I do so love being left out of all the new stuff...

[Plasmablasts]

I think, if you feel obliged to bring 30 Strikes with hammers because that’s the most efficient use of Power Levels you can devise, then Narrative Play wasn’t designed with your gaming style in mind. If you don’t find a game satisfying unless you’ve carefully pruned every morsel of flab from your list, knowing that your opponent will have done the same, then Matched Play with points is clearly the best fit.

 

If you don’t get to play terribly often, your army has been slowly built up over several editions with the meta changing more often than your paint brush and you just want to get your models on the table, against an opponent you trust not to pull tricks that destroy the fun of the game for you, then Power Levels/Narrative Play might be right.

 

Not better, just different.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why wouldn't you bring all hammers? It's a free option.

 

There is zero downside to it. And not doing it becuase it might upset your opponent treads the slippery route of maybe 2 gmndk will also upset. Or using any culexes assassins. Or bringing bobby g. Or...

 

The only thing pl has going for it is the quicker ability to write a list. No need to check to see if you can afford this upgrade or not and flipping back and forth between datasheet and points lists.

 

Oh and breaking the game by not having reinforcement points or rule of 1.

 

Should we also not use pl if our opponent summon? Or have Send in the Next Wave? As they are far more broken than free hammers. Nearly up there with unlimited Vortex spamm. ;)

 

Self balancing doesn't work and is a very slippery slope.

[Plasmablasts]

Oh, if you’re at all concerned about your opponents (or yourself!) abusing the flexibility of Narrative Play then Matched Play is the way forward.

 

There is also the halfway house of using Power Levels (for the ease of list building) but keeping some or all of the Matched Play restrictions in place.

[Corvus Fortis]

Last time my mates played a PL game, it turned out one of the lists had 600 points more, than another. They decided to play MP points only fom now on. 

[Plasmablasts]

Ouch!

 

Did one of them have thirty daemonhammers...?

[Beams]

Why wouldn't you bring all hammers? It's a free option.

 

There is zero downside to it. And not doing it becuase it might upset your opponent treads the slippery route of maybe 2 gmndk will also upset. Or using any culexes assassins. Or bringing bobby g. Or...

 

The only thing pl has going for it is the quicker ability to write a list. No need to check to see if you can afford this upgrade or not and flipping back and forth between datasheet and points lists.

 

Oh and breaking the game by not having reinforcement points or rule of 1.

 

Should we also not use pl if our opponent summon? Or have Send in the Next Wave? As they are far more broken than free hammers. Nearly up there with unlimited Vortex spamm. ;)

 

Self balancing doesn't work and is a very slippery slope.

Power level should be 100% wysiwig. If you find yourself doing 'free' upgrades instead of playing with the models you built because they were cool, than you should play matched. Power level is intended to be for beer and prrtzelgaming

[Gentlemanloser]

The is no wysiwyg rule in 40k any more.

 

And again i go back to players who model on astethics, and like cool minis. Should they be locked out of pl because they prefer the look of minis with wargear they'd never use in game?

 

To follow a rule that doesn't exist?

[Adeptus]

The is no wysiwyg rule in 40k any more.

 

And again i go back to players who model on astethics, and like cool minis. Should they be locked out of pl because they prefer the look of minis with wargear they'd never use in game?

 

To follow a rule that doesn't exist?

The short answer is yes.

 

If they don't want to play their models as modelled, then they're probably not going to have as much fun using PL as they would using points.

 

I would happily play a game against you GML, but I'd never suggest we try using PL or narrative play. I don't think that we approach the game the same way, so the tighter framework of points and matched play restrictions would mean we're both coming to the game with more accurate expectations.

[skarn]

New players aside I wont play against non wysiwyg minis. Its part of the game, otherwise we might as well be using paper counters.

[Gentlemanloser]

We're having great fun worth narrative missions.

 

All of us versus the nid player who has like 50k worth of points and has been collecting for decades.

 

We run meat grinder to show a last ditch planetary struggle versus an invading hive fleet and this fits his internal narrative of how the nid should act.

 

His models are heavily customised (he's a modeler at heart) but now loves being able to put his collection on the table. Lots of wargear options have been created due to asthetics, and in some cases even how they might have worked editions ago. His home made red terror is amazing, but now so different to what an official version should be.

 

 

We use matched play rules and points though. As none of us want to see games skewed by free summoning or totally free upgrades. The guys are, tolerating smite spam as it is, i think there would be some issues with unlimited vortex/purge spam as well.

 

Narrative missions are fine (cobra deletes a baneblade, sustained assault brings it back on next turn), the game rules attached to those missions are not.

 

And I'd happily play games with just about anyone. Everyone here included! :)

 

Edit. Unless were using counts as to try out new minis before purchase we rule that you need to use the mini to use the mini.

 

But wargear, that's too mutable and not everyone likes or has the modelling skills to use excessive magnets. So that dude with a chainsword is actually using an eviscerator? Cool. No issues with that.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Gentlemanloser]

Back to PL.

 

Who is it designed for? Not players who prefer balance. Nor players who prefer asthetics over rigid modeling?

 

What's the demographic? Players who don't want to build lists and just throw models down?

 

There's open play for that.

 

PL is a half way house between open, the old apoc and points.

 

And caters to neither player.

 

Edit. Oh and i hope all the WYSIWYG purists have modeled grenades on all thier GK. ;)

Edited October 30, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Beams]

Back to PL.

 

Who is it designed for? Not players who prefer balance. Nor players who prefer asthetics over rigid modeling?

 

What's the demographic? Players who don't want to build lists and just throw models down?

 

There's open play for that.

 

PL is a half way house between open, the old apoc and points.

 

And caters to neither player.

 

Edit. Oh and i hope all the WYSIWYG purists have modeled grenades on all thier GK. ;)

Power level is designed for a relatively balanced, casual, quick game.

 

If no one is actively.trykng to break it, then it doesn't get broken. It's a valid way to play beer and pretzels style games.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Beams

[Gentlemanloser]

What's 'actively trying to break' actually mean?

 

Taking multiple instances of purge soul or Vortex? Taking any or *some* free upgrades?

 

It's so subjective as to be meaningless.

 

You want beer and pretzels, play open.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Beams]

What's 'actively trying to break' actually mean?

 

Taking multiple instances of purge soul or Vortex? Taking any or *some* free upgrades?

 

It's so subjective as to be meaningless.

 

You want beer and pretzels, play open.

Look, I get you don't like this mode, which is fine. Don't play it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not to belabour the point, but my questions can't be answered. Not meaningfully. That's the issue.

 

It's an ill thought halfway house mode that caters to no players.

 

Yes there's always some aspect of social contact to games. Be it as simple as ' what point level are we playing'.

 

But mutually deciding what minis your opponent can bring, that you agree to play against, takes away from both a game and an easy to set up and play environment.

 

Open is easy. Plonk them all down. Pew pew. Matched is easy. Everyone at by the same limits.

 

Power levels. It's not easy. It's not designed to be easy when players inforce so many arbitrary restrictions that all need mutual agreement prior to play.

 

WYSIWYG. Can't bring these units. No duplicate psychic powers. Can't use summoning or reserves. What's next that needs to be agreed upon prior to actually setting up this easy format match?

 

Just pull out a pointed list and go have a game. Easy.

 

 

Anyway, i think I've thoroughly derailed my own thread by now. Ilk just wait until the next marine release is announce that we don't get access to while every one else, including the other special snowflake non codex chapters do get access.

 

And wonder both why we are continuing to be left out in the cold. And why others are happy with this...

Edited October 30, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Beams]

What's 'actively trying to break' actually mean?

 

Taking multiple instances of purge soul or Vortex? Taking any or *some* free upgrades?

 

It's so subjective as to be meaningless.

 

You want beer and pretzels, play open.

Taking multiple instances of vortex or purge soul = fine

 

Taking a few hammer since your models look cool with hammers = sweet, do it!

 

Taking all mininimum sized cheap squads armed with all hammers and vortex without first discussing it with your partner = probably not fine.

 

Note: this obviously depends on your gaming group. If you and your friends want to come up with the most absurd stuff as possible, go for it.

 

Open is completely unrestrictied

Powerlevel is a middle ground allowing quick and easy, "approcimately balanced" games

 

Matched/Points is more "finely balanced"

 

Also, just because the option is there doesn't mean you have to play it. If you don't understand why it's there, play points. If you don't see what "abusing" it would be, play points. If you think your opponent would "abuse" it, play points. But if you want a game where you can slap a list together in two minutes, and have a game that's fun if not perfectly balanced using the models that you happen to have on hand, go for it.

[Gentlemanloser]

With open play.

 

Don't even need the 2 minutes to slap a list together.

 

Do you want a quick fun beer and pretzles game? Or a balanced matched versus an opposing general?

[Helycon]

Pretty sure the topic has massively derailed.

[Adeptus]

The problem with open play is that there will inevitably be some kind of dialogue as to the size of the game, and if you're deliberately avoiding any kind of established currency (be it points or power levels) then all you're doing is making your job harder.

Power Levels are best suited to people who already have an established group and a mutually agreed upon 'method' of playing the game. Power levels let you quickly establish and adjust the size of the game, without having to worry about imbalance* because you and your opponent already know each other quite well.

Where the system breaks down is when two players approach the game from different places. If one player wants to craft the most cut-throat competitive tournament list that he can, and the other is deliberately using many sub-optimal units and upgrades because they match his narrative, then the two players are going to have an unpleasant, unbalanced game regardless of if they use points or power levels.

But two players who both have a similar idea of how to approach the game, where that idea has been established over time and discussion and shared playing experiences, will likely have a balanced and enjoyable gaming experience no matter if they use points or power levels.

Power levels are just a convenient short-hand method of setting the size and duration of the game so neither player gets caught short only bringing a ten man strike squad and a brother captain, while his opponent brings half a dozen carnifexes, two hive tyrants, and three hundred gaunts. Any time you arrange a game there's going to be a discussion of "Well, I'm going to bring ten Paladins, three five-man Strike squads, a Grandmaster and a Venerable Dreadnought" and then your opponent has to kind of work out in his head what sort of force he could field that would be roughly equivalent, and then there's a negotiation over force sizes if one side wants a smaller or larger game and you basically have to hash out your whole lists with each other right then and there when you're arranging your game. Power Levels just exist to make that conversation easier.

When you know your opponent well, and you have a solid and trusting gaming relationship, then you don't need to know if he spent the correct amount of points on a lascannon or if he paid for that powerfist upgrade, you just trust that both your lists are equivalent enough to have an enjoyable game.


* - I say without worry about imbalance, what I really mean is that even when using points, the potential for mismatched and imbalanced lists is huge. Points are no guarantee of balance, and I would even go so far as to state that they do not meaningfully distance themselves from power levels when it comes to determining balanced forces. Two players taking 50 power levels and both approaching the game in the same mindset will, IMO, not have a significantly more imbalanced game than two players both building 1,500 point lists while approaching the game with the same mindset.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Adeptus

[Adeptus]

Anyway, i think I've thoroughly derailed my own thread by now. Ilk just wait until the next marine release is announce that we don't get access to while every one else, including the other special snowflake non codex chapters do get access.

 

And wonder both why we are continuing to be left out in the cold. And why others are happy with this...

 

To me, a theme is as much about restriction as it is about choice. Simply giving us all the same options as every other marine codex would dilute our theme, and stop us from being Grey Knights and turn us into silver marines. If we were never given another new GK model, then I'd be happy. I'd also be happy to see a generic PA character we could use as a Justicar/Brotherhood Champion and one for TA that could be a Bro-Cap, GM or Chaplain, but I don't feel like we need new units to round out our selections. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Not if our theme remains all psykers.

 

The rest of the non codex marines retain their theme. And they get all the new toys.

 

Wouldn't work any different for us.

[Adeptus]

I think our theme is a bit more nuanced than 'all psykers' lmao!

[Prot]

Back on topic....

 

When I was playing strictly Grey Knights I was always jealous of other codexes and felt so limited. I don't feel this way with the new GK codex. In fact I think it plays nicely in more phases of the game than a lot of armies do, and perhaps more so than I thought they would!

 

The other elite army I play is Deathwatch... you want to talk about being left out? Wow, what a difficult index army, that never, ever had a decent codex. 

But Deathwatch do get Primaris! And I'll tell you first hand what GK are missing from Primaris.... just Hellblasters. Everything else is substandard, and probably will be for years. I honestly have played each Primaris unit dozens of times, at times in multiples. Quite frankly... they stink. I could go on, but the point is I think there's at least a 'smidge' of grass is greener going on here.

 

FW is FW. It borders on being outlawed in some meta's. It's a goofy book with units that are too strong, or too weak. And I think GK get a great piece of that action.

 

I would go so far to say I think GK are my favorite (I can't speak for everyone) elite army in the game. GW codexes have given a lot of power to hordes (I've never been a fan) and for me the best alternative is GK. (I know some people are doing funky stuff with Custodes but it's pretty one dimensional stuff).

[Gentlemanloser]

How about the redemptor and replusor, i though a lot of marine armies used those, are they substandard?

 

Aggressors look nice on paper too, and the guys around here quite like reivers.

 

I purposely steared clear of using any.

[skarn]

Power levels have been great for me getting new palyers including my 11 year old into the game. He can choose his army himself and we can have a reasonably balanced game. Wysiwyg makes pl work though. Talking about grenades is being purposely obtuse.