"Grimdark"...what it means to you

[b1soul]

Sure GW could change it, market for a younger crowd that didnt grow up during the 80's and 90's as Grimdark was formulated and codified

This will probably cause the franchise to move away from Grimdark as you describe it. In fact, I think it's already happening with 8th ed

 

Regarding BL, few stories focus on Grimdark, which is probably a good thing. Many stories have some Grimdark elements...but I find stuff like Wrath of Iron to be rare.

 

EDIT: I also think 40K is both a game and literature setting.

Edited October 27, 2017 by b1soul

[MrDarth151]

One more thing.

 

I feel that people might be interpreting my words unfavourably, so I want to make something as abuntantly clear as I can.

 

I do not want 40k setting to be, I believe the term is, Noblebright. That is taking things too far in the other direction.

 

What I want is a setting that doesn't indulge in Nihilism that renders most of what I've read completely meaningless, and what I want is a setting that is genuinely dark that cannot be improved upon, not one where I feel that the dark stems from people being stupid.

 

Like, say, Terra almost immediately facing mass riots that almost bring it down due to starving population because Lords of Terra decided that on a world meant to be fortress cathedrals are better investment than emergency food silos.

 

Grimdark stupidity undermines one of the very cores of Grimdark theme: That this is the best we can do. That things actually cannot be better. Because it portrays people as idiots that make decisions so abundantly wrong it is clear to a completely average person, not the ones that supposedly gained their positions on actual merit.

[Loesh]

I'v always viewed 40k's grimdarkness as comical in it's extremes, though not necessarily nihilistic. Does what we do here and now mean less because of the sun eventually expanding or the heat death of the universe? or because in X amount of time it becomes hilariously unlikely that we don't get by a meteor and wiped out? No of course not, the journey and the people we meet along the way is what matters. The end is, and always has been, kind of irrelevant to me. Reading about why the Imperium is dying is just a backdrop and added context to the joy and pain of the people around it, the war being a loss is just a forgone conclusion that adds to the people fighting against it's destruction and fighting for the end to come faster.

[b1soul]

Unless the Imperium figures out how to transcend time itself, it will eventually fall.

 

Say it "defeats" Chaos via the Webway project, is the Imperium going to last for a hundred thousand years after that, a million years, a hundred million years?

 

No, most likely it will fall prey to some form of internal decay or strife (be it entropy, civil war, rebellion) and Chaos will eventually worm its way back and reassert itself as a major threat. And there's always the incoming Great Devourer of course.

 

It is most unlikely, if not impossible, for the Imperium to achieve species immortality. That said, if the Imperium under Guilliman could usher in another era of great strength relative to its foes (like the post-Scouring Imperium), that would count as a major victory. Perhaps that might be able to reset the clock for the next few millennia. This is possible the best case scenario Guilliman could hope to achieve...a Second Scouring.

 

With all that said, we know that humanity is perhaos the Chaos Gods' favourite play-thing. Thus I don't think human species extinction is something they'd want. The Imperium might fall, but humanity is going to be around for a long time.

Edited October 28, 2017 by b1soul

[mc warhammer]

Back to this again.

 

 

 

MrDarth151, on 27 Oct 2017 - 12:27 AM, said:

 

Game of Thrones is not nihilistic. That's why we treat GRRM saying things like "Yeah, the last two volumes are 700 pages descriptions of snow falling down on the corpses of entire cast" as jokes, rather than serious promises.

 

 

the parallels can be drawn. its an amoral universe. nobody ever "wins". there are no heroic rewards that outweigh villainous gains.

 

but there are concepts of loyalty, honour and belief despite all that. though ASoFaI often shows that those concepts are foolish and wasted, perhaps more than 40k.

 

But that... Okay, time out. What do you think existential nihilism is? Because what you describe here is not existential nihilism.

 

We can say that's a moral nihilism, but that is also arguable, considering how the books are written.

 

 

 

40k also does not tackle existential nihilism like Satre or Heidegger. And thank the Emperor on the Golden Throne for that, hundreds of books in that vein would turn the setting into being virtually unreadable

 

 

no it doesn't, but some of those other books that you've glossed over do. and some have proven to be both critically acclaimed and popular.  ya cheeky little cherry picker you.

 

Talk about that which you know. I'm simply far more familiar with the works of Satre and Heidegger. Comes with the territory.

 

Have you read Satre, for example? Classic. Quite intellectually stimulating. Fascinating from the point of existentialism. And also a chore to read. For me, and I've read more philosophy than most people will in their lifetime.

 

Existential literature is heavy. It isn't something you want to base your franchise around.

 

 

 

Oh, it fits perfectly. Existential nihilism stems from the meaninglessness of existence.

 

40k is the universe where your action will never improve the greater state of affairs. You will be born, you will live for whatever time, your actions will achieve nothing of value, at best preserving a regime so horrible it isn't worth defending, and cause another generation of humanity to be born to lead miserable lives that will also not achieve anything, until the Emperor finally fails, humanity dies, and everyone gets to enjoy their souls being eternally tortured by the neverborn. 

 

Like the full Grimdark interpretation of 40k all you like, but let us not pretend it's somehow anti-nihilistic. Anti-nihilism would require character actions to matter. And they don't. The characters are simply ignorant enough of how the universe works, and self-deluded enough to believe otherwise.

 

And. They. Are. Wrong. Really, saying things like that makes it seem like you want to have a cookie and eat a cookie at the same time: Having hardcore grimdark setting, while ignoring the narrative implications that logically stem from having a setting like that.

 

 

 

40k is also a universe of several sides, so that description of the universe is pretty rosey for some.

 

 

And I feel you are missing my point.

 

 

again, actions do matter on a personal level even against the greater framework. it's really not that different to how our every day actions matter, despite the fact that we will end up 6 feet under one day. despite that truth, you don't seem to have curled up into a ball. you're on a message board fighting the good fight.

 

Death has a little meaning when it comes to existential nihilism. The metaphysical aspect of our existence is largely unknowable.

 

This is a mistake I've seen made by both writers and readers of the 40k. Death comparisons, entropy comparisons, do not really hold weight. You are not arguing them when taking up Grimdark in 40k. Every person born into 40k universe is sentenced, from birth, to an eternity of torture. You cannot save, they cannot save themselves, and this fate is unavoidable.

 

 

the relative ignorance of characters does not affect that. it might add to the tragedy depending on how you interpret the text. actions still have meaning. they still have consequence.

 

What meaning? What consequences?

 

 

and that's where a healthy debate on 40k as nihilistic fiction can take place. despite the ultimate "truth" of the universe, i'd argue that the actions and beliefs of the characters don't always or necessarily enforce a nihilistic view or theme. and yes, that is important maybe even moreso in reaction to that larger framework

 

And I'd argue that just because you choose to ignore the greater theme, it doesn't stop being there.

 

How is that any different from what I do? You tell me those actions and beliefs run contrary to the nihilistic theme, and I ask how, exactly? Winning or losing, you are still going to end up as Daemon chow. What does it matter that you grant people additional twenty years of existence, if they are still doomed post-mortem? You only allow them to create more souls for the pyre.

 

Good, any good, you might achieve is ultimately pointless. This isn't argument about entropy. Entropy is at it's core ANTI-nihilistic, because if we all die and there is nothing beyond that, then it matters how we lived our lives and how did we influenced the lives of others. Your actions matter.

 

In 40k? The very act of allowing your child to be born is an act of supreme malice and nothing you will ever do will make up for it. Having off-spring is tantamount to sentencing another human being to eventual eternity of suffering. How will you make up for it? By making their lives in the materium a slight bit less miserable, or few years longer? What does that achieve?

 

Remember the last word of The Emperor of Mankind before his entombment upon the Golden Throne?

 

"Now all of you go! You know your duties. Execute them well. The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!"

 

You know what I want from 40k? I want the universe where this:

 

"Now go! Kill every last human that still lives in this galaxy of terrors, and salt the earth so that we can never rise again. Ensure that Humanity is extinct!"

 

Is NOT a morally superior option. Which, in the current canon? It is. The best thing you can do for humanity in 40k universe is to wipe them out.

 

 

 

 

 

I find your interpretation of 40k boring, illogical and breaking my suspension of disbelief. So I will not adhere to it, since I don't precisely plan on suddenly starting to hate 40k, because fans of the franchise have taken upon themselves the task of convincing me that my favourite franchise actually sucks.

 

 

 

the beautiful thing is, all interpretations are valid in their own right

 

it's funny and...weird...that you're pretending that the fans of the franchise spontaneously tracked you down in order to harass you when you made the effort to come here and challenge one of the established fundamentals of the franchise as condescendingly as possible.

 

now that's what i call grimdark

 

 

It's not really condescension. It's bitterness.

 

Grimdark to me, is making it plain that our values, 21st century ones, have no place, and are detrimental to existence.

 

Yeah, this would work a lot better if Grimdark wasn't constantly portrayed as less effective than the alternative solutions.

 

 

for some reason, "mulitquote" doesn't work on my browser, so rather than do this manually as i have each time up to now, i'll go with ye olde bullet points:

 

• those authors i listed covered moral nihilism, existential nihilism or epistemological nihilism. we hadn't defined what form of nihilism you'd meant up to that point.

 

•  whether or not you'd read them all, you must have heard of them. i mean, fekking chekov. mccarthy! these guys are famoz. it suggests some sort of market for those themes.

 

•  yes, satre was a big part of my degree. and yes, heavy going. but, satre was only one of a half dozen examples i mentioned.

 

• you might not want to base a franchise around "teh grmdak" but its more than obvious that it works. i mean...here we are. when conceiving a franchise, what can often be more important than the moral or philosophical themes is to carve out an identity. a niche. and grimdark as a brand is immediately recognisable and distinct. as someone who has written and worked on a couple of tv franchises, i think it's a clever move.

 

• 40k isn't a fable or myth where the "eternity of torture" is part of a moral lesson or result of one's actions. what is the framework you're using to deconstruct or evaluate the premise? there's a lot of talk from you about the "moral". you're obviously university educated, what discourse are you bringing to this? what do you look for in fiction?

 

• lets imagine that the 40k reality is ours- we are all eternally doomed and just ignorant of it. is all of this not worth having? i mean, yes, eternal suffering but...message boards though.

 

as for being bitter, i can't empathise. 40k is a bit of fun for me. weirdly enough, i find it more escapist than most other fiction. a lot of it is ridiculous, but that's what makes it great. i can't imagine picking the most shadowy corner of a room to mope over it or trying to drag others over as they wander by. but each to their own.

[Brother Lunkhead]

As for me, I like a little hope as I'm down to my last bolt round, single-handedly fighting for the survival of the Imperium of Man. But, that's just me.... or maybe it's you too. Or maybe you're one of the myriad foe, gleefully (or stoically) plotting the downfall of man. It's still two minutes to midnight in a grimdark universe. No matter which side you are on, no matter if you subscribe to the idea that in the end all is death and darkness, or you believe in ultimate salvation, it's really the struggle that matters. At least for me, that is what the game is about....the struggle.

 

Let's face it. If ever the story gets to midnight, it's game over. The Imperium dies in an orgy of death and destruction, and Games Workshop bids us a fond farewell...."So long gang, and thanks for all the cash!"  Ooorrrr.... The golden throne fails, the Emperor regenerates and in a great psychic blast destroys all of the foes of man and ushers in a new noblebright world of hope and prosperity.....like.....like.....STAR TREK....... and we don't want that either, now do we? 

[Adeptus]

I don't think you can separate grimdark from 40K. Grimdark IS 40K. It's the setting. Writing a 40K story that didn't feature any grimdark elements would be like writing a pirate story with no ships, no rum, no pillaging or plundering or treasure hunting etc. Grimdark is simply the catch-all term that covers humanities existence in the galaxy in the 41st millennium.

 

One more thing.

 

I feel that people might be interpreting my words unfavourably, so I want to make something as abuntantly clear as I can.

 

I do not want 40k setting to be, I believe the term is, Noblebright. That is taking things too far in the other direction.

 

What I want is a setting that doesn't indulge in Nihilism that renders most of what I've read completely meaningless, and what I want is a setting that is genuinely dark that cannot be improved upon, not one where I feel that the dark stems from people being stupid.

 

Like, say, Terra almost immediately facing mass riots that almost bring it down due to starving population because Lords of Terra decided that on a world meant to be fortress cathedrals are better investment than emergency food silos.

 

Grimdark stupidity undermines one of the very cores of Grimdark theme: That this is the best we can do. That things actually cannot be better. Because it portrays people as idiots that make decisions so abundantly wrong it is clear to a completely average person, not the ones that supposedly gained their positions on actual merit.

I think it's worth mentioning though, that throughout history and even today many people in power have not achieved their position through merit and many times people in power make very stupid decisions.

 

We don't need all our characters to be intelligent and wise and always making good decisions. What we need instead is for stupid decisions to be displayed as stupid, so we as readers can groan and say "Oh, if only you'd done the right thing!". Portraying stupid decisions as good ones (and not from an in-universe sychophantic point of view) is bad for everyone involved.

[b1soul]

"What I want is a setting that doesn't indulge in Nihilism that renders most of what I've read completely meaningless, and what I want is a setting that is genuinely dark that cannot be improved upon, not one where I feel that the dark stems from people being stupid."

 

I think this is a valid point.

[mc warhammer]

"What I want is a setting that doesn't indulge in Nihilism that renders most of what I've read completely meaningless, and what I want is a setting that is genuinely dark that cannot be improved upon, not one where I feel that the dark stems from people being stupid."

 

I think this is a valid point.

 

 

to a point, yeah. but "being stupid" is a fundamental human thing. again, some of the most enduring stories in western literary canon are filled with characters being stupid.

 

it's our right to make dumb choices.

 

where i can agree with this, is that the writing needs to adequately allow us to understand or empathise with said stupidity.

[b1soul]

It would be the degree of stupidity and whether it breaks suspension of disbelief

[Adeptus]

It would be the degree of stupidity and whether it breaks suspension of disbelief

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" - Einstein

[mc warhammer]

 

It would be the degree of stupidity and whether it breaks suspension of disbelief

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" - Einstein

 

 

 

pretty sure that quote is apocryphal, but i appreciate it nonetheless

[mc warhammer]

 

We don't need all our characters to be intelligent and wise and always making good decisions. What we need instead is for stupid decisions to be displayed as stupid, so we as readers can groan and say "Oh, if only you'd done the right thing!". Portraying stupid decisions as good ones (and not from an in-universe sychophantic point of view) is bad for everyone involved.

 

 

sounds like a randian's dream

 

so, a nightmare really

[b1soul]

Let's be real here...a certain level of stupidity is in keeping with human nature, whereas past a certain point, it strays from reality. Would you really want a story overflowing with "infinite stupidity"?

[Adeptus]

Let's be real here...a certain level of stupidity is in keeping with human nature, whereas past a certain point, it strays from reality. Would you really want a story overflowing with "infinite stupidity"?

I think there could be scope for a really interesting tragedy where the heroes do all the right things and save the day just to have all their efforts undone by their superiors making an infuriatingly stupid decision.

 

The main risk of such a story is creating a meaningful story that isn't utterly devalued by the protagonists ultimate failure. You'd need to frame it as a story about the characters development and personal journey, and about their interactions with other characters, rather than straight bolter porn.

 

It could get even more interesting if there were a sequel where the infuriatingly stupid decision is revealed as being necessary because of factors we weren't aware of, and then the characters have to come to terms with that.

[Xisor]

NB: part of the inherent problem with the setting is that Grimdark can't be as all-encompassing as we might think. After all: babies still get made*.

 

What Scribe's arguing is somewhat at odds with the "Chaos is entropy" view I outlined before. Overall, the system tends towards Chaos. But locally you can have victories.

 

Ynnead is here, the Eldar are saved!**

 

Guilliman is back, the Imperium is saved!***,****

 

New technology, Marines massively improved!*****

 

In short: imagine you have five apples. Two are rotten. You can save one of the rotten ones, but the price is two further apples rot. "We've saved an Apple!******" is *less* Grimdark than "We still have three good apples" only on an extremely superficial level.

 

* I realise there are unpleasant possibilities here, but I think it's judicious to acknowledge, reflect, and deftly sidestep those for now.

** Only after they all die. Ynnead is horrifyingly daemonic, looks Slaaneshi, is destroying Craftworlds.

*** Even before Guilliman gets to the palace, the bulk of Terra is afflicted by mass unrest, starvation, daemonic outbreak, and more.

**** Guilliman was brought back by a Mechanicum madman and heretek, keeps company with... Cypher, an Eldar renegade, an emissary of an alien god, and the scions of a famous trickster god. Nothing can possibly go wrong.

***** 'Improving' on those Thunder Warriors sure correlated with everything working out well for the masses of humanity down the line...

****** You now only have two good apples, of five, of which one that was once rotten now isn't.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Xisor

[Xisor]

It would be the degree of stupidity and whether it breaks suspension of disbelief

My suspension of disbelief is broken often enough out here in reality; it's strange that we demand continuity and integrity in fiction when we know the real world is a whole lot more idiotic (and genius) than we'd tolerate in our fiction reading!

Edited October 28, 2017 by Xisor

[Sete]

"**** Guilliman was brought back by a Mechanicum madman and heretek, keeps company with... Cypher, an Eldar renegade, an emissary of an alien god, and the scions of a famous trickster god. Nothing can possibly go wrong."

 

Nothing went wrong tho. Absolutely nothing.

 

Guilliman reached Terra and it's now the Lord Commander of the Imperium.

 

Ynarii did their thing got a god and left.

 

The heretek madman ushered a new age of technology and development.

Chyper escaped using his plot shield.

And the actions of the trickster God agents did their thing. With a gate on Luna. lol. On the moon!

 

It was impossible for them to have a gate at Macragge. But sure it's fine on the moon. Sigh...

 

Point is, nothing went wrong. Zero, Nada...

Edited October 28, 2017 by Sete

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

I would say plenty went wrong. We just haven't heard about it yet. I'm thinking that there were a few fist fights that happened in some chapters between the new guys and the old guard. Cawl might be a genius, but I doubt he tailored the training for the primaris marines to such an extent that they would easily fit with their "parent" chapter.

What would a marine created on mars know of the stories told by the Fellhand?

Growing a beard, long hair, and painting your armor the right color won't make you a Space Wolf.

I wouldn't be surprised that some chapters suffered unnecessary casualties because the "new" marines that joined them had to be retrained on the job.

The White Scars during the Heresy are a good example of the trouble a force can have when recruits are trained using different philosophies with the recruits that were drawn from the Luna Wolves having trouble adjusting to the fluid style of war the Scars practice.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Grimdark, Stupidity, Nihilism.... what exactly are we talking about here? These are all just story elements and background. They are all elements that drive stories or give atmosphere to stories. But, they are not the totality of 40k.

 

When I first looked at 40k fiction, I was turned off by the nihilism that I perceived as permeating the grimdark universe. It seemed like a total downer to me. Then I realized that I didn't have to subscribe to the idea that nihilism was absolute. It was all a matter of perspective. It didn't matter if most or all of the GW authors and powers that be subscribed to the ultimate triumph of chaos and death. If you believe that all must end in chaos and death, and that works for you, GREAT! If you believe that the flicker of light at the end of the tunnel is hope and NOT a freight train coming headlong to smash your hope. that's GREAT too. There's room for both views. No one can make you choose. Believe in hope. Believe in nihilism. That's YOUR power in this grimdark universe that we all love.

 

If every story ended in chaos and death, or ended with some character doing something stupid that lead to chaos and death, that would bore me and I'd stop reading 40k lit. The other side is also true. If every story ended in sunshine and bird song, that would get old quick too. Ultimately, these are all just tropes that move the story along.

 

Anyway.... that's just my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it 

[Jareddm]

 

Let's be real here...a certain level of stupidity is in keeping with human nature, whereas past a certain point, it strays from reality. Would you really want a story overflowing with "infinite stupidity"?

I think there could be scope for a really interesting tragedy where the heroes do all the right things and save the day just to have all their efforts undone by their superiors making an infuriatingly stupid decision.

 

The main risk of such a story is creating a meaningful story that isn't utterly devalued by the protagonists ultimate failure. You'd need to frame it as a story about the characters development and personal journey, and about their interactions with other characters, rather than straight bolter porn.

 

It could get even more interesting if there were a sequel where the infuriatingly stupid decision is revealed as being necessary because of factors we weren't aware of, and then the characters have to come to terms with that.

You should absolutely read Fire Caste, if you haven't already.

[Ascanius]

I am forthright about my interpretation of the setting being much more on the "humanity would be better off extinct than living like this" side of the scales, but I don't think MrDarth151's extremely pessimistic interpretation is supportable.

 

Human souls aren't condemned to an eternity of suffering at the hands of daemons after death; the Warp isn't like the most extreme visions of Christian Hell. The average human soul, barring any possible truth to the notion that the Emperor gathers the faithful to his breast, is torn apart upon death - but it ceases to exist sooner or later. It's only those souls that have sufficiently enraged daemons in life that get "preserved" for longer periods of torture.

 

The reason I'm on Team Human Extinction for the 40K universe is because of the enormous cruelty of life in the Imperium, for the vast majority of people alive at any given time, and the impossibility of replacing the Imperium with a better system - not because the Imperium is necessary, the only way for humanity to survive (that's buying into the Imperium's own mythology), but because there's no way to overthrow or reform it without causing species extinction.

 

The Imperium is like a bus that's been driven partially off a cliff. Only if everybody stays exactly where they are will it remain balanced and not tilt over the edge, but that also means no-one is ever getting off the bus and back onto solid ground - and the bus driver is a desiccated corpse sitting up the front.

[b1soul]

 

It would be the degree of stupidity and whether it breaks suspension of disbelief

My suspension of disbelief is broken often enough out here in reality; it's strange that we demand continuity and integrity in fiction when we know the real world is a whole lot more idiotic (and genius) than we'd tolerate in our fiction reading!

Again, a certain degree of stupidity is in keeping with human nature. No one says that people in reality or in fiction have to be smart all the time. Far from it. You might be straw-manning here.

 

That said, if you look at reality...

 

1. Some of the accused "stupidity" is really not that stupid and may reflect the observer's own ignorance of certain factors.

 

The world is not bursting at the seams with idiocy. That is an exaggeration, and a very catchy sound-bite, but people who genuinely think that may be revealing their own lack of understanding or their own elitist attitudes. In particular, most people are surprisingly smart when their survival is on the line.

 

2. Almost all real-world "stupidity" is explainable and thus believable, because reality involves a multitude of complex factors and from complexity, logical explanations for that "stupid" behaviour may be derived.

 

3. As for real-world stupidity that truly is inexplicably moronic...it's actually not that common because human beings are, overall, the most intelligent species on this planet, despite the presence of some stupid individuals who have managed to evade natural selection.

 

Yes, such morons exist but I wouldn't want them to become a staple in BL fiction or a convenient plot device to activate level 9000 Grimdark. I don't think they ever have been...but I think this discussion has moved on to the general principle of "what level of stupidity in BL fiction would be acceptable".

 

I say some stupidity is fine, but you have to draw a line somewhere. You'll notice that serious film and literary critics do not take too kindly to excessive stupidity in their mediums.

 

That is because stupidity past a certain point no longer resembles reality and becomes unintentionally hilarious. As far as I know, 40K is not slapstick, so I would prefer that it didn't go down this path.

 

Fiction, moreso than reality, should deliver a good story. I therefore do believe that in general, serious fiction should respect suspension of disbelief and not break it, that certain levels of silliness should be avoided...but if you fellas do not, and think any level of stupidity goes, we'd have to agree to disagree.

Edited October 29, 2017 by b1soul

[mc warhammer]

 

 

3. As for real-world stupidity that truly is inexplicably moronic...it's actually not that common because human beings are, overall, the most intelligent species on this planet, despite the presence of some stupid individuals who have managed to evade natural selection.

 

 

 

i dunno man, i do at least one dumb thing a day. it's practically a quota i need to fulfill.

 

luckily, none of mine have been life threatening.

 

on a general note: one thing i have noticed, especially in fandom and audiences is that they tend to forget they have information that the characters don't have themselves. they also have an emotional distance from events that might allow a more rationale reaction to things that have pushed characters out of control. they also seem to have trouble coming to terms with differences in thought being an ok thing.

 

i  suspect that most of the utterly competent commentators would perform as or more poorly in those situations themselves.

 

most of the time, at least in my circles, these are the same guys who enjoy telling victims of crime what they should have done to avoid becoming victims in the first place.

Edited October 29, 2017 by mc warhammer

[Xisor]

Those are all great points, you lot.

 

I watch "The Death of Stalin" on Friday, and thought of this topic a lot watching it. Like Iannucci's other stuff (The Thick of It, principally), the "utter stupidity" of it is carefully realised.

 

As said: the stupidity arises from various competing constraints, albeit also exacerbated by actual idiocy (incompetence really; not quite understanding or having the time and energy to actually understand the situation).

 

The reason it's so alluringly plausible (even if also inaccurate Where facts are concerned),is because it teases out those threads of ambition, desire, competence, and urgency, amongst other things.

 

To that end, and linking directly to what mc warhammer says about fandom generally, is that many of the stories (especially The Gathering Storm narrative), presents only the sweep of things, not the intimate details.

 

For example: I routinely hark on about how Carl is an obvious heretic to be stopped at first opportunity.

 

But, quite obviously, there's a lot of subtle or obscure reasons why dealing with him isn't an option.

 

And I think that exposes Scribe's issues fairly plainly: the "text" as written would be a whole lot more palatable, stated facts remaining the same, if a lot more of those mitigating factors are mentioned or alluded to. In short if it was a bit more detailed.

 

"The Death of Stalin" would be a whole lot more boring if it were literally a collection of set pieces: some knocks on doors, a few votes concluding committee meetings, some people dying.

 

----

 

Personally, my solution would be twofold.

1- Expand the timelines (e.g. from 4 pages to... 12?) to be utterly packed with all sorts of outrageous nonsense.

2- The rest of the fluff section is composed of a few 'expanding details' on those events, evoking context if not properly dealing with it at length.

 

The Gathering Storm would be a whole lot cooler and easier to digest this way.

 

012000M42: St Celestine & Trazyn the Infinite rescue the leftovers at Cadia and escape into the Webway. Cadia Falls.

 

<1 page actually detailing some of the bizarre coincidences and competing necessities for it to happen>

 

----

 

The specific points are digestible, even if daft, especially when they lampshade "this isn't anywhere near the whole story".

 

----

 

But TGS books were a *touch* lacking in that regard. ;)

Edited October 29, 2017 by Xisor