring a tyrannical, monomaniacal regime where freedom was mercilessly extinguished even if his plan had worked. You can't cut humanity off from the Warp, no matter where they're living, without crushing their emotional life and restricting their freedom of thought into approved channels.

 

It's like decreeing a prefrontal lobotomy as the solution to serious psychosis - a comparison I make advisedly, since it was originally thought to "cure" mental illness by disrupting the link between the emotional centre of the brain (the Warp) and the intellectual centre (rationality and psychic power) . . . which, of course, was not the case.

 

Yeah, a lobotomy might mean you're less dangerous to yourself or others, but there's no doubt that it means a severely diminished quality of life, to say nothing of the impossibility of any other treatment to the affliction.

 

I don't actually think the Imperium would have been that different in character if the Emperor had succeeded - it would have been just as ruthless, oppressive, and uncaring, just in a different mode.

[b1soul]

I think the success of the Webway project was probably less unpleasant than current 40K or a Chaos-worshipping humanity.

 

That said, the Emperor's vision of humanity probably clashes with our notions of individual rights and liberalism.

[Ascanius]

Yeah, better, I don't disagree, but not necessarily desirable - or better than species extinction, come to that.

[Scribe]

What does it mean to you...and how much of it do you like in your BL fiction? Do you think it's essential to the soul of 40K?

 

I think it's important to the setting...but it shouldn't overpower the setting.

 

I dont think its important to the setting....

 

I think it IS the setting.

 

The point of it is blind, wasteful, crushing, empty, nihilism.

 

Oddly, while McDarth finds the setting less to his liking due to too much GrimDark. I find the general thrust of the metaplot completely alien to GrimDark, and so have taken a break from the setting.

 

Weird :p

[RikuEru]

I think in the long-run, Mankind has to lose...

Hrm, my definition of grimdark goes further than that.

 

The Imperium is forever doomed to fight against its own imminent death.

Even with a Primarch returned and a new generation of Space Marines, there will be no win - no matter how many Crusades venture on and (re-)conquer worlds for the Imperium.

But the Imperium will never stop trying.

 

The Orcs have an incredible drive to conquer and beat all non-Orcs. They will fight for as long as there's one spore left on a world. They will conquer whole sectors and come together in evem bigger Waaaaghs. But they would never conquer the galaxy - they would kill each other due to infighting, long before that goal is reached.

We know the Necrons will probably never reclaim all of their Empires, rule over the galaxy and regain "life".

We know the Eldar's days of Glory are long past and they will never again be a huge, prospering civilization.

We know the Tau will probably never be a galaxy spanning Empire, because they'll be eaten or killed before that.

We know the Chaos Gods are forever waging war against the Materium, trying to rule it in its entirety - but they would never share and will hinder each other by infighting. (See Mortarion's Retreat to defend Nurgle's Domain)

We know the Tyranids will try to eat all biological matter in the Galaxy, but due to that, ALL lifeforms in the Galaxy will fight tooth and nail against them. Even Chaos.

 

BUT THEY WILL NEVER STOP TRYING!

None of them.

 

The "new" Era of 40k has lost nothing of its grimdark factor.

Guilliman is back and changing and trying to fix left and right. But the redundant bureaucracy and fanatical believes in the Imperium keep his changes to a minimum.

 

The Primaris Marines went on to a Hundred Year Long Crusade in Legion-Strength Numbers.

They were able to save hundreds of Imperial Worlds and replenish dozens of Marine Chapters.

But it matters little, because Chaos is more present than ever before.

'But the Primaris have more stable gene-seed and additional organs and are so Mary-Sue-like!', some might cry out. What does it matter when Chapter Homeworlds die out, they still lack practical experience and tactical flexibility, Daemon Primarchs walk among the enemy and the temptation of Chaos gets them just as easily as all Marines before them?

 

When -7- infected/turned Human Soldiers, not even Cultists, are enough to invite Nurgle's greatest Demons onto a Agriworld, that got turned into a hospital, DESPITE all safety measures the Imperium could possibly take...

THAT shows how futile the fight is and that hope is a mere lie.

[Xisor]

Regarding the raising of regiments on Terra, I read it differently. I saw it that they meant regiments raised *abnormally*. Presumably Terra is siphoning off regiments, but the specific intent to add new ones to the already tight schedule was the problem. It's a beuracratic nightmare, not starting from zero and building regiments, but starting with a plan already centuries in play (and with decades of modifications already competing for space), and *then* adding another on top of that.

 

Tieron, in that situation, was talking about an exceptional circumstance derived from "making a decision at the very top" to "seeing them fly off into space". Not: "there's an enemy in orbit, we need people to go fight them" - Juskina Tull, High Lord for the Chartist Captains, managed that pretty swiftly in the War of the Beast, albeit informally.

[DukeLeto69]

Others have already said many things I agree with but for me Grimdark is quite simple...

 

It is dystopian science fiction turned up to eleven! There is utter futility in all that mankind does as they are clearly ultimately doomed. They fight on because they want "just one more day" to cling on to their putrid lives.

 

W40k is the absolute antithesis of something like Star Trek (a vision of the future with hope for science and reason to ultimately prevail). Personally I have always hated Star Trek.

 

Grimdark is the embodiment of a dying species stubbornly refusing to go without a fight and this is reflected in the decaying grandeur of the architecture and what came before as well as the totalitarian politics demonstrating how human beings ultimately cannot really ceed control to others through democracy as in the end it is always about power and trying to control your own destiny (and in this case avert catastrophe which is inevitable).

Edited October 23, 2017 by Caillum
Please avoid political references

[Kinstryfe]

"The Primaris Marines went on to a Hundred Year Long Crusade in Legion-Strength Numbers.

They were able to save hundreds of Imperial Worlds and replenish dozens of Marine Chapters.

But it matters little, because Chaos is more present than ever before.

'But the Primaris have more stable gene-seed and additional organs and are so Mary-Sue-like!', some might cry out. What does it matter when Chapter Homeworlds die out, they still lack practical experience and tactical flexibility, Daemon Primarchs walk among the enemy and the temptation of Chaos gets them just as easily as all Marines before them?"

 

∆See, that's how I view the new stuff that so many people can't stand. A lot of people have said that Primaris and Guilliman returning and all of that isn't Warhammeresque because it's too bright and cheerful, but I've always seen it more like the above. It's a wave of hope for the Imperium. Instead of giant posthuman killing machines who semi frequently turn evil, the Imperium now has slightly more giant posthuman killing machines who will semi frequently turn evil. Because in 40k, nothing good lasts. The Aeldari fell, the Necrontyr fell, the height of human civilization has already fallen, and humanity is just too stubborn and stupid to realize that they're already dead.

[Brother Lunkhead]

"The Primaris Marines went on to a Hundred Year Long Crusade in Legion-Strength Numbers.

They were able to save hundreds of Imperial Worlds and replenish dozens of Marine Chapters.

But it matters little, because Chaos is more present than ever before.

'But the Primaris have more stable gene-seed and additional organs and are so Mary-Sue-like!', some might cry out. What does it matter when Chapter Homeworlds die out, they still lack practical experience and tactical flexibility, Daemon Primarchs walk among the enemy and the temptation of Chaos gets them just as easily as all Marines before them?"

 

∆See, that's how I view the new stuff that so many people can't stand. A lot of people have said that Primaris and Guilliman returning and all of that isn't Warhammeresque because it's too bright and cheerful, but I've always seen it more like the above. It's a wave of hope for the Imperium. Instead of giant posthuman killing machines who semi frequently turn evil, the Imperium now has slightly more giant posthuman killing machines who will semi frequently turn evil. Because in 40k, nothing good lasts. The Aeldari fell, the Necrontyr fell, the height of human civilization has already fallen, and humanity is just too stubborn and stupid to realize that they're already dead.

I agree. Abadon's 13th Black Crusade moved the doomsday clock up to one minute to midnight. Bringing Big Bobby G and his Primaris into the picture just moves the big hand on the clock back one minute. It's still two minutes to midnight and the Imperium of Man is still in a world of hurt.

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

Well, Abaddon uses the skull of Clone Horus as a coffee mug. That's grimdark. Or really funny, depending on your kind of humor. The path the Word Bearers started down a few decades before the heresy is pretty grimdark.

[MrDarth151]

 

When -7- infected/turned Human Soldiers, not even Cultists, are enough to invite Nurgle's greatest Demons onto a Agriworld, that got turned into a hospital, DESPITE all safety measures the Imperium could possibly take...

THAT shows how futile the fight is and that hope is a mere lie.

 

 

Truly? I found it frankly juvenile. It's like playing a D&D session with twelve year old kid as a GM who is so pissed off that his favourite Villain Sue can't seem to able to win that he will make up a skill on a spot that is tailor made to :cussing the party up, and will never show up again. All while going "Nuh-uh, can't beat my Dark Army of Dark Doom, they are just so cool and awesome!".

 

Ugh.

 

I am going to be frank on this aspect of Grimdark: I find Chaos to be Villain Sues that achieve victory thanks to writers blatantly bending narrative to allow them to win, and I don't find that particularly compelling storytelling. 

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm really upset that the Thomas poem has been completely ruined by racist internet on facebook, and now anytime its referenced for 40k it feels hollow and 4chan-y. Like Captain America's 'No You Move' and a plethora of other formerly enjoyable works. 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Marshal Rohr

[mc warhammer]

lol ok, i'll bite. what are the examples of blatant bending of the narrative in order for chaos to win? and can you also show that similar narrative bends don't also occur for the imperium/eldar/tau when they "win", please.

 

cheers

 

 

 

When -7- infected/turned Human Soldiers, not even Cultists, are enough to invite Nurgle's greatest Demons onto a Agriworld, that got turned into a hospital, DESPITE all safety measures the Imperium could possibly take...
THAT shows how futile the fight is and that hope is a mere lie.

 

 

Truly? I found it frankly juvenile. It's like playing a D&D session with twelve year old kid as a GM who is so pissed off that his favourite Villain Sue can't seem to able to win that he will make up a skill on a spot that is tailor made to :cussing the party up, and will never show up again. All while going "Nuh-uh, can't beat my Dark Army of Dark Doom, they are just so cool and awesome!".

 

Ugh.

 

I am going to be frank on this aspect of Grimdark: I find Chaos to be Villain Sues that achieve victory thanks to writers blatantly bending narrative to allow them to win, and I don't find that particularly compelling storytelling. 

 

 

 

lol ok, i'll bite. what are the examples of blatant bending of the narrative in order for chaos to win? and can you also show that similar narrative bends don't also occur for the imperium/eldar/tau when they "win", please.

 

cheers

[R_F_D]

Aaron Dembski-Bowden, The Emperor's Gift, Chapter 21 - that is the definition of the tone grimdark to me.

[mc warhammer]

Aaron Dembski-Bowden, The Emperor's Gift, Chapter 21 - that is the definition of the tone grimdark to me.

 

 

care to summarise? i couldn't finish TeG

[MrDarth151]

 

lol ok, i'll bite. what are the examples of blatant bending of the narrative in order for chaos to win? and can you also show that similar narrative bends don't also occur for the imperium/eldar/tau when they "win", please.

 

cheers

 

 

The retcons that allow them to achieve success on the scale they would not otherwise, like all of the Black Crusades suddenly being about Necron Pylons? Sudden empowerment of their forces for no reason other than "Grimdark!" like suddenly being able to summon gigantic host of Nurgle Daemons, including several Greater Daemons, with a total of seven unwilling sacrifices?

 

Being directly stated to win in the end no matter what?

[A D-B]

 

Being directly stated to win in the end no matter what?

 

Sometimes I wonder what people ever thought 40K was. Several non-Imperial factions have - integral in their lore - "And this is just the first wave; when the real deal comes, the Imperium won't be able to hold it back." 

 

The Tyranids. Chaos. The Necrons. Galaxy-spanning/ending threats "just around the corner". We'll never see those things happen, because of course we won't. That's not the point. But anyone can look to the inferences and themes and know any of them likely will. We've known for decades that when the Tyranids arrive, it's all over. If all the Necrons wake up like their lore says they're doing, it'd be all over. When the Golden Throne fails (first mentioned a decade ago, now) it'd be all over. And Chaos "won" the Heresy (or at best, lost it the least): the Dark Millennium of M41 is arguably Chaos's perfect victory. The setting exists because Chaos did its thing.

 

It's so, so weird to be one of the setting's lore folks and be told the point of the setting is this bizarre retcon. When we see opinions like that, we all look at each other and say stuff like "...what? Did you see th... Did he... What?"

 

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

Edited October 25, 2017 by A D-B

[Scribe]

As I noted, it's not important, it IS the setting. :)

[MrDarth151]

 

 

Being directly stated to win in the end no matter what?

 

Sometimes I wonder what people ever thought 40K was. Several non-Imperial factions have - integral in their lore - "And this is just the first wave; when the real deal comes, the Imperium won't be able to hold it back." 

 

The Tyranids. Chaos. The Necrons. Galaxy-spanning/ending threats "just around the corner". We'll never see those things happen, because of course we won't. That's not the point. But anyone can look to the inferences and themes and know any of them likely will. We've known for decades that when the Tyranids arrive, it's all over. If all the Necrons wake up like their lore says they're doing, it'd be all over. When the Golden Throne fails (first mentioned a decade ago, now) it'd be all over. And Chaos "won" the Heresy (or at best, lost it the least): the Dark Millennium of M41 is arguably Chaos's perfect victory. The setting exists because Chaos did its thing.

 

It's so, so weird to be one of the setting's lore folks and be told the point of the setting is this bizarre retcon. When we see opinions like that, we all look at each other and say stuff like "...what? Did you see th... Did he... What?"

 

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

 

 

Well, I have been introduced to the setting through the works of Dan Abnett, who, as most people, including the editors, if I recall our discussion on the matter, agree, does not precisely write 40k as most people do.

 

I also think you misunderstand my point. It's not that the Grimdark was retconned in, but that Grimdark causes retcons.

 

But seriously though. Is it so hard to understand why people would reject the "canon" where it interferes with their enjoyment of the franchise? People, as a general rule, dislike nihilistic stories. That's why so very few writers actually do those in any substantial way. And yes, that includes 40k. The theme of entire struggle being, essentially, pointless gets invoked very rarely.

 

Probably because it isn't particularly interesting, nor involving. Do you think you would find a lot of people invested in the franchise, particularly the biggest part of it that is the Imperium of Mankind, if you reminded them every other page that the conflict to which they dedicate substantial amount of time, investment and money is essentially meaningless spectacle to distract them from the core theme of the franchise? People don't want to believe that. That's why meaningful conflict being a core of drama is a lesson so often beaten into writers, in my personal opinion.

 

More so, it is not that hard to actually genuinely find very invocation of that theme in 40k or Horus Heresy, for that matter, rare. I've read, what, about fourth of total output of Black Library as of this moment, and I've to tell you, the moments where I felt that humanity was flat out doomed were not that common. I cannot actually think of a book that would invoke the theme in substantial way, barring The Master of Mankind.

 

Perseverance in the face of galaxy of horrors, on the other hand...

 

You mention the likes of Necrons and Tyranids, but what do they have to show for themselves? Invasions of Tyranid Hive Fleets have been beaten back. At a cost, yes, but never a crippling one. Necron fiefdoms are small on a galactic scale, with the biggest Dynasty not even a significant fraction of the galaxy, though whatever that will be changed with the new Codex remains to be seen, as Sautekh is supposed to be far bigger than the original eighty Tomb Worlds it consisted of.

 

And there are lines that can be interpreted as Imperium of Mankind having a fighting chance, if it manages to just hold back the darkness for long enough.

 

It's similar to how many people treat Imperium's title as the worst and most cruellest regime imaginable as an informed attribute, because it would require them to be stupid and self-destructive, as most historical evil regimes were. They are unsustainable beyond few decades, in our experience, so how could Imperium be that incompetent and survive ten thousand years?

 

Mind, the occasional Grimdark examples of "They really are that stupid after all!" do show up in both codexes and Black Library works, but I don't think trying to point out that people are sometimes acting so stupid in 40k that an average college student would do a better job is the point.

 

Can it be that people are just believing Imperial propaganda and ignoring the obvious? Perhaps, but I do not think taking the writing of authors at face value is something you can avoid.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

lol ok, i'll bite. what are the examples of blatant bending of the narrative in order for chaos to win? and can you also show that similar narrative bends don't also occur for the imperium/eldar/tau when they "win", please.

 

cheers

 

 

The retcons that allow them to achieve success on the scale they would not otherwise, like all of the Black Crusades suddenly being about Necron Pylons? Sudden empowerment of their forces for no reason other than "Grimdark!" like suddenly being able to summon gigantic host of Nurgle Daemons, including several Greater Daemons, with a total of seven unwilling sacrifices?

 

Being directly stated to win in the end no matter what?

 

 

on that last point, it was always implicit... the deck was always stacked in everyone but mankind's favour (oh and the eldar of course).

 

i don't want to comment on something i don't have full knowledge of, so i'll throw this open to the rest of the forum: have there been retcons for the other factions of late that compare to the ones for chaos? or is mrdarth right that chaos is getting unfair power ups all of a sudden?

Edited October 26, 2017 by mc warhammer

[mc warhammer]

 

 

Being directly stated to win in the end no matter what?

 

Sometimes I wonder what people ever thought 40K was. Several non-Imperial factions have - integral in their lore - "And this is just the first wave; when the real deal comes, the Imperium won't be able to hold it back."

 

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

 

 

i feel like it could be one (or a mix) of two things. there's a huge amount of 40k content out there and it is possible for someone who has only encountered a small or select amount to come away with a totally different idea of the concept than was intended. which isn't "wrong" as such.

 

also, sometimes when people have a powerfully rigid way of looking at things, they tend to look specifically for that thing and to find it even if it might not be there. it's a form of confirmation bias that often stands strong even in the face of overwhelming evidence of the opposite.

[mc warhammer]

 

People, as a general rule, dislike nihilistic stories. That's why so very few writers actually do those in any substantial way.

 

yeah, "winter is coming" will never catch on.

 

and i think fewer writers tackle nihilism, because its hard to pull off not because it won't make the new york times best seller list. thankfully mccarthy, coupland, satre, heidegger, derrida and chekov still gave it a red hot crack.

 

and i don't think anyone would ever disagree that the 40k setting is niche.

 

 

 

I've read, what, about fourth of total output of Black Library as of this moment, and I've to tell you, the moments where I felt that humanity was flat out doomed were not that common. I cannot actually think of a book that would invoke the theme in substantial way, barring The Master of Mankind.

 

this seems to me a micro v macro thing. tMoM deals with the overall fate of humankind, many of the 40k stories are smaller scale battles and wars.

 

i mean, we can all win at life every day. but we all gonna die in the end.

 

 

 

Perseverance in the face of galaxy of horrors, on the other hand...

 

which is what everyone on this board seems to love about 40k.