I do so love being left out of all the new stuff...

[Gentlemanloser]

No its not. It's wargear like hammers.

 

Why inforce a none existent rule on some wargear and not others?

 

Edit. Moreover its weapons now. Grenades are no longer just wargear distict from weapons, but actual shooting weapons themselves. Just like psycannons.

 

If you enforce WYSIWYG for shooting weapons like psycannons, grenades should be included as well.

 

Or the mini isn't WYSIWYG 'legal'.

 

But as WYSIWYG isn't even an official rule, sure you're free to do anything you want.

 

But i'd prefer some consistency to reason and application. Otherwise it smacks too much of personal cherry picking.

 

No you can't use that model becuase you didn't swap the Incinerator (best interceptor gun in the last two editions) for the psycannon you now want to use.

 

Well you can't use any minis without grenades modeled either. Fair?

Edited October 31, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Prot]

If the topic remains derailed, it will end up closed. Please feel free to take WYSIWYG conversation to the appropriate boards.

 

How about the redemptor and replusor, i though a lot of marine armies used those, are they substandard?

Aggressors look nice on paper too, and the guys around here quite like reivers.

I purposely steared clear of using any.

My personal opinion is the Redemptor is flat out bad without Guilliman. Moving and firing a Heavy , plus the damage table kills your to hit. I’d honestly recommend a Ven Dread to mitigate moving and shooting, and negate damage tables.

 

Repulsor is too expensive, and I prefer the LR ‘s 2+ save and full length las.

 

Reivers are fun but a bette4 asset to Primaris where deep strike is nearly non existent, but they suffer the same issue as Agressors... lots of no AP Bolters. They are okay though. I just strongly feel the GK codex is better off without any Primaris. I wish it wasn’t so because that says volumes about my cruddy Primaris army.

[Godeskian]

I think a heavy detachment of three units of Hellblasters and a cheap rerolls captain could be a useful bolster to a grey knights force. It would give a good set of high strength, low ap firepower to sit at the back while your deepstriking stuff wrecks face

[Capt. Mytre]

I think a heavy detachment of three units of Hellblasters and a cheap rerolls captain could be a useful bolster to a grey knights force. It would give a good set of high strength, low ap firepower to sit at the back while your deepstriking stuff wrecks face

 

This is the exact issue GK face. We can't deal with high toughness or high armour saves from range. This wouldn't be an issue if we had reliable close combat - but GK have nothing that benefits this other than FttF. Even still, we struggle in CC with units that aren't paladins. 10 man PAGK only deals 11 attacks base - you might kill 4 boys.

 

Our army shooting is 90% Str 4 AP 0 (marines in cover will take 2 wounds from 40 shots), with our "high strength" option being an autocannon that trades +2 shots for one less damage and has half the range.

 

GK need a rework from the ground up.

[Adeptus]

 

GK need a rework from the ground up.

 

 

To do what exactly?

[Plasmablasts]

Actually, the autocannon is an appropriate comparator for the psycannon: when both are in range, the damage output is the same (the psycannon doubles the shots which compensates for the halved D value). The trade-off is between the psycannon having improved utility against single-wound models and the autocannon having the better range.

[Godeskian]

 

 

I think a heavy detachment of three units of Hellblasters and a cheap rerolls captain could be a useful bolster to a grey knights force. It would give a good set of high strength, low ap firepower to sit at the back while your deepstriking stuff wrecks face

This is the exact issue GK face. We can't deal with high toughness or high armour saves from range. This wouldn't be an issue if we had reliable close combat -

The fact that anyone can withdraw from close combat makes elite close combat armies problematical. Sure, the withdrawing unit can't shoot, but you've essentially left your high value, probably small unit in the path of your enemies main firepower. I can't tell you the number of times I've had Paladins or the occasional GMNDK in close combat only for my opponent to walk the unit they were fighting away and nail the paladins or GMNDK with their main shooty force before charging back in themselves. Paladins are good, but they aren't that good.

 

By my maths, three five man Hellblasters and a 74 point basic no upgrades captain sets you back 569 points and gives you, at 30" effectively 15 rerolling strength 7-8, - 4 ap shots. Less rerolls if you've spread them out.

 

I'll be honest, I'm considering it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yeah they seem great.

[Capt. Mytre]

 

 

GK need a rework from the ground up.

 

 

To do what exactly?

 

 

Pick something and build around it. Right now, we're a mediocre mid range/close combat army that are all psykers. As I said, our shooting is pathetic. Our CC is poor for a "CC focused" army. Our psykers are heavily neutered, as well as the phase being heavily limited and not scaling with game size.

 

There are so many potential cool fluffy rules that we could have, but we're stuck with an expensive army that is easy to counter.

[Adeptus]

How would you build them differently?

[Capt. Mytre]

How would you build them differently?

 

(Sadly) I'm not being paid to write better and cooler rules than the lazy GW team, so I'm not going to go into detail about it. But as I said, I'd pick the core concept (say, Close Range + Psykers) and build on it. Each unit would have a role to fill, with a small bit of overlap between each to allow flexibility.

[swordofmandulis]

so while I agree to an extent with what you are saying, GW are very careful not to make any of the outlying marine based factions undermine or overshadow the precious Vanilla's. at the end of the day a Grey Knight is still an Astartes, a BAMF one, but their base stats will always be that of an astartes and it can become difficult to make them that much better than their basic cousins.

 

that being said, if you are going to restrict the options available, like having next to no high strength and AP weaponry, then I think some of the other things could have been made better. I don't know how though.

 

psychic not scaling is a problem. you fast run out of powers and are left with 1 wound smites which when Thousand sons get a version that's in between ours and the full one, seems totally unjust. I'd be happier with the version they have, at least you have the chance to do some decent damage with it.

[Adeptus]

The psychic focus rule does need to scale, but not everyone plays using it.

 

I think the problem with 'building around a theme' for Grey Knights is that they have to be Marines. You have to start with Marine stats and basic Marine equipment, and go from there. And they have established lore, which can't be disregarded without alienating fans. So you can't take their stormbolters and give them chainswords for example. I'm not sure why you'd want to, but you understand what I'm saying, yeah?

 

I'll be honest, I disagree with your premise. GK shooting is potent enough, when coupled with our ability to deploy/redeploy. And while I wish Psybolts and Psychic Onslaught were 1cp each instead of 2, they're good abilities. That ten man PAGK squad you mentioned in your first post might only kill 4 boys in CC, but should be able to kill more than twice as many using their stormbolters. And since we can shunt, gate, and teleport strike as well as moving units with transports then even if our opponent has bubblewrapped his force, we can easily deny a flank, concentrate all our forces into a 12" area on one edge of the board, and rip an enormous hole in his lines. Our stormbolters provide a solid baseload of firepower, which can be augmented as needed by accessory shooting from our vehicles or other squads. Purgators firing psilencers with Psychic Onslaught are no joke, nor are three Venerable Dreadnoughts punching six lascannons and 12 autocannon shots down range each turn. And of course our combat abilities are very good too, so we have some leverage in the enemies charge phase and a lot of options in our own charge phase. 

 

Our line-up has holes. For sure. We don't have things like predators or devastators, we don't have scouts or bikers or anything Primaris (thank god) or assault squads or drop pods, so we play a different game, but I disagree with the idea that a split focus (on both shooting and combat) creates a significant weakness in our army.

[Capt. Mytre]

The psychic focus rule does need to scale, but not everyone plays using it.

 

I think the problem with 'building around a theme' for Grey Knights is that they have to be Marines. You have to start with Marine stats and basic Marine equipment, and go from there. And they have established lore, which can't be disregarded without alienating fans. So you can't take their stormbolters and give them chainswords for example. I'm not sure why you'd want to, but you understand what I'm saying, yeah?

 

I'll be honest, I disagree with your premise. GK shooting is potent enough, when coupled with our ability to deploy/redeploy. And while I wish Psybolts and Psychic Onslaught were 1cp each instead of 2, they're good abilities. That ten man PAGK squad you mentioned in your first post might only kill 4 boys in CC, but should be able to kill more than twice as many using their stormbolters. And since we can shunt, gate, and teleport strike as well as moving units with transports then even if our opponent has bubblewrapped his force, we can easily deny a flank, concentrate all our forces into a 12" area on one edge of the board, and rip an enormous hole in his lines. Our stormbolters provide a solid baseload of firepower, which can be augmented as needed by accessory shooting from our vehicles or other squads. Purgators firing psilencers with Psychic Onslaught are no joke, nor are three Venerable Dreadnoughts punching six lascannons and 12 autocannon shots down range each turn. And of course our combat abilities are very good too, so we have some leverage in the enemies charge phase and a lot of options in our own charge phase. 

 

Our line-up has holes. For sure. We don't have things like predators or devastators, we don't have scouts or bikers or anything Primaris (thank god) or assault squads or drop pods, so we play a different game, but I disagree with the idea that a split focus (on both shooting and combat) creates a significant weakness in our army.

 

Anyone not using psychic focus is either not playing matched play, in which case I couldn't care less since Open and PL aren't in the slightest bit balanced, or are removing a clear core rule of the game.

 

Building around a theme and being marines are not mutually exclusive. I'm not asking to disregard the lore, I asking to make it more fluffy. Paladins should be :cussing amazing, given the requirements to become one - but they are just terminators with an extra wound and attack.

 

I'm not asking to become the best army bar none, I'm asking for balanced rules that are fluffy. Right now, we have a horribly uninspired codex that is performing well under par. To me, this is the biggest insult. The amount of effort expended on it amounts to all of Ctrl+c Ctrl+v - and then asking $70 for it. They wasted their chance and now we're stuck with this codex for 1-2 years at least.

[Gentlemanloser]

All the other non codex chapters retain thier established theme, but have a far fuller kit (and again all the new new stuff).

 

Why do GK have to be different?

 

Why do we have to have holes to retain our theme?

 

The arch enemy is the entirety of chaos. From daemons to legions of traitor marines.

 

We shouldn't just be anti daemon focused. That ignores some of the most potent weapons the arch enemy has...

[Adeptus]

Anyone not using psychic focus is either not playing matched play, in which case I couldn't care less since Open and PL aren't in the slightest bit balanced, or are removing a clear core rule of the game.

You say that like normal 40K is in any way balanced, lol!

 

And Psychic focus is not a core rule. It's an additional rule for people who want to play tournament style games.

 

Building around a theme and being marines are not mutually exclusive. I'm not asking to disregard the lore, I asking to make it more fluffy. Paladins should be :cussing amazing, given the requirements to become one - but they are just terminators with an extra wound and attack.

It's not mutually exclusive, but it makes things harder. How do you make Paladins totally awesome without disregarding every other 'totally awesome' terminator type unit out there? Paladins are pretty darn awesome right now already!

 

 

I'm not asking to become the best army bar none, I'm asking for balanced rules that are fluffy.

Which is what you've got.

 

All the other non codex chapters retain thier established theme, but have a far fuller kit (and again all the new new stuff).

 

Why do GK have to be different?

 

Why do we have to have holes to retain our theme?

 

The arch enemy is the entirety of chaos. From daemons to legions of traitor marines.

 

We shouldn't just be anti daemon focused. That ignores some of the most potent weapons the arch enemy has...

I'm not totally familiar with the other non-codex Chapters since I don't play them, but for the Dangles and Bangles, their theme (as an outsider) is basically green paint + plasma guns and red paint + chainswords respectively. Their background is that basically they ARE largely codex chapters, in terms of how their forces are organised and deployed for battle, but with slightly different focuses. Wolves are different, but I don't know what they get in their codex beyond wolves riding wolves with wolf tokens, named wolfy mc wolf-face and wearing wolf pelts and wolf tails.

 

Grey Knights are different. And I like that we're different, and wanting to be more like all the others would make us less different. And I wouldn't like that.

 

I Like that if I want to fill a particular gap, that sometimes I have to look outside the codex.

[Gentlemanloser]

How are we different?

 

We're just nemesis doomy nemesis doomy daemon.

 

If wolves are just wolfy mc wolfface and bangels are bloody mc bloodfist...

 

I don't think you can make an arguement for us losing our theme if our range gets expanded when there are examples of it not happening.

 

Heck we used to be a massive legion sized chapter, like the dangels (or maybe the crusading tempers). Before Wards 5th edition retcon to UM style brotherhoods.

[Adeptus]

It depends on how you interpret theme. To me, the Dangels and Bangels don't really HAVE a theme. They have a soft army focus, and a specific paintjob. Other than that, they go about their business in almost exactly the same way as all the other codex chapters.

 

GK are a specialist secret chapter, created to fight a specific foe. Not heretics or traitor astartes, but Daemons with a capital D.

 

Making us more like other Space Marines makes us... well... more like other Space Marines. Which would make me sad. I like being different.

[Danarc]

Yes, but we have a totally dedicated forge world? What did they do in the last 10k years? And what are they doing now? Only building armour, psycannon incenerator and psilencer? for 1000 brothers? An entire world? 
I can't believe. Deimos should grant us the access to every SM vehicle and stuff. And maybe should assembly some of them with psystuff cannons. It is crazy that we are a second foundation chapter and do not have anything but LR, razor, rhino and interceptors. Where are our contemptors? Our pretty? thunderfire? LR variants? BIKE? JETBIKE? JUMP PACK?

 

Actually I don't really want all these stuff, I know that bikes don't fit with GK lore and Jump packs too, but giving us some tank options could really helping us, while we wait for new models, like:
 

- PAGK snipers (with psyrifle)

- Jetbike

- Termy with STORMSHIELD (is it really possible that we have tons of terminator armour and ONLY ONE STORMSHIELD?)

+ all the changes listed in this (and others) topic.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Danarc

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes we fight Daemons. And we're the best designed to do so. But we are the last bastion against Chaos. With a capital C.

 

We're no longer a secret chapter, Bobby G has us aboard his great crusade. And we were never secret to begin with. Too many other Marines has encountered us for us to remain in any way secret.

 

We *are* different. But being forced into a tiny shoebox of availability isn't a good way of showing that difference.

 

Especially as it makes zero sense in the in game narrative.

 

Also i think a lot of players would take massive humbridge at your dismissal of theme for the other non codex chapters...

 

What makes you think GK aren't just another reskinned Marine chapter like them then? We fight demons with vastly reduced options? That's not a 'theme'.

[Adeptus]

Paladins with stormshields would be pretty boss.

[swordofmandulis]

I totally agree that paladins should be able to swap their storm bolter for a storm shield, or even swap it to their right hand and keep it... now that would be immense.

[Gentlemanloser]

We used to have TH/SS option as base for our GKT...

[Gentlemanloser]

While not specifically designed to do so, mostly every other marine chapter at some point has faced Daemons in battle.

 

The GK design, both thematically and narratively is that we're are all psykers. That's how we've been design to face the warp.

 

I'll c&p some quotes from the codex. Posting this before my phone eats it.

 

I also like this entry;

 

"And such weapons of war! Even in the 41st Millenium no army in all the Imperium can boast wargear so technologically advanced <snip> such is the fruits bourne of ancient pacts with the Adeptus Mechanics"

 

Apart from cawl i guess. Any way back to the psykers.

 

"The chapter as a whole is tasked with walking the razor-thin line that lies between psychic empowerment and absolute corruption"

 

"To this end each battle-brother is an accomplished psyker"

 

That is our 'theme'. A chapter of pure psykers, designed to be the last resort versus chaos. With the best technology the entire imperium and even xenos alliances can provide.

 

That is somewhat backed up in game with our chapter tactics and every squad having access to psychic powers.

 

Expanding our available units, or wargear options detracts *nothing* from this.

 

Unless were given non psyker options. Which would be, weird. And not something id want.

 

"In any other warrior this flow of escaping energy would prove an irresistible lure to Daemons, and the psyker be innately courrupted to thier vile desires. However, such is a Grey Knights sanctity of soul that his psychic energy is unpalatable to all but the most ravenous of warp entities."

Edited November 2, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Corvus Fortis]

I really don't understand, why GK doesn't have Predators, Vindicators and other SM stuff. We even got planes this edition. Whats wrong with other vehicles? And we really need some type of psylas or psymelta. I mean, fluffwise GK face daemon enignes during incursions. How they supposed to deal with them? They need some anti-armor gun to take them out. Or do they rely only on good old hammer?