New FAQ

[Chris521]

I've been running a few simulations for the whole commissar thing.  I'm not gonna post the data since I'm not 100% sure that I haven't made a mistake.  On average the commissar will help conscripts against any damage number taken.  They have the largest effect at 6 or 7 wounds taken.  At 5 or fewer wounds the chance of overkill narrows the gap a bit but still, the average is better with a commissar.  At 8 and above, the commissar will save an average of 3 conscripts ( this should be expected since Ld8-Ld4 - 1 BLAM=3) .

 

When it come to infantry squads, the difference is much smaller.  Small enough that I probably won't use commissars at all for them. Take the flags.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Chris521

[wulfgar hammerfist]

How about this as a morale mitigation strategy?

 

Lord Commissar provides base LD 9.

Command Squad with Regimental Standard provides +1 LD within 6".

Uriah Jacobus provides another +1 LD within 6".

 

Each of those elements combined make Guard infantry LD 11 within 6".  That is decent I think.  You'll have to watch out for snipers and psychic powers but you can build in some redundancy.  Is it as cost efficient as it was before? Nope, but it is what it is.

[OnboardG1]

Is Aura of Discipline still a rule in the Codex? (Sorry, only got Index.) if so, any unit at risk of Summary Execution should be taking their morale check at Ld 8, so would have to take three casualties to be liable to potential morale failure.

 

Number of casualties :- chance of worse outcome in morale phase (including the victim of the SE rule):

 

3 :- 1/36

4 :- 1/9

5 :- 1/4

6 :- 4/9

7 :- 25/36

So you need to more or less have your squad shot off the table for a 10 man squad to have a higher chance of a bad roll?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Plus Mordian/Catachan Doctrines for additional +1Ld conditionally, and the Valhallan Doctrine halving the number of losses taken for the purpose of Morale.

[Zectz]

I think 90% of these were expected. The Commissar nerf was a bit too much I think... but it's not the end of the world. Lord Commissar LD9 aura instead of 8 + Regmental Standards make leadership checks a non issue. Even easier for Catachan/Mordian. On a side note I'm really leaning towards Sergeant Kell right now I think he's great value with this nerf to Commissars.

 

Send in the next wave nerf is completely rediculous though and did not expect that. This is what happens when you have players who don't have a clue about Guard blabber mouth and cry online. I'm a firm believer of what comes around goes around. Remember that when the next few codexes get released.

 

That said the Valhallan relic just got a lot better now. So it's not the end of the world for Valhallan players.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Zectz

[Mitchverr]

I would say if you want to mitigate, consider bringing a DKK detatchment fielding Venner, 12 inch LD9 bubble, give him a command squad with regiment banner, LD10 bubble (and +1 attack for all DKK in 6 inch) and bring a couple of engineer squads (imo best guard squad in the game) as a elites detatchment. +1 CP and also some of the better troops(best troops imo for guard outside of scion), IIRC DKK dont pay the higher tax for BS3+ plasma still either.

 

Can also add in the priest and a generic DKK infantry squad with platoon command to give him a LD 12 12 inch bubble i believe, lol.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Mitchverr

[OnboardG1]

Plus Mordian/Catachan Doctrines for additional +1Ld conditionally, and the Valhallan Doctrine halving the number of losses taken for the purpose of Morale.

Catachans actually don't have much use a Commissar now (which is very fluffy). Might take that reg standard now for hard to break bubble wrap.

[Plasmablasts]

 

Is Aura of Discipline still a rule in the Codex? (Sorry, only got Index.) if so, any unit at risk of Summary Execution should be taking their morale check at Ld 8, so would have to take three casualties to be liable to potential morale failure.

 

Number of casualties :- chance of worse outcome in morale phase (including the victim of the SE rule):

 

3 :- 1/36

4 :- 1/9 => 3/36

5 :- 1/4 => 6/36

6 :- 4/9 => 10/36

7 :- 25/36 => 21/36

So you need to more or less have your squad shot off the table for a 10 man squad to have a higher chance of a bad roll?

I think I got some of those numbers wrong, but the error is in favour of the Commissar.

 

However, for 8 casualties or higher, you will be suffering d6+1 further casualties. Probably mostly irrelevant for 10 man squads (although with the old rule, you would have a lone survivor) but definitely worse for Conscripts and combined squads.

 

On the other hand, at those casualty rates, Conscripts without the Commissar would be suffering d6+4 additional casualties in the morale phase.

 

Edit: I think I’ve corrected those numbers in the quote above.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Plasmablasts

[TheShredder]

How about this as a morale mitigation strategy?

 

Lord Commissar provides base LD 9.

Command Squad with Regimental Standard provides +1 LD within 6".

Uriah Jacobus provides another +1 LD within 6".

 

Each of those elements combined make Guard infantry LD 11 within 6".  That is decent I think.  You'll have to watch out for snipers and psychic powers but you can build in some redundancy.  Is it as cost efficient as it was before? Nope, but it is what it is.

 

Actually, this would only get you Ld10, as the Commissar Lord can't benefit from the Regimental Standard. 

[Guardsman Bob]

 

 

As far as I understand it, you execute one Order before resolving the next. Previously I thought it meant that you could stack buffs on a unit, e.g., give it FRFSRF and Take Aim, however it sounds like you do one Order, resolve it, then can potentially do another. I guess Move Move Move after firing? I dunno if I'm misinterpreting it.

Exactly!

In the escalation league last week I used them on my Warlord with the Voice of Command. That gave me a second chance to proc the Laurels. Coffee actually nailed the two orders used together the few times it did work. My rolls in both games were pretty bad.

If GW didn’t want them being used to boost shooting I can understand that. But the least they should have done was make it automatic.

I have previous of getting stuff like this wrong (so basically ignore me!), for example to resolve FRFSRF just means you double your shots? So you could couple this with take aim, which allows you to re-roll ones, right? But you couldnt issues the orders the other way around as you can only shoot once?. I think I've just confused myself, basically the FAQ needs an example or am i being as think as an ogryn.

In the Q&A it states you have to resolve (finish, complete) the first order before applying a second. So there is no more coupling shooting orders on the same unit since FRFSRF would have to be rolled first before Take Aim could be applied.

 

Someone might argue you could do both and get two separate dice rolls (with two separate effects) during the shooting phase but that just feels dirty. Rules Lawyering at it’s worst.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Guardsman Bob

[BurntheHeretic]

Surprised the FAQ's came out so fast, but I'd have preferred GW (and especially FW) to take more time to think this through. Am I seeing correctly that the Forgeworld Leman Russes still have a 132 base points cost, instead of the updated 122?

 

 

The Hades Drill 'veterans' also still hit on a 4+.Pretty discouraging..

[Guardsman Bob]

If someone is really jonesing for the Commissars of old play Valhalla with their relic on an officer.

 

If I used Conscripts there would be a slight urge to run the Mordian Warlord Trait.

 

If we want to focus on the positive those heriteical Genestear Cults can’t get their dirty mitts on our Doctrines or Characters.

[our_baz]

@guardsmanbob. Gottacha, FRFSRF + take aim is a no. As you need to resolve the to hit roll. So FRFSRF + bring it down is ok, as different rolls are resolved? But there are still certain combos that can be combined, off the top of my head say "get back in the fight" + FRFSRF

[wulfgar hammerfist]

 

How about this as a morale mitigation strategy?

 

Lord Commissar provides base LD 9.

Command Squad with Regimental Standard provides +1 LD within 6".

Uriah Jacobus provides another +1 LD within 6".

 

Each of those elements combined make Guard infantry LD 11 within 6".  That is decent I think.  You'll have to watch out for snipers and psychic powers but you can build in some redundancy.  Is it as cost efficient as it was before? Nope, but it is what it is.

 

Actually, this would only get you Ld10, as the Commissar Lord can't benefit from the Regimental Standard. 

 

After looking at the rules again, I agree.  Still Ld 10 is pretty good.

[TheShredder]

 

In the Q&A it states you have to resolve (finish, complete) the first order before applying a second. So there is no more coupling shooting orders on the same unit since FRFSRF would have to be rolled first before Take Aim could be applied.

 

Why do you need to roll FRFSRF first?

 

Nowhere in that order does it say that the unit has to shoot immediately. Hell, it doesn't have to shoot at all. I am fully within my rights to issue a FRFSRF order and then not shoot with that unit.

 

 

Here's the process as I see it:

 

- You issue the FRFSRF order to a unit.

- The unit's lasgun weapons are changed to Rapid Fire 2. That's it. The order has now been completely resolved.

- You roll for Laurels of Command (let's say it succeeds).

- You then choose to issue Take Aim.

- Until the end of the phase, the ordered unit will reroll to-hit rolls of 1. Now the second order has been completely resolved.

- At some point during the shooting phase, you may choose to fire that unit - if you do, all their lasguns will be Rapid Fire 2 and they'll reroll to-hit rolls of 1.

[BurntheHeretic]

 

In the Q&A it states you have to resolve (finish, complete) the first order before applying a second. So there is no more coupling shooting orders on the same unit since FRFSRF would have to be rolled first before Take Aim could be applied.

 

Someone might argue you could do both and get two separate dice rolls (with two separate effects) during the shooting phase but that just feels dirty. Rules Lawyering at it’s worst.

 

 

Well,that is what I would argue, doesn't feel like rule lawyering to me. First order is FRFSRF. I roll 40 dice instead of 20, resulting in 20 hits and 7 1's. I then order 'take aim', and I take those 1's  and reroll them. To me that still means I resolve the effect of the first order before I apply the second one. 

 

[Ranulf]

 

 

 

As far as I understand it, you execute one Order before resolving the next. Previously I thought it meant that you could stack buffs on a unit, e.g., give it FRFSRF and Take Aim, however it sounds like you do one Order, resolve it, then can potentially do another. I guess Move Move Move after firing? I dunno if I'm misinterpreting it.

Exactly!

In the escalation league last week I used them on my Warlord with the Voice of Command. That gave me a second chance to proc the Laurels. Coffee actually nailed the two orders used together the few times it did work. My rolls in both games were pretty bad.

If GW didn’t want them being used to boost shooting I can understand that. But the least they should have done was make it automatic.

I have previous of getting stuff like this wrong (so basically ignore me!), for example to resolve FRFSRF just means you double your shots? So you could couple this with take aim, which allows you to re-roll ones, right? But you couldnt issues the orders the other way around as you can only shoot once?. I think I've just confused myself, basically the FAQ needs an example or am i being as think as an ogryn.

In the Q&A it states you have to resolve (finish, complete) the first order before applying a second. So there is no more coupling shooting orders on the same unit since FRFSRF would have to be rolled first before Take Aim could be applied.

 

Someone might argue you could do both and get two separate dice rolls (with two separate effects) during the shooting phase but that just feels dirty. Rules Lawyering at it’s worst.

 

 

That will be the sticking point on the tabletop - First order effects rate of fire, next order effects hit rolls / wound rolls which are the next step in the sequence of events. I agree with you completely in that it is rules lawyering and I wouldn't consider it, but many will.

[Finkmilkana]

In the Q&A it states you have to resolve (finish, complete) the first order before applying a second. So there is no more coupling shooting orders on the same unit since FRFSRF would have to be rolled first before Take Aim could be applied.

 

Someone might argue you could do both and get two separate dice rolls (with two separate effects) during the shooting phase but that just feels dirty. Rules Lawyering at it’s worst.

While that reading makes sense and is clearly the intend for some of the order (those that induce an immediate action like move!move!move! or fix bayonets), it does not work for all the orders that give a bonus until the end of the phase' like take aim or FRFSRF.

 

Either they are resolved once the bonus is granted but before they fire, as firing is not part of the order and usually all orders have to be given to all units before the first unit is even allowed to fire (which would mean you could still stack them). Or they are resolved once the bonus expires, which would mean you cannot actually give a second order until all other units have acted and the shooting phase has ended, as the effect lasts for the whole shooting phase.

Note that the second option would make the second order come into effect either in the charge phase or between phases, which would both be just plain weird (and potentially abusable with stuff like Move move move).

 

If they indeed want the ordered unit to first resolve their attacks before a second order is given, then an errata that makes shooting part of the order itself seems the only way to have it make sense ruleswise.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Finkmilkana

[Guardsman Bob]

 

In the Q&A it states you have to resolve (finish, complete) the first order before applying a second. So there is no more coupling shooting orders on the same unit since FRFSRF would have to be rolled first before Take Aim could be applied.

 

 

Why do you need to roll FRFSRF first?

 

Nowhere in that order does it say that the unit has to shoot immediately. Hell, it doesn't have to shoot at all. I am fully within my rights to issue a FRFSRF order and then not shoot with that unit.

 

 

Here's the process as I see it:

 

- You issue the FRFSRF order to a unit.

- The unit's lasgun weapons are changed to Rapid Fire 2. That's it. The order has now been completely resolved.

- You roll for Laurels of Command (let's say it succeeds).

- You then choose to issue Take Aim.

- Until the end of the phase, the ordered unit will reroll to-hit rolls of 1. Now the second order has been completely resolved.

- At some point during the shooting phase, you may choose to fire that unit - if you do, all their lasguns will be Rapid Fire 2 and they'll reroll to-hit rolls of 1.

That’s a valid interpretion as well. Submit the question to GW. I will be rooting for you. Not just because this result would favor me as well. If you get a positive email result please post back on the forums.

 

I try to keep closer to RAW. This is a bit RAI for my comfort.

[Withershadow]

His interpretation is more RAW than yours. FRFSRF changes your weapon type it does not force you to shoot.

 

Also, can regimental banners stack with command auras?

Edited October 23, 2017 by Withershadow

[Chris521]

Also, can regimental banners stack with command auras?

I don't think so, but I'd love to be wrong. The banners don't give +1 Ld to commissars and the aura rule says that units can use the commissar's leadership instead of their own. 

 

I've never really done much with psykers before, but I'm thinking of taking a battalion with two inquisitors and at least 3 20 man conscript squad.  I no longer will feel any remorse for taking them.  The inquisitors give a Ld 9 bubble and a power.  

 

On top of that, has anyone used Greyfax or Coteaz this edition? They may be worth a look with their Ld 10 bubbles.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Chris521

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

The Malcador Heavy Tank still doesn't have Grinding Advance OR even just "Lumbering" Advance. Not much reason to take any Malcador over a Leman Russ, but especially the Heavy Tank is just expensive junk.

[Bonzi]

The Q and A on Laurels of Command only says that the second order must be different than the first. Meaning simply that you can't order Move Move Move and then do Move Move Move again. Typical combos of FRFSRF and Fire on my Target are still a go from what I can see.

[Khornestar]

I have a feeling the meaningful changes will come in the Chapter Approved book. That way they have some time to figure it all out and also make some money in the process of rebalancing.

 

This is of course assuming there will ever be any real changes to the book (Imperial Armour, that is). But making reference to the codex entries instead of those in the index really would have taken very little work, and they were certainly aware of the point discrepancies, so I can’t think of many good reasons beyond they’re saving those changes so they can charge us for ‘em.

 

I have seen some suggest that we (Krieg, Elysians, Renegades) use the codex entries because they’re the most up-to-date for the relevant units, but I’m not so sure. GW either wants us to continue using index points or they think it’s obvious we should be referencing the codex.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Juggernut

[hhhdan]

Conscripts are worthless because they will crumble to morale and commissars are now more a hazard than a benefit.

 

Clarification on master of ordnance that wasn't needed and nothing done to make him less garbage.

 

Ambush can only bring in one vehicle, at least this should make putting models into that vehicle as one deployment more of a palatable scenario for the opponent.

 

Dagger can only be carried by an officer (used to be any astra militarum character), that's a great shame because I really wanted to give it to a Ministorum Priest.

 

Send in the Next Wave is effectively worthless, because why would you weaken your list in order to save some reinforcement points to maybe get the opportunity to spend stratagem points to bring back a unit way out of position on your side of the field?

 

Terrible.  The Commissar thing was the worst, but I guess it will really piss off everyone who had gather hundreds of conscripts for their net lists.  Silver lining?

 

 

The worst thing is the FAQ to the FW Index stuff... they didn't fix any of the previous issues, and just confirmed the staggering mediocrity of most of the contents.  Swell.  All my lovely Malcadors are now paperweights.

 

Could just take draconian disciplinarian commissar and a commander with valhallan relic, and conscripts are pretty much as obnoxious as they were before. Requires a specific build though, so not universal (which is a good thing).

How about this as a morale mitigation strategy?

 

Lord Commissar provides base LD 9.

Command Squad with Regimental Standard provides +1 LD within 6".

Uriah Jacobus provides another +1 LD within 6".

 

Each of those elements combined make Guard infantry LD 11 within 6".  That is decent I think.  You'll have to watch out for snipers and psychic powers but you can build in some redundancy.  Is it as cost efficient as it was before? Nope, but it is what it is.

better take a named inquisitor to get ld10 base