How to flesh out a traitor legions?

[Nubster]

So still debating on an army. Leaning heavy towards Blood Angels but there's still a part of me that wants to go Chaos. I don't want to play actual Chaos Marines or run daemons (or too many of them) or Death Guard. I'd like to roll with a more standard looking Space Marine army but of course painted in the appropriate traitor theme. 

 

So how would one go about doing something like that? I'd assume regular SM's and just paint to fit the legion theme? I'm asking since there aren't models specific to these legions like there are for a lot of the "good guys". Rule-wise...how does that work? Are there rules in the Chaos codex for traitor legion armies? Or will there be a codex coming out for traitor legions? 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Nubster

[DreamIsCollapsing]

There is rules for "Renegates Space marine" in the chaos book. It work for all the non-primordial legion traitor Space marine, would it be well known chapter like Red corsair or a personnal chapter recently turning traitor. 

 

Fyi it give the special rule "can charge after advance" to all your infantry, biker and Dreadnought.

 

Don't expect a codex only for renegate, EC & WE are surely the next to come for chaos. 

 

Rule wise you got your CT, relics. Note that you would have all the chaos stratagem exept one (VotLW add +1 to wound for this phase). 

If you dont want daemon and stuff, you can totally play a chaos army without any daemon & mark of god. But let's be clear, you will have an underpowered army. Chaos are not the big guys they werent supposed to be in this edition, and if you cut Daemon prince, Endless cacophony, Obliterators etc...

[Nubster]

Well...I just don't want a mostly daemon army. A couple as needed is fine. Just not a bunch of troops that are daemons. And I'm not crazy about the Chaos Marine models. All the horns and spikes...not my style. Guess it would be easy enough to swap helms for ones without horns. Horns on a daemon isn't bad...just don't like them on the marines. And Obliterators...they are actually kinda cool. Just trying to avoid Nurgle, Death Guard, monster type stuff in general. In my head...I'm thinking Chaos Blood Angels type army and models. Sorry for being such a newb. Just a new guy that's lost is a huge jungle of options and it's very confusing with all the armies that are possibly (or not possible).

[Lord Asvaldir]

Models wise keeping to no horns/spikes should be easy- just use MKIII/IV armor models which work perfectly to represent heresy era traitors who haven't been mutated by the effects of the warp. In terms of a list it is possible to use no daemons at all-just use the standard marine vehicles like predators, land raiders etc, standard marines for your troops and havocs/raptors can also easily be made using MKIII/IV armor so they don't look too mutated. You'll certainly be missing out on some units like all the daemon engines but it's definetly doable. 

[DreamIsCollapsing]

You can make an entire army of renegates with SM box or MkIII/IV armor. 

 

You can totally make a Blood angel affilated chapter renegate by using Blood angel box. 

 

For Standard troops the only thing you will miss are Icons, Chaos don't have special weapon you won't find in loyalist boxes. 

 

Fyi Blood angel and Emperor's children share a lots in common on the esthetic part. Maybe that's a way to use your favorite models while using a chaos space marine army. You will get an excuse for those aquila on your mini, you can even play with Primaris count as chaos space marine. 

 

 

(Yep, that's an EC)

Edited October 23, 2017 by DreamIsCollapsing

[N1SB]

Hi Nubster, hi guys,

 

I remember you mentioned you traded your Warmachine stuff for Blood Angels back in your introduction: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340431-woke-up-one-day-and-saw-the-light-or-was-it-dark/

 

I'll keep that in mind as I 1st answer your questions, then 2nd provide just 1 idea, based on what you've talked about before (I saw your Blood Angels thread as well).

 

So still debating on an army. Leaning heavy towards Blood Angels but there's still a part of me that wants to go Chaos. I don't want to play actual Chaos Marines or run daemons (or too many of them) or Death Guard. I'd like to roll with a more standard looking Space Marine army but of course painted in the appropriate traitor theme. 

 

So how would one go about doing something like that? I'd assume regular SM's and just paint to fit the legion theme? I'm asking since there aren't models specific to these legions like there are for a lot of the "good guys". Rule-wise...how does that work? Are there rules in the Chaos codex for traitor legion armies? Or will there be a codex coming out for traitor legions? 

 

Rules-wise, there is a new Chaos Space Marine Codex.  Came out just after the new regular (loyalist) Space Marine Codex, which covers most Chapters.  Then there is also, just out this month, the Death Guard Codex; even though they are a type of Chaos Space Marines, they got some special treatment.  Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves historically have gotten the same special treatment, in that they'll get their own unique Codex, but they just haven't come out yet.  They are all different books with different rules; they share some similarities, because they're all Marines.

 

In short, for a newcomer, it's best to think of Chaos Space Marines, regular (loyalist) Space Marines, and the Death Guard as different armies.  The differences between them are not just their aesthetics/colour scheme/models.  They do have some different units, wargear options, Strategems, etc.  If you wish to play Chaos Space Marines, it would make more sense to use the Chaos Space Marine Codex.

 

(Don't worry too much about which Codex is over-powered, which one has the newer rules, etc.  It turns out, we've got 4 new Codexes since 8th edition started just in the summer.  So far, except for 1 tank...guys, I'm referring to Leman Russes...nothing has been too over-powered with newer rules.  I say this as, just yesterday, a new Codex that seemed over-powered got an Errata/FAQ that nerfed them back to quite a reasonable level.  I think you just want variety rather than fancy rules anyway.)

 

So Chaos Space Marines are different than their loyalist counterparts, you get that.  Even within Chaos Space Marines, as you already mentioned, there are different Traitor Legions.  Each Legion has a Legion Trait that gives their their units a special rule.  In other words, let's say you have 2 players that picked the same units in their armies; they both have some regular Chaos Space Marines, some Terminators, some Dreadnoughts (known as Helbrutes).  Well, depending on the Legion they picked (which should be represented by their paint scheme), one may be better at shooting or close combat or survivability than the other.  It's a great way to personalise them.

 

Now, let's get to some options of particular relevance to you.  This is about what DreamIsCollapsing mentioned above, about the catch-all Renegade Chapters.

 

Well...I just don't want a mostly daemon army. A couple as needed is fine. Just not a bunch of troops that are daemons. And I'm not crazy about the Chaos Marine models. All the horns and spikes...not my style. Guess it would be easy enough to swap helms for ones without horns. Horns on a daemon isn't bad...just don't like them on the marines. And Obliterators...they are actually kinda cool. Just trying to avoid Nurgle, Death Guard, monster type stuff in general. In my head...I'm thinking Chaos Blood Angels type army and models. Sorry for being such a newb. Just a new guy that's lost is a huge jungle of options and it's very confusing with all the armies that are possibly (or not possible).

 

Horns and spikey bits are so NOT required to be Chaos Space Marines.  In fact, certain Legions kinda shy from them; many players of the Traitor Legion known as Iron Warriors deliberately choose more normal-looking armour types, as do another Traitor Legion known as Alpha Legion.  These are Legions that haven't quite embraced the Chaos gods as other Legions have, they just basically betrayed the Imperium for their own reasons.  They will USE Chaos rather than worship it.

 

For someone in your situation, you've already traded for some normal-looking Marines (what we usually call Mark VII armour).  You've got your own ideas, cool, and probably will not go for the aforementioned Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion.  You probably are best served by treating them/telling your fellow players they're a Renegade Chapter.  Renegade Chapters get their own Legion Trait, which make them a bit more suited towards close combat.

 

Renegade Chapters represent once-loyal Space Marines that recently turned to Chaos.  It's like a catch-all category.  The other Legions have turned to Chaos 10,000 years ago.  You can STILL get Obliterators, or a Daemon Prince, etc.  This is what I myself use.  I also don't use spikey evil-looking Marines, just Marines no longer sure which side of the long war they're on, and why.

 

The result is, you get to use the regular-looking Marines you already traded for.  But you use the Chaos Space Marines Codex, with the Renegade Chapters Trait in mind.  Whatever your colour scheme...perhaps paint them more worn, battle-damaged, blood-splattered, mud-covered, etc., to represent both that they're a bit more worn out as they no longer get support from the Imperium plus the fact they're like a little corrupted.

 

I've answered and provided context to the questions you asked and what I reckon you would ask; we were all in a similar situation once.  8th edition have simplified things, but there really have been so many options over the years, I can see it's like drinking from a firehose.  I hoped to help you sift out the right ideas.

 

+++++

 

And now, 1 suggestion from me.  More like a question:

 

Would you consider a corrupted Blood Raven army instead?

 

There's a really good reason for this.  In Dawn of War II: Chaos Rising, the storyline actually allows you to basically turn to Chaos based on what you do in the game.  The army you could make is that what-if scenario.  If anything Dawn of War II: Retribution basically confirms at least part of the Chapter did fall to Chaos.  This is something that gives you more room to play with different ideas, drawing SOME stuff from Chaos Daemons, etc., while kinda exploring a lore that other players would think "huh, that's really cool."  You'll still be using the models you traded for, with the Renegade Chapters Trait for now probably, and access things like Obliterators and some Daemons.

 

There's another interesting reason.  One day, sooner rather than later (I don't want to specify a time and cause false hope), there will very likely be a Thousand Sons Codex.  They're like another Chaos Space Marines that'll get special treatment.  If you use those rules, for reasons you may not realise yet because I'm not sure how much of the lore you've explored (not necessary, it's just really fun sometimes), veteran players will be like "that totally makes sense and is hilarious and awesome."  This gives you something to look forward to.

 

It's hard to explain, and I'm not out to put down your ideas, but I feel Traitor Blood Angels feel out of place.  You can rationalise it, but I reckon a lot of players will also feel it's just a little off and it might irritate you in the future.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Not 1 Step Backwards

[ChazSexington]

So still debating on an army. Leaning heavy towards Blood Angels but there's still a part of me that wants to go Chaos. I don't want to play actual Chaos Marines or run daemons (or too many of them) or Death Guard. I'd like to roll with a more standard looking Space Marine army but of course painted in the appropriate traitor theme. 

 

So how would one go about doing something like that? I'd assume regular SM's and just paint to fit the legion theme? I'm asking since there aren't models specific to these legions like there are for a lot of the "good guys". Rule-wise...how does that work? Are there rules in the Chaos codex for traitor legion armies? Or will there be a codex coming out for traitor legions? 

 

To be honest, any Legion/Warband you pick can be standard looking, though I would say the Cult Legions and Word Bearers are less likely to look "normal," lore-wise, but don't let that stop you. Stoic, meditative Word Bearers, Emperor's Children that aren't full believers in She-Who-Thirsts etc. They are Your Dudes. If you want Traitor Blood Angels, that's not a problem - maybe they pledged their allegiance to Khorne for aid while the Tyranids omnomnomed their system. Then I would opt for either using World Eater or Renegade rules.

 

The main solution is mixing of kits. However, the aesthetics don't always match too well (both due to the age difference and style), so be careful about that from an aesthetics PoV. However, there's no problem lore-wise mixing armour marks; the Traitor Legions have been replacing their armour with pieces from the Corpse-Gods lickspittles for millenias. I've gone a different way; I've opted for normal CSMs, but without adding too many extras, like trophy racks. 

 

There are models specific for the Legions available from Forge World, in addition to bits you might find interesting. 

 

As far as codices are concerned, Thousand Sons are rumoured to be getting their new one a little before Christmas, with their current army list in the Index. Both Chaos Space Marines (which contains rules for all Traitor Legions bar Death Guard and Thousand Sons) and the Death Guard have their own codices, but I presume the World Eaters and Emperor's Children will be getting their own codices at some point (but don't hold your breath).

[Iron Skull Mask]

If you would like to play a chaos legion which is not that spikey or daemonic, look into Night Lords and Iron Warriors. The Night Lords are brutal Batmans on crack, using terror and cruelty as tactics. Raptors and Bikes have been established as signature units, but of course they can be anything you want. Iron Warriors are cold-hearted siege specialists for whom war is an equation. Signature units are Obliterators, tanks and heavy weapons - but of course they also can be anything you want (The novel "Siege of Castellax" prominently features Iron Warrior Raptors). If you like to read, there is a very nice trilogy about the Night Lords by Aaron Dembski-Bowden ("Soulhunter", "Blood Reaver", "Void Stalker"). The definining novel on the Iron Warriors is called "Storm of Iron" by Graham McNeill. They are all available over at blacklibrary.com. If don't want to read whole novels, you can look at w40k.lexicanum.com there are also article on both legions.

[Trevak Dal]

Feel you on the horns and spikes motif. I used to joke with a friend of mine back in 7th that I tended to make more armor saves because my guys didn't have any horns or spikes to provide a grip for an opponent to hold, and his pelt covered, bearded space wolves got handled for being unkempt and unprofessional not wearing helmets.

 

Any legion can be as corrupt or as uncorrupt as you want (with exceptions being maybe death guard and ksons, though you could run a Purge army using regular csm/b@c guys and not take any of the Rotten McFat Butt, Snot Nose Cholera Guy characters or things (I'm not up on their characters, but it's very Wolfy McWolf, and Bloody Blood Blood again)

Edited October 24, 2017 by Trevak Dal

[Lhorke The First]

Yeah spikes are definitely not required. Personally, I love the World Eaters, yet I'm not a fan of spikes and mutations everywhere. Therefore I am modeling my army as how I think the legion would have looked during the Siege of Terra or the Scouring, directly after the Horus Heresy and before the traitor legions retreated into the Eye of Terror. I am using a mixture of MK III and MK IV kits for the majority of the troops. For the terminators, I am using tartaros kits. For the cult aligned units, such as the Khorne Berzerkers, I am combining MK II, III, and IV kits with chainaxes from the berzerker kit. There is a huge variety of parts that you can use, it just takes a little bit of thought and experimentation to come up with a cool aesthetic.

 

Much of the character comes from how you choose to paint an army. For the regular troops I am using the old legion paint scheme for the world eaters. For the berzerkers and other more devoted marines, I am using much more red and brass to signify their allegiance to Khorne.

 

Just get a good idea of how you want to model and paint your troops. Take a look at the components of the major marine kits out there and look at Forge World's accessories. Also, ebay is a great source for deals on bits.

[Nubster]

Hi Nubster, hi guys,

 

I remember you mentioned you traded your Warmachine stuff for Blood Angels back in your introduction: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340431-woke-up-one-day-and-saw-the-light-or-was-it-dark/

 

I'll keep that in mind as I 1st answer your questions, then 2nd provide just 1 idea, based on what you've talked about before (I saw your Blood Angels thread as well).

 

So still debating on an army. Leaning heavy towards Blood Angels but there's still a part of me that wants to go Chaos. I don't want to play actual Chaos Marines or run daemons (or too many of them) or Death Guard. I'd like to roll with a more standard looking Space Marine army but of course painted in the appropriate traitor theme. 

 

So how would one go about doing something like that? I'd assume regular SM's and just paint to fit the legion theme? I'm asking since there aren't models specific to these legions like there are for a lot of the "good guys". Rule-wise...how does that work? Are there rules in the Chaos codex for traitor legion armies? Or will there be a codex coming out for traitor legions? 

 

Rules-wise, there is a new Chaos Space Marine Codex.  Came out just after the new regular (loyalist) Space Marine Codex, which covers most Chapters.  Then there is also, just out this month, the Death Guard Codex; even though they are a type of Chaos Space Marines, they got some special treatment.  Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves historically have gotten the same special treatment, in that they'll get their own unique Codex, but they just haven't come out yet.  They are all different books with different rules; they share some similarities, because they're all Marines.

 

In short, for a newcomer, it's best to think of Chaos Space Marines, regular (loyalist) Space Marines, and the Death Guard as different armies.  The differences between them are not just their aesthetics/colour scheme/models.  They do have some different units, wargear options, Strategems, etc.  If you wish to play Chaos Space Marines, it would make more sense to use the Chaos Space Marine Codex.

 

(Don't worry too much about which Codex is over-powered, which one has the newer rules, etc.  It turns out, we've got 4 new Codexes since 8th edition started just in the summer.  So far, except for 1 tank...guys, I'm referring to Leman Russes...nothing has been too over-powered with newer rules.  I say this as, just yesterday, a new Codex that seemed over-powered got an Errata/FAQ that nerfed them back to quite a reasonable level.  I think you just want variety rather than fancy rules anyway.)

 

So Chaos Space Marines are different than their loyalist counterparts, you get that.  Even within Chaos Space Marines, as you already mentioned, there are different Traitor Legions.  Each Legion has a Legion Trait that gives their their units a special rule.  In other words, let's say you have 2 players that picked the same units in their armies; they both have some regular Chaos Space Marines, some Terminators, some Dreadnoughts (known as Helbrutes).  Well, depending on the Legion they picked (which should be represented by their paint scheme), one may be better at shooting or close combat or survivability than the other.  It's a great way to personalise them.

 

Now, let's get to some options of particular relevance to you.  This is about what DreamIsCollapsing mentioned above, about the catch-all Renegade Chapters.

 

Well...I just don't want a mostly daemon army. A couple as needed is fine. Just not a bunch of troops that are daemons. And I'm not crazy about the Chaos Marine models. All the horns and spikes...not my style. Guess it would be easy enough to swap helms for ones without horns. Horns on a daemon isn't bad...just don't like them on the marines. And Obliterators...they are actually kinda cool. Just trying to avoid Nurgle, Death Guard, monster type stuff in general. In my head...I'm thinking Chaos Blood Angels type army and models. Sorry for being such a newb. Just a new guy that's lost is a huge jungle of options and it's very confusing with all the armies that are possibly (or not possible).

 

Horns and spikey bits are so NOT required to be Chaos Space Marines.  In fact, certain Legions kinda shy from them; many players of the Traitor Legion known as Iron Warriors deliberately choose more normal-looking armour types, as do another Traitor Legion known as Alpha Legion.  These are Legions that haven't quite embraced the Chaos gods as other Legions have, they just basically betrayed the Imperium for their own reasons.  They will USE Chaos rather than worship it.

 

For someone in your situation, you've already traded for some normal-looking Marines (what we usually call Mark VII armour).  You've got your own ideas, cool, and probably will not go for the aforementioned Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion.  You probably are best served by treating them/telling your fellow players they're a Renegade Chapter.  Renegade Chapters get their own Legion Trait, which make them a bit more suited towards close combat.

 

Renegade Chapters represent once-loyal Space Marines that recently turned to Chaos.  It's like a catch-all category.  The other Legions have turned to Chaos 10,000 years ago.  You can STILL get Obliterators, or a Daemon Prince, etc.  This is what I myself use.  I also don't use spikey evil-looking Marines, just Marines no longer sure which side of the long war they're on, and why.

 

The result is, you get to use the regular-looking Marines you already traded for.  But you use the Chaos Space Marines Codex, with the Renegade Chapters Trait in mind.  Whatever your colour scheme...perhaps paint them more worn, battle-damaged, blood-splattered, mud-covered, etc., to represent both that they're a bit more worn out as they no longer get support from the Imperium plus the fact they're like a little corrupted.

 

I've answered and provided context to the questions you asked and what I reckon you would ask; we were all in a similar situation once.  8th edition have simplified things, but there really have been so many options over the years, I can see it's like drinking from a firehose.  I hoped to help you sift out the right ideas.

 

+++++

 

And now, 1 suggestion from me.  More like a question:

 

Would you consider a corrupted Blood Raven army instead?

 

There's a really good reason for this.  In Dawn of War II: Chaos Rising, the storyline actually allows you to basically turn to Chaos based on what you do in the game.  The army you could make is that what-if scenario.  If anything Dawn of War II: Retribution basically confirms at least part of the Chapter did fall to Chaos.  This is something that gives you more room to play with different ideas, drawing SOME stuff from Chaos Daemons, etc., while kinda exploring a lore that other players would think "huh, that's really cool."  You'll still be using the models you traded for, with the Renegade Chapters Trait for now probably, and access things like Obliterators and some Daemons.

 

There's another interesting reason.  One day, sooner rather than later (I don't want to specify a time and cause false hope), there will very likely be a Thousand Sons Codex.  They're like another Chaos Space Marines that'll get special treatment.  If you use those rules, for reasons you may not realise yet because I'm not sure how much of the lore you've explored (not necessary, it's just really fun sometimes), veteran players will be like "that totally makes sense and is hilarious and awesome."  This gives you something to look forward to.

 

It's hard to explain, and I'm not out to put down your ideas, but I feel Traitor Blood Angels feel out of place.  You can rationalise it, but I reckon a lot of players will also feel it's just a little off and it might irritate you in the future.

Damn dude...awesome response. I really appreciate that and it shines a lot of light on my questions.

 

As far as the BA's...I haven't actually traded for them, yet. The story is...friend of mine owns a hobby shop that sells GW stuff. He's primarily a KoW player as I was too. I was building an army for KoW using Privateer Press models and decided to scrap the project. He's on a budget but wants the models. He offered to trade and he's taking his side of the trade from the shelves of the store. So at the time we talked trade...I was in for BA's. But since he's out of country for another week or 10 days...we haven't actually made the trade. I'm assuming he's ok with changing up the trade...and letting me grab other stuff that he has in stock or maybe even just "buying" my stuff giving me store credit for his shop. I'd have to check to see...but both options are probably something doable. 

 

So...I'm not locked into the BA models yet. However...I'm also not opposed to your corrupted Blood Raven suggestion either. In fact...when I was initially drawn to BA's...I wanted to do Blood Ravens...but as I looked into them...it got kinda muddy since they are but aren't BA's? I don't know...that's where the newbness really kicked in not really knowing the fluff or understanding all the chapters and legions and how they work or don't work...***head spins***...lol

 

But...again...since I'm not locked into the models yet...I'm still pretty free for looking at the various options and suggestions.

[Nubster]

If you would like to play a chaos legion which is not that spikey or daemonic, look into Night Lords and Iron Warriors. The Night Lords are brutal Batmans on crack, using terror and cruelty as tactics. Raptors and Bikes have been established as signature units, but of course they can be anything you want. Iron Warriors are cold-hearted siege specialists for whom war is an equation. Signature units are Obliterators, tanks and heavy weapons - but of course they also can be anything you want (The novel "Siege of Castellax" prominently features Iron Warrior Raptors). If you like to read, there is a very nice trilogy about the Night Lords by Aaron Dembski-Bowden ("Soulhunter", "Blood Reaver", "Void Stalker"). The definining novel on the Iron Warriors is called "Storm of Iron" by Graham McNeill. They are all available over at blacklibrary.com. If don't want to read whole novels, you can look at w40k.lexicanum.com there are also article on both legions.

Thanks. I do like to read...though I haven't done much lately. But I'll check those out. I just got my first book...Horus Rising...but haven't dug into it yet. And thanks for the info. Both those legions sound pretty appealing really. Now that I have some new found hope that I can do a Chaos army without having to resort to Chaos Marine models or some serious kit bashing/modifications...I'm going to give this another hard look. I didn't know about the MKIII and MKIV stuff until about 30 minutes ago and the models that are available out of the Betrayal at Calth box and the Burning of Prospero box...so I thought I was stuck with either expensive FW stuff or having to create my own which I'm not good at. 

[Panzer]

 

In fact...when I was initially drawn to BA's...I wanted to do Blood Ravens...but as I looked into them...it got kinda muddy since they are but aren't BA's? I don't know...that's where the newbness really kicked in not really knowing the fluff or understanding all the chapters and legions and how they work or don't work...***head spins***...lol

 

So here's where you went after the BA thread! :D

 

I can answer that for you:

They aren't Blood Angels. Like at all. They aren't BA successors and don't have anything to do with Blood Angels.

It's likely the creators of DoW wanted to include BA but wanted to do their own thing with them so they created a chapter that's thematically very close to BA (red, blood + winged creature as name, more than the usual amount of psyker) but that's neither confirmed nor busted. So far Blood Ravens are their own thing with unknown origin (not TSons tho, that much got said eventually).

[N1SB]

 

So...I'm not locked into the BA models yet. However...I'm also not opposed to your corrupted Blood Raven suggestion either. In fact...when I was initially drawn to BA's...I wanted to do Blood Ravens...but as I looked into them...it got kinda muddy since they are but aren't BA's? I don't know...that's where the newbness really kicked in not really knowing the fluff or understanding all the chapters and legions and how they work or don't work...***head spins***...lol

 

But...again...since I'm not locked into the models yet...I'm still pretty free for looking at the various options and suggestions.

 

 

 

That's perfect.  I actually appreciate where you're coming from, meaning I understand and I like the fact you're trying to meet veteran players half-way.

 

Long story short, whereas the Blood Ravens were seen as the new kids in school when they 1st appeared in Dawn of War, they have totally EARNED their place in the 40k universe IMHO.  So much so, there's some Forgeworld tie-ins (and to fellow 30k players that read HH7: Inferno, yes, you know of what I speak).

 

Example - Forgeworld actually released a Blood Ravens special character: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-ES/Gabriel-Angelos-2017

 

I see why you started talking about Blood Angels and I like how you were trying to find like a compromise.  It turns out, the Blood Ravens are NOT at all related to Blood Angels; that was a red herring.  In fact, it's more likely Blood Ravens are related to a Traitor Legion, and that's the secret they want to keep hidden.

 

Let me tell you more about that.  There's a huge meta-plot/Easter Egg that's just cross-game/genre that might be of huge interest to you.

 

EDIT - thanks to sfPanzer's correcting me, I found that connection is ALSO a red herring.  Gonna stick to being corrupted in DoW2: Chaos Rising.

 

But also, using Horus Heresy-era models in the Betrayal at Calth set or something is also a great idea.  The Iron Warriors really liked Mk III armour.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Not 1 Step Backwards

[N1SB]

 

So far Blood Ravens are their own thing with unknown origin (not TSons tho, that much got said eventually).

 

 

Brother Panzer, I haven't gotten around to playing DoW III yet, so did they outright rule out the KSons connection pls?  I might have been mistaken.

[Panzer]

 

 

So...I'm not locked into the BA models yet. However...I'm also not opposed to your corrupted Blood Raven suggestion either. In fact...when I was initially drawn to BA's...I wanted to do Blood Ravens...but as I looked into them...it got kinda muddy since they are but aren't BA's? I don't know...that's where the newbness really kicked in not really knowing the fluff or understanding all the chapters and legions and how they work or don't work...***head spins***...lol

 

But...again...since I'm not locked into the models yet...I'm still pretty free for looking at the various options and suggestions.

 

 

 

That's perfect.  I actually appreciate where you're coming from, meaning I understand and I like the fact you're trying to meet veteran players half-way.

 

Long story short, whereas the Blood Ravens were seen as the new kids in school when they 1st appeared in Dawn of War, they have totally EARNED their place in the 40k universe IMHO.  So much so, there's some Forgeworld tie-ins (and to fellow 30k players that read HH7: Inferno, yes, you know of what I speak).

 

Example - Forgeworld actually released a Blood Ravens special character: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-ES/Gabriel-Angelos-2017

 

I see why you started talking about Blood Angels and I like how you were trying to find like a compromise.  It turns out, the Blood Ravens are NOT at all related to Blood Angels; that was a red herring.  In fact, it's more likely Blood Ravens are related to a Traitor Legion, and that's the secret they want to keep hidden.

 

Let me tell you more about that.  There's a huge meta-plot/Easter Egg that's just cross-game/genre that might be of huge interest to you.

 

But also, using Horus Heresy-era models in the Betrayal at Calth set or something is also a great idea.  The Iron Warriors really liked Mk III armour.

 

Speaking of Gabriel Angelos, that unit is only useable if you decide to make a loyalist army since it has the faction keyword "Imperium" instead of "Chaos".

If you are a Blood Ravens fan and interested in starting a Blood Ravens army, I'd definitely get that model (and replace that head lol). For rules...well since it's unknown what's their parent chapter you are actually pretty open about what Chapter tactic to use. Ultramarine chapter tactics fit many 'generic' kind of chapters so is probably the most obvious choice, however Salamanders wouldn't be a bad choice either (representing all the 'interesting' gear the Blood Ravens have aquired from wherever ;) ).

 

 

So far Blood Ravens are their own thing with unknown origin (not TSons tho, that much got said eventually).

 

 

Brother Panzer, I haven't gotten around to playing DoW III yet, so did they outright rule out the KSons connection pls?  I might have been mistaken.

 

Has nothing to do with DoW3. I haven't finished that one either since I think it's pretty bad compared to DoW1 and DoW2.

Iirc they mentioned it in an interview in the past that they aren't TSon successors.

[Nubster]

So I'm still diggin' this whole corrupted Blood Raven idea. Since it's clear that they are NOT affiliated with BA's obviously using BA models to make BR's wouldn't be the best idea. I'm guessing just some generic SM's painted up appropriately with correct decals would be the best bet. I was previously even throwing around the idea of doing an army using Primaris models cause the look pretty badass but not making them Primaris stats. I understand that could cause some potential issues or even not be allowed in a tournament...so that idea is still kinda on the back burner. But I think with paint and weapon conversions as needed...and very clear explanation to my opponent...it shouldn't even be an issue. I can see the Betrayal at Calth models definitely working in a pinch too and they are cheap and be a little more generic as far as markings. Not going to lie though...I really like the models with the Aquila on the chest but I'm guessing that would be kinda out of fluff on a Chaos army? Probably wouldn't be too terribly difficult to carve and whittle a spot to attach a 3rd party Blood Raven insignia to the chest of a more generic model. 

 

Another question...if I went with the corrupted Blood Raven idea...would I just use Chaos Marine army stats and units or one of the other legions of my choosing?

[Panzer]

 

Another question...if I went with the corrupted Blood Raven idea...would I just use Chaos Marine army stats and units or one of the other legions of my choosing?

Well the most appropriate thing to take would be the Renegade Legion trait from the CSM Codex since that one isn't bound to any specific legion and is more for generic non-Legion traitors, however if you think a different Legions trait fits better you could take that one instead really. Just make sure to not switch all the time (except for testing of course) or it could annoy your regular opponents.

World Eater and Emperor's Children would be the most unfitting traits probably tho since they would force you to take a specific Mark of Chaos on all your units.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Speaking of Gabriel Angelos, that unit is only useable if you decide to make a loyalist army since it has the faction keyword "Imperium" instead of "Chaos".

 

 

But.. you can still use this model if it please you as a Chaos lord/sorcerer/exalted champ whatever. 

 

As long as you warn your opponent before battle and keep far away of tournament and other strict places. 

[N1SB]

 

I was previously even throwing around the idea of doing an army using Primaris models cause the look pretty badass but not making them Primaris stats. I understand that could cause some potential issues or even not be allowed in a tournament...so that idea is still kinda on the back burner. But I think with paint and weapon conversions as needed...and very clear explanation to my opponent...it shouldn't even be an issue. I can see the Betrayal at Calth models definitely working in a pinch too and they are cheap and be a little more generic as far as markings. Not going to lie though...I really like the models with the Aquila on the chest but I'm guessing that would be kinda out of fluff on a Chaos army? Probably wouldn't be too terribly difficult to carve and whittle a spot to attach a 3rd party Blood Raven insignia to the chest of a more generic model. 

 

Another question...if I went with the corrupted Blood Raven idea...would I just use Chaos Marine army stats and units or one of the other legions of my choosing?

 

I hear you, but let me share this.

 

The armour type (i.e. Primaris armour, the Betrayal at Calth's Mark IV armour) is a BIGGER problem than adornments like the Aquila.  The Aquila, in some ways, is like the spikes & horns; it's not a deal breaker.  It's much easier to forgive the Aquila (these renegade Blood Ravens had to flee quickly and have been on the move, didn't have time to modify their armour) than it is for wearing the wrong armour type.

 

It's totally understandable you're not aware of this.  We've grown so accustomed to this we took it for granted, but I'll summarise:

 

Mark IV "Maximus" power armour - is like the vintage sports car of power armours.  Designed and made at the height of the Imperium's glory 10,000 years ago, this was meant to be the ultimate power armour design.  They were lighter, more flexible, yet still offers the same protection than most other armour types.  Later patterns were actually less advanced, but cheaper to produce, and the Mark IV remains a case of "they don't make them like this anymore".  Makes total sense for the original Traitor Legions, like Alpha Legion.  Would not make sense for Blood Ravens to have this IMHO.

 

Mark VII "Aquila" power armour - the standard armour type for most of the game's history.  If I were to choose an armour to go with corrupted Blood Ravens as a spin-off of what we see in the Dawn of War II series, it'd be this, because that's what they're using when they're on the run, don't have the luxury to change that yet.

 

Mark X power armours - are totally new things, only available to Primaris Marines, because they have a different physiology, like they're actually taller.  There were basically only available in the new ongoing setting of 8th edition.  They actually tie-in with recent events and is not just an aesthetic choice.  They really denote loyalist Marines created during this modern era of 40k.

 

In fact, none of the armours are just aesthetic choices, they are fluff-based.  It'd be like trying to do a historical documentary in clothing from a different time period, that's what will look way out of place.  It's a far more important aspect than having the Chaos symbol or not, if I were to paint a corrupted Blood Raven I'd use the normal appearance in the Dawn of War series, but much more worn, muddied, to show the stain without and within.

 

+++++

 

As we've all said before, running corrupted Blood Ravens, use the Chaos Space Marine Codex, with the Renegade Chapters legion trait.  That's the best fit.

 

Alternatively, let's say you go with loyalist Primaris Blood Ravens.  That'd be the regular Space Marine Codex.  The go-to "Chapter Tactic" (which is like a legion trait) would be Ultramarines.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Not 1 Step Backwards

[Nubster]

How about if I change directions a little and start considering World Eaters and Iron Warriors? Both seem to have a story and style I can get behind. Still need to see which would be the best fit...but I was thinking the older MKIII or MKIV armor from the Betrayal at Calth or Burning of Prospero box set for the general troops with a mix of other things as needed.

 

I wish I wasn't so indecisive....lol....budget, time, and dedication will only let me build and play one army....at least for some time. I just want to make sure I get it as right as I can first time out. I've lost a lot of money buying and selling models for KoW trying to iron out what I wanted to play. Need to stop doing that. 

[Panzer]

With World Eaters I'd wait a little longer. It's very likely that we're going to see a World Eater Codex plus models released sometime in 2018.

 

With Iron Warriors you're good to go. Cool army, unique color scheme with their stripes (maybe a bit hard at the beginning tho) and we aren't expecting any rules or model releases for the non-big four legions anytime soon (or at all lol). They also look pretty awesome in MKIII armor.

[totgeboren]

 

Iirc they mentioned it in an interview in the past that they aren't TSon successors.

 

 

But it was basically outright stated that they were in the Age of Darkness anthology?

The BR background is as mysterious as the background of a chapter of vampire-marines that are afflicted by battle-madness with an unknown heritage would be. :p

 

@Nubster. If you wanna know a bit more on the background of the different factions, Lexicanum is a pretty ok source.

 

You are not the first that wants a CSM army but without all the spikes. Personally I have almost no horned helmets in my entire army, and I play Word Bearers!

 

The rules for Legions does reward those who find their army theme and then stick with it, but the Renegade legion keyword is meant as a catch-all term for Warbands from a mix of backgrounds, who are basically raiders.

So you could have a unit of Berzerkers from the World Eaters, some Havocs and Daemon Engines from the Iron Warrior and a corrupt Blood Ravens Librarian with entourage, all in the same warband. Just call them all 'Renegades' and you are good to go!

You can be a Renegade from a traitor legion as well as from a loyalist chapter.

 

(Though to be clear, mixing Legion Keywords in the same detachment is a no-go, since you then lose the benefit of said keywords.)

[N1SB]

Sorry I can only afford a short post, am rushing for Armies on Parade event in my Warhammer Store.  You're doing the right thing taking time to decide.

 

Totally understand Betrayal at Calth preference.  If I was returning to The Hobby now, I would absolutely get that and, balancing lore and budget, go Iron Warriors too.

 

Reason - low cost in money, low effort in painting, good enough fit (Iron Warriors are better known for Mk III "Iron" armour...but are also pragmatists, so it's fine).

 

Also, you played Warmahordes.  Not sure if you read Mike McVey's (former GW, went to PP) painting articles.  He highly recommended a special ink, Tamiya Smoke, which is for metals and gives it this greasy, worn look.  IMHO, Iron Warriors just built, sprayed gunmetal, then washed with Tamiya Smoke is fast and will look great!

 

World Eaters are great, too, but they're known more for close combat and it happens both the Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prospero lack the melee weapons.

 

+++++

 

You don't have to worry about this now, but you may have already learned Iron Warriors are siege specialists, with big artillery weapons, etc.

 

While the Chaos Space Marines Codex has some siege weaponry, the best-bang-for-the-points actually are in the Astra Militarum (i.e. Imperial Guardsmen) Codex.  Thankfully, one of the new edition Forgeworld books, Imperial Armour: Forces of the Astra Militarum, have a sub-section for Renegades & Heretics.  These represent regular, non-Space Marine soldiers or militias that fell to Chaos, and THEY can bring those big artillery guns.  Historically, these would be Iron Warrior "serfs".

 

Just something to look forward to.  This is not a hypothetical, I'm marrying these elements together myself, specifically with Chaos Daemons and Artillery:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340376-patient-zero-chaos-daemons-astra-militarum-artillery-army/