I do so love being left out of all the new stuff...

[Gentlemanloser]

First it was FW stopping us having access to any marine stuff. Like mortis dreads and the xiphion.

 

And now i just stumble across a list of Primaris units that every other chapter, including the Deathwatch has access to. Apart from us.

 

Yay...

 

Come on GW, the lore is cussed enough. We're not getting new kits anyway. Just open access for us to all the new marine toys everyone else is getting.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Adeptus]

I for one am glad we can retain a unique sense of identity instead of just having all the same toys every other Marine faction gets, just painted in silver.

 

You're always free to include those things in your army, either mixing them with your Grey Knights in an Imperium detachment or taking an allied detachment.

 

I'm actually really glad there's no Primaris Grey Knights. Like, really rally glad.

[Gentlemanloser]

You could just use SM Primaris if you wanted that.

 

As could everyone else.

 

The point is all the new toys coming out, from now on, are Primaris.

 

And Primaris only.

 

And we're the only Marine players locked out. (Edit and any rare guys that play pure lotd...)

 

That sucks. And there is zero good reason for it. Not even any thing in the fluff. Not when you can upgrade existing marines into Primaris.

 

I'd rather have the option for new stuff, now and in the future. Rather then being stuck with exactly the same as I've had for the last decade or so (or whenever the ndk was originally released).

 

I don't see why anyone wouldn't want the option of new choices. Don't like them, don't use them. But it's better to have the choice than to have none at all...

Edited October 22, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Danarc]

First it was FW stopping us having access to any marine stuff. Like mortis dreads and the xiphion.

 

And now i just stumble across a list of Primaris units that every other chapter, including the Deathwatch has access to. Apart from us.

 

Yay...

 

Come on GW, the lore is cussed enough. We're not getting new kits anyway. Just open access for us to all the new marine toys everyone else is getting.

You forget to mention that currently we are the only one codex that didn't receive any point reduction.

 

I for one am glad we can retain a unique sense of identity instead of just having all the same toys every other Marine faction gets, just painted in silver.

 

You're always free to include those things in your army, either mixing them with your Grey Knights in an Imperium detachment or taking an allied detachment.

 

I'm actually really glad there's no Primaris Grey Knights. Like, really rally glad.

 

I am glad too.

 

But I am informed that GW is having some big problem with new model printer. They don't have enough energy power so their production is really slow (as you can see there are no GK termy on sale in some country). According to this, honestly, I believe that we should have primaris GK with different models. But we will have it in the future.

 

But there is no reason for do not have some FW stuff, like Xyphon (that we use to have) or contemptor. 

[Adeptus]

Well, I don't necessarily think it's a given that all releases from now on will be Primaris. I think the legacy marine range is pretty full, and there's not a lot of design space left there, but that doesn't mean we'll not see any more releases for it.

 

Also, there's been no confirmation that legacy marines can be upgraded to primaris.

 

There's also something to be said for having a 'complete' line. I can't really think of anything I'd want to see, and I'd certainly hate to have to deal with the issues involved with incorporating marines+1 into my grey knights. In fact, if they released specialty grey knights primaris marines I'd be tempted to sell all my grey knights and focus on my chaos and IG forces. The entire concept of marines+1 is lazy and boring and I hate it and the one saving grace, IMO, is that there are none of them in the grey knights!

 

We've always got the option of new choices, but I don't see why they should have to come from the grey knights line. Or rather, I see the grey knights as a highly specialised niche force, and they've basically got all their bases already covered. They don't need to invent new units to expand their role by adding anti-armour units, bikes, new +1 dreads or +1 marines, anti-flyer stuff, etc. If I want to increase the scope of my army, I look to other Imperial factions just as (IMO) a grey knights commander would.

 

Not to say that you're wrong for wanting new stuff, just that I DON'T want new stuff!

[Corvus Fortis]

The worst thing is this situation, IMO, is that some people already had FW stuff for grey knights because it was availabe to us in previous edition. And now they just got denied all that and need an allied SM force to field all this stuff without losing BoP and objective secured. 

 

Not that I'm upset but having primaris guys would give GK some more options and help solve some common problems. Inceptors have good synergy with our army because of deepstrike and high AP shooting that we currently lack on infantry while repulsors are very effective long range heavy weapon platforms. 

 

So what really upsets me is that GK seem GW's unloved child in Astartes family. No matter how cool we are in the fluff, we're still treated as support force to SM or AM. Ok, this edition we've got much better but still lack a lot of things other armies got with their Codexes. Only 1-2 good relics (and liber daemonica became the most useless relic not just in our codex but the most useless relic in the game so far), 1 good warlord trait and 1 okayish, no stuff to return CP for the army that can have at best 7 CP and stay effective in a game under 2k points (and AM while able to field brigade under 1000 has several ways of returning it). Most usefeul stratagems like psybolt ammo and heed the prognosticars cost 2 CP which makes us save CP on them instead of using cheaper but not as powerful ones like 3 dice for manifesting. And on top of that we only got 2 flyers that would be of some use in 7th but we don't need them now. And another unit from existing kit that we have to CONVERT. Even FW gave us just everything that vanilla guys have but with psycannons. GW suddenly remembered we exist when in Gathering Storm 3 and gave us named grandmaster and expenisve formation that buffs that we already best at. And a set of homerules to buff our enemies.

 

In short, I'm pretty sure we just won't gain any new stuff to play with in several years and this kind of not fun. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Corvus Fortis

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd say we do need anti armour and all the rest.

 

The moment chaos brings armour (which they do) we should have a specialised anti armour unit.

 

Exactly like the NDK was created to face chaos MCs.

 

There's no logical reasons the GK ( do let us not forget have thier own forge world and the best equipment in the imperium. Bar cawls better weapons...) to see Soul Grinders and think

 

"Nope we don't need any anti armour".

 

We should have a unit with FLY to take nemesis weapons to Helldrakes and other flying Chaos nasty's.

 

And i seriously think we shouldn't be looking at forces that aren't immune to corruption from the warp for these options.

 

There's no sense behind an ultra pragmatic army with unlimited resources not having access to any tool they personally need.

 

GK. "Hale Grand Master Voldus, what have you been doing?"

 

Voldus. "Accompanying our spiritual liege Bobby G around. You know, he's got the method to makes us stronger, faster, tougher. And some tech priest has made better versions of the bolt gun and plasma gun."

 

GK. "That might be useful. I hear that the ruinous powers are pumping more foul warp energy into thier traitorous followers, and they are getting tougher. "

 

Voldus. "Nah. Draigo can come back any time he wants now. We don't need anything to make us stronger. I hear Mortarions back. Draigo has some name carving to do..."

 

;)

Edited October 23, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[the jeske]

Well GK do have anti tank/monster stuff. It is just most of it is really bad.

[skarn]

Gk are really good at killing primaris, particularly in melee, so that's something.

 

Anyway, its really only a matter of time before we see primaris gk. We aren't the priority, the generic marines are. Suits me thpugh, i much prefer my metal gk to anything that gw has done in the last 15 years.

[Danarc]

We don't need new units (even if I will be really happy if we will get at least storm shield), but we really need that our HW become useful. And maybe the psycannon became a true antitank with at least S8 and a decent VP. 

[Gentlemanloser]

At the very last we need a unit with FLY.

 

Edit. A non flier slot unit that is.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[jeffersonian000]

At the very last we need a unit with FLY.

 

Edit. A non flier slot unit that is.

Well, I did propose a flying MC based on an uplift Centurion chassis, an Interceptor version of an NDK. That would be a fun “new” model kit based on existing sprews, just needs some art work and over the top fluff.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Totaly agree!

 

And with all the 'new' grav plates and technology Cawl seems to have pulled out of nowhere, it shouldn't seem unfeasible.

[Adeptus]

Gotta say, I'm not in love with the idea of a flying dreadknight, lol. I'd prefer some kind of hydra analogue to tackle flying units, but then, I'd just ally in some Astra Militarum if that was what I wanted.

[skarn]

Gk jetbikes with force lances..?

[Adeptus]

Stahp.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Still odd that Interceptors don't have the Fly keyword. They must be one of the few jump infantry units that don't have it. So as an easy solution to 'why can nothing assault Flyers' just do that.

 

As for anti-tank, we have Venerables and Ravens. Not great compared to some other factions, but them's the breaks. I agree that infantry psycannon needs a buff. Damage 2 would go a long way in that regard. That's what holds it back IMO, Damage 1 is just too low when you're usually hitting on 4's (due to moving) and wounding mid-range armour on 4's (T7 is a common one). We already pay a hefty premium for it, and it just doesn't deliver. The heavy version is fine (I never used blast mode in 7th so its always been Heavy 6 for me), mainly because its Damage 2.

[jeffersonian000]

Actually, I like that Interceptors aren’t Jump Infantry. They don’t “fly”, they stay firmly on the ground, popping in and out of the Warp to bypass obstacles and compress distances. Very fluffy.

 

At what we pay for our special weapons, they need to not be Heavy. Just make them Assault or Rapid Fire, and I’m okay with spending for that. Psycannons should be punching out big stuff, Psilencers should be spraying mortal wounds, and Incinerators need to be able to kill stuff unlike what it does now.

 

SJ

Edited October 27, 2017 by jeffersonian000

[Adeptus]

You've got to remember, not everyone plays with points. If psycannons are free (like when you're playing PL games) then psycannons and psilencers are a good deal. They're strictly better than stormbolters. So making them even betterer runs the risk of screwing up the PL "balance" (and I'm aware of the irony of using the term balance to refer to a play mode that embraces imbalance). The best way to balance psycannons and psilencers for competitive play is through points tweaks. That's why the points values are separate from the datasheets in the first place, to facilitate tweaking for balance.

[Gentlemanloser]

I really hope PL gets dropped by everyone, GW included. But i think i might be in the minority there. ;)

 

Changes to our special weapons pales in the ability to spam every unit with vortexor purge soul. A few tweaks to paycannons won't do anything to upset that.

 

Or giving every single GK mini a hamner for free...

 

PL should never be thought of when looking at balance.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Waking Dreamer]

I agree that infantry psycannon needs a buff. Damage 2 would go a long way in that regard. That's what holds it back IMO, Damage 1 is just too low when you're usually hitting on 4's (due to moving) and wounding mid-range armour on 4's (T7 is a common one). We already pay a hefty premium for it, and it just doesn't deliver. The heavy version is fine (I never used blast mode in 7th so its always been Heavy 6 for me), mainly because its Damage 2.

Too right. Just a minor change, but gets the job done.

 

Increasing their strength or AP can be done through stratagems...if you want them to be even more potent. Ideally it would be good to have an equivalent of 7th Edition Rending back.

[Adeptus]

I really hope PL gets dropped by everyone, GW included. But i think i might be in the minority there.

 

Changes to our special weapons pales in the ability to spam every unit with vortexor purge soul. A few tweaks to paycannons won't do anything to upset that.

 

Or giving every single GK mini a hamner for free...

 

PL should never be thought of when looking at balance.

You gotta remember though, the types of people playing with PL aren't the types of people trying to maximise a competitive build. If there's a way to tweak psycannons for competitive play WITHOUT impacting PL games, then that's the preferred route IMO. Psycannons are clearly better than stormbolters. They've got higher strength and better AP, and they fire four shots out to 24" instead of only to 12", so the only real issue is working out how much more we should be paying to have a psycannon instead of a stormbolter.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not about maximising though.

 

Giving every mini a 13 point upgrade for free is stupid bonkers, and shouldn't be a part of intelligent game design.

[Adeptus]

And yet, every PL game I've played has been a mutually enjoyed, balanced experience. Some gamers enjoy being left to self regulate at least some aspects of their gaming balance.

 

If you're the kind of person that would use "counts as" to arm all of your models with hammers and psycannons, then PL are not for you and you're better off using points. Gamers have been pretty good so far at self identifying if PL will be a good match for them, at least in my experience.

 

My point is just that since we have a separate points system that exists (ostensibly) purely for the reason of balancing competitive play, then that should be our first port of call when attempting to balance psycannons for competitive play.

[Gentlemanloser]

Do you think it's better then for players to have 30 duplicate strike minis?

 

So when they play points games they have swords / falchions.

 

But need another set of 30 minis to pay power level games with hammers?

 

That's, unreasonable i feel.

 

So yeah. Me and the guys i play with are all happy to have wargear counts as.

 

Especially as some prefer the asthetics to wargear they won't use in game but prefer to have modeled on thier figures.

 

Edit. And i thought we agreed that all games, points or pl, are competitive.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Gentlemanloser