Do authors make Space Marines too relatable sometimes?

[Wrath of Bruinen]

Great topic DogWelder, and there's some really great (and diverse) opinions out there.

 

For me, one of the things I love most about the 40k universe is how it grapples with themes of humanity. For me, the best space marine novels are the ones that explore what it means to be 'human' in such a horrifying setting - what aspects of the human condition are so deeply ingrained that they survive through the rigorous transformation from human to Astartes, or even the gene-crafting of the primarchs?

 

My feeling has been that this is especially the case in 30k/HH - being a bit newer, the Astartes are still trying to figure out what it means to be transhuman, on top of dealing with conquering the galaxy, betrayal etc. It's been a while since I read them so I might be a bit off here, but I remember Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns as being great examples of this - in Magnus and the TS legion, that distinctly human intellectual curiosity, the burning desire to learn is so intrinsic to humanity that it remains even after you turn a human into a space marine, and it ultimately leads to there downfall. Equally, I have always loved how the Word Bearers represented a human need to believe in something, although I was a little disappointed that First Heretic dealt with this a little too simply - I remember wanting some extra nuance after reading it.

 

So, in a roundabout way, to answer your question DogWelder, I think it is important that Astartes are somewhat relatable. Should they be exactly human? No. But in my opinion, having some relatable aspects (rather than making them entirely godlike and distant) really drives home what makes Astartes special and different, and what makes them still fundamentally part of humanity.

[Jareddm]

I would say part of it is that many of the main characters we're exposed to tend to be those in command positions.  I feel such a position would lend itself to more human-like traits compared to focusing on the marine squad members.

 

As for the true cold-blooded killers of a chapter, they're all in 1st company, filling out vanguard and sternguard squads.  Without at least some human traits, that would be the end of their advancement.  I'm reminded of Strike Leader Kahu in Carcharodons: Red Tithe.  He was a well oiled killing machine and a hand of Tyberos, but he was never going to be put in command of anything beyond a squad.

[DarkChaplain]

I think Guy Haley's done pretty well with setting his Astartes apart. Lucretius Corvo was named earlier, and Death of Integrity shows a little more cultural aspect as well, while making them suitably inhuman, up to the speech patterns and calculating thought processes. The Last Days of Ector too had some great stuff there.

 

One stand out novella that springs to mind is John French's Tallarn: Executioner. Sure, it doesn't really give us Astartes PoVs, but it does set them apart from the human survivors/tank crews, even when they're allies. Their reactions as depicted are worlds apart from those of the normal troopers - and those on Tallarn were pretty hardcore after the opening weeks. Which is kind of the crux, isn't it? Astartes are often at their best in the fiction when they're put in contrast to regular humans. Not just the odd shipmaster taking orders but having no real bearing on the story unfolding, but actual protagonists we can relate to, while the author can allow himself to make his Astartes characters more aloof and disjointed from common humanity.

[b1soul]

@TheWeepingAngel

 

"Equally, I have always loved how the Word Bearers represented a human need to believe in something, although I was a little disappointed that First Heretic dealt with this a little too simply - I remember wanting some extra nuance after reading it."

 

Could you elaborate?

 

As an aside, I agree that Asartes are transhumans, not non-humans.

[Wrath of Bruinen]

@TheWeepingAngel

 

"Equally, I have always loved how the Word Bearers represented a human need to believe in something, although I was a little disappointed that First Heretic dealt with this a little too simply - I remember wanting some extra nuance after reading it."

 

Could you elaborate?

 

As an aside, I agree that Asartes are transhumans, not non-humans.

 

It's been a while since I read First Heretic, so my recollection may be a bit unfair to the actual text. And some of what I want to say may stray into real-world/off-topic which I will avoid. But within those two constraints, I'm happy to elaborate.

 

My impression of the Word Bearers (probably coloured by the 2000s era index astartes in White Dwarf) was that they struggled with the Imperial Truth, and worshipped the Emperor as a God. Drawing on my earlier comments about the human condition, this raises all kinds of interesting questions about whether and how belief in something (whether that's a god(s), karma, some other kind of spirituality, science) is integral to the human condition. Was the Imperial Truth a lost cause, doomed to fail by the inevitability of humans (and trans-humans) putting their faith in something they can't quite explain. These questions are further amplified, of course, by the state of the Imperium (especially the Ecclisiary) in 40k. And then of course, there's the question of why other Legions (particularly the Ultramarines) did not face the same problems? Did they genuinely accept the Truth, or were they just better at masking their instinct to believe in the Emperor's divinity?

 

Don't get me wrong, First Heretic did explore some of these themes. I wish I could remember what exactly it was that rubbed me the wrong way, but I think it was just that I felt that the issues were handled fairly clumsily. Perhaps in the context of writing a good, fast-paced novel there wasn't the time or space to dive into things too deeply, and my taste for something a little more philosophical might not be for everyone.

 

I hope that clarifies things for you?

[Volt]

Don't you mean Iron Warriors?

Iron Warriors are more human than Iron Hands. At least the Iron Warriors have sympathetic motivations in their desire for dominion and cutting down that which they believe wronged them. The Iron Hands are spiraling into the abyss in a cycle of self destructive nihilism hurting everything that has the misfortune to share proximity with them. One might question if the Iron Hands even fight for the Emperor and humanity any longer, or if they take to war out of omnicidal hatred for all that is considered lesser than they. After all, Iron Warriors do not hold a seething hatred for the very cause they fight for.

[bluntblade]

True enough. I've found the turmoil of the Iron Hands in Shattered Legions interesting.

[b1soul]

Iron Hands are a super "grimdark" faction. See Wraight's Wrath of Iron

[Ascanius]

Also The Eye of Medusa, in which the Iron Hands captain leading the assault in Wrath of Iron appears as an aspirant and scout.

[bluntblade]

I want to read both in time, but my BL reading list is long and pricey. It's sometimes hard to justify spending £10 when I could get something on Amazon for half that or less.

[Augustus]

It's hit or miss for me and invariably affected by my mood.

 

I think it's genuinely a smart move to have humans there to juxtapose with Space Marines. It's why the DB's Talos series was spot on imo.

 

Then you read something like Pandorax and Azrael and The Gk grandmaster bicker like children or a married couple. Or they wear their emotions on their sleeves.

 

Space Marine chapters are varied, I want them to be unique, bizarre, or at times completely "normal" which is why I like the lose leash (or lack thereof) that BL maintains. That said I don't envy the task at making supper genius 9 ft tall warriors relatable to the average readers, but if the author goes that route I wish they do it well.

[mc warhammer]

That said I don't envy the task at making supper genius 9 ft tall warriors relatable to the average readers, but if the author goes that route I wish they do it well.

 

 

not to play down the importance of a good audience surrogate, but i do think a lot can be gained from reading about characters that you can't identify with. or at least make you work harder to do so

Edited October 27, 2017 by mc warhammer

[b1soul]

That said I don't envy the task at making supper genius 9 ft tall warriors relatable to the average readers, but if the author goes that route I wish they do it well.

I thought primarchs were 9ft plus...SM more like 7 to 8

[R_F_D]

The latest BL book I've read was The Emperor's Gift which I finished on Wednesday so I can't remember if I'd seen this thread, which then got me thinking, or this thought had already occurred to me:

Hyperion really bugged me due to his relatability, I understood and got his petulance but I felt that it shouldn't be there in the first place. He's a Grey Knight! The stoic of the stoicist (not a word)

However with the big reveal (no word of a lie, pretty much dropped the book when I read that) it all seemed to make sense and be fine with me again. I don't know if that was by design.

 

I think there's a definite relatability divide between 30k vs 40k which would make HH SMs more relatable. The HH starts of with hope and then betrayal- two very relatable human emotions (for us as readers and human protagonists in the books). However, they're still SMs. I'm sure there are examples in the books of SMs telling stories and rememberancers simply not getting it. In addition the massacre scene on the Vengful Spirit when they bring Horus back from Davin (i think).

Then you have 40k SMs who are humanities grimdark (See other thread) last line of defence. Ends justify the means. (Totally accept this last point isn't fully fleshed out)

[bluntblade]

I thought the False Gods "massacre" was rather ham fisted and contrived, which hurt its impact

[Xisor]

I do. I've mellowed a bit with... unusual writing styles, but my intolerance persists, if diminished.

 

I think Uriel Ventris remains, for me, the prime example. All of what I see as the defining traits of Space Marines (surety of purpose, relentless drilling, hypnoindoctrination for absolute efficiency and overwhelming force, brutal disregard and contempt for anything that takes them further from victory...) seem promptly set aside. Instead we've got a navel gazing maverick. It's not like you couldn't have such an Ultramarine, but Ventris and Pasanius didn't feel like that.

 

It's not that they were badly written or unreadable (indeed, in hindsight, I think it's the enjoyment of McNeill's writing that keeps me banging my head against this particular brick wall), but that the specifics were all... topsy turvy.

 

Learchus is painted as the villain, after a fashion, the hidebound downer who rains on every parade... but he seems to be the only competent person. It's back to front.

 

I always compare to Chris Wraight's telling of Ludwig Schwarzhelm in the "Swords of the Emperor" stories. He's boring, efficient, humourless, very good at his job, and largely atrocious at everything that isn't his job.

 

Yet he's hugely readable. He's a dominant force in the stories, oozing through everything in a way only solid granite can ooze.

 

I think that's where it comes from, and why I'd say "yes, definitely" to the OP. There's a fine line to tread - and it's certainly difficult, but exploring those strange distinctions is where the meat of the stories are better focussed.

 

(Again, banging the same drum, it's why "Warriors of Ultramar" is for me the best of the UV books - it's got the most of Ventris & Pasanius being good at what they're supposed to be good at, and bad at everything else.)

 

----

 

Incidentally, I think this is why I'm really enjoying "Malodrax" at the moment. Imperial Fists cavorting about on a daemon world should be a short story. But finding that path of "what are they good at", and doing that (and being a bit rubbish when they try anything else) is *hugely* entertaining.

[R_F_D]

I do. I've mellowed a bit with... unusual writing styles, but my intolerance persists, if diminished.

 

I think Uriel Ventris remains, for me, the prime example. All of what I see as the defining traits of Space Marines (surety of purpose, relentless drilling, hypnoindoctrination for absolute efficiency and overwhelming force, brutal disregard and contempt for anything that takes them further from victory...) seem promptly set aside. Instead we've got a navel gazing maverick. It's not like you couldn't have such an Ultramarine, but Ventris and Pasanius didn't feel like that.

 

It's not that they were badly written or unreadable (indeed, in hindsight, I think it's the enjoyment of McNeill's writing that keeps me banging my head against this particular brick wall), but that the specifics were all... topsy turvy.

 

Learchus is painted as the villain, after a fashion, the hidebound downer who rains on every parade... but he seems to be the only competent person. It's back to front.

 

I always compare to Chris Wraight's telling of Ludwig Schwarzhelm in the "Swords of the Emperor" stories. He's boring, efficient, humourless, very good at his job, and largely atrocious at everything that isn't his job.

 

Yet he's hugely readable. He's a dominant force in the stories, oozing through everything in a way only solid granite can ooze.

 

I think that's where it comes from, and why I'd say "yes, definitely" to the OP. There's a fine line to tread - and it's certainly difficult, but exploring those strange distinctions is where the meat of the stories are better focussed.

 

(Again, banging the same drum, it's why "Warriors of Ultramar" is for me the best of the UV books - it's got the most of Ventris & Pasanius being good at what they're supposed to be good at, and bad at everything else.)

 

----

 

Incidentally, I think this is why I'm really enjoying "Malodrax" at the moment. Imperial Fists cavorting about on a daemon world should be a short story. But finding that path of "what are they good at", and doing that (and being a bit rubbish when they try anything else) is *hugely* entertaining.

 

Coincidentally Wraight's Swords duology is the tome I'm working my way through now!

 

In Warriors of Ultramar Learchus is, I think, a good example of what I believe a SM should appear to be for other protagonists, certainly in 40k.  A complete and utter <insert expletive of choice> until the guardsmen had demonstrated their worth to him and even then it seems stilted to me.  In addition Learchus' absolute disbelief at how the people of Erebus (genuinely, is this an Easter Egg?  Or just old BL being a bit loose? No way does a book now have the main location of an Imperial world names after a Traitor) now live, fallen so far from the strictures of RG, makes the split between human and SM distinct to me and actually makes him a bit more relatable to me.  Even if he has got the world's biggest stick up his....

 

 

I thought the False Gods "massacre" was rather ham fisted and contrived, which hurt its impact

 

That's a fair opinion.  I don't think that but I didn't particularly dig the speed at which Horus fell (I think someone on another thread expressed it really well, potentially on what they'd do if they could rewrite False Gods?) EDIT - LOL it's on your thread!

Edited October 29, 2017 by R_F_D

[Volt]

There was one good comic in Inferno!. I forget the name of it but it involved two Ultramarines hunting Dark Eldar, and they were some hardcore uncaring arseholes there to get the job done and kill every single enemy that dared show its head. And when a Guardsman they came across was too mentally disturbed to be useful they used him as bait, leaving him to stammer in anger as this risking of his life without even bothering inform him when the job was done. He was just a tool to them, and nothing more.

[DeathbyWes]

In my case, i'm grimdark to the core - I picked up 40K in the late RT era, my formative 40K years were 2nd Ed. - to me, Space Marines are pre-pubescent and pubescent boys, taken and experimented on, cut-off from external contact and forcefully indoctrinated into the recruiting Chapter's variation of the Imperial Creed. Librarians weed out those with psychic weakness, Chaplains ferret out heresy in thought or deed.

 

What emerges from the baptism of fire is no longer human, it's an Astartes - a monastic, stoic, emotionally repressed killing machine. 

 

While I can understand certain limited aspects of humanity being displayed between brothers (Jealousy, Competitiveness, Comradely etc) I don't believe an Astartes would direct such emotions to, or display in front of, everyday mankind.

 

To me, that's what makes them interesting - they fight and sacrifice for a universe, Imperium and humanity that they can never truly be a part of. 

 

Here here !

 

-W

[Warpmiss]

As everyone has stated, if a writer has Astartes as their main characters and doesn’t make them somewhat likeable the book could be unbearable.

 

I agree with Volt, I wish writers would try to explore why certain SM chapters think and act the way they do without just vilifying them. Writing from a POV that is totally different from the writer’s own values might be hard but can be extremely rewarding not just for the readers because you are presenting them with something new but also for the writers themselves as it helps them improve their skills by stepping out of their comfort zone.

[Knockagh]

Absolutely not. Relating to a character is what makes a book engaging and enjoyable. No matter who weird, phyco or crazy a character is if an author gives him a thread we can sympathise or relate to it makes for a better read

[Phoebus]

The obvious caveat to what follows is that this is a very subjective topic, and people will have differing opinions on what they want or don't want from Space Marines.

 

Speaking for myself, my first and foremost concern is whether or not the author does justice to what a Space Marine is capable of -mentally, psychologically, physically. Ditto for his wargear. When people talk about the little flaws and intricacies that make a character feel more real to them, my instinctive reaction is to ask whether or not the traits proposed make sense for a Space Marine.

 

Take Dan Abnett, for example. He's had his critics in the past with regards to his Space Marines sometimes being over-powered. I would argue, however, that the three battle-brothers who support the Tanith in Salvation's Reach are about as good an example of Adeptus Astartes in M41 as you'll find. Whatever their intelligence level before their transformation was, each now possesses a frightening amount of insight and understanding of tactical matters. Doubt doesn't enter into their equations of life and death except insofar as not knowing whether something will work or not. They are faithful to their oaths and the completion of tasks assigned to them to the point of death. Their empathy for their fellow human beings only goes so far their shared duty is concerned.

 

A perfect example of what I'm talking about is Sar as heck's interaction with Merrt. The former sniper, once second-best in his regiment, was horribly wounded and had to get a prosthetic jaw. Since then, he couldn't come close to the Tanith regimental standards demanded of its sniper section. If Merrt was spending his time feeling sorry for himself, Sar as heck would not have even deigned to give him the time of day. If Merrt's inaccuracy had been caused by psychological trauma, Sar as heck would have dismissed him and his "mortal human weakness." Sar as heck discerned, however, that Merrt's problem was both fixable and outside of his control: the synapses that linked his prosthetic jaw to his brain fired too hard when he concentrated on a shot, making him twitch. That was a problem Sar as heck could fix, and he went out of his way to help the Guardsman. Poor Merrt dies later in that novel. He might have died in that climactic battle even as part of a normal Tanith platoon, but it was Sar as heck's help that got him back in the sniper cadre - and in the mission that would kill him. When the names of the dead are read out by Gaunt in the closing pages, it is almost certain that Sar as heck's eidetic memory and computer-like mind recalled Merrt and processed all of the above. You can practically guarantee that if Sar as heck had any emotional reaction to this, it was joy. Conveying that joy while convincing the reader that it's inhuman but not sadistic or morbid is what I want every Black Library author to be able to do.

 

Are there different ways to skin a cat? Can one Space Marine be more loquacious than another, or more prone to anger, or more invested in preserving human life? Sure, absolutely. Their "left and right limits," though, should fall within the parameters of a Space Marine's mentality, which is defined by duty, loyalty, and the mission at hand. To piggy-back off of Augustus's example, it makes sense for Supreme Grand Master Azrael to be shown as dishonest and secretive in Pandorax. He is that way because the security of his Chapter and their Successors is paramount to him. On the other hand, it's terrible for Supreme Grand Master Azrael and Supreme Grand Master Kaldor Draigo to be shown bickering and trying to trump each other by way of their respective titles. It's childish behavior, but more importantly it's not indicative of warriors who have been brainwashed to think and behave a certain way.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Phoebus