So, no more Commissars. But...

[Feral_80]

So with the new FAQ, Commissars suck.

Close a door, open a portal, we say (or something like that).

 

To improve the Ld of my infantry, I'd really like to use Command squads banners, but they are so so easy to kill and against shooty armies I see them as a waste of points.

 

My choice of regiment is usually Cadian/Tallarn + Catachans, so no Mordian/Valhallan goodies for morale. Catachans can hold their own, but I have a limited number of these (and mostly vehicles). So, what to do? I'm thinking to change quite abruptly what has been a staple component of support characters in my army.

 

Instead of fielding a base of 2x Commissars and 2x Primaris Psykers (plus occasional extras), I will drop both entirely. Enter naked Inquisitors and Astropaths instead. Inquisitors will both provide Ld buff and take the role of the Primaris in throwing smite, and their alternative powers are not that useless anyway. Astropaths will allow me to still access Nightshroud etc. I might even save some points at the end of the day.

 

The only drawback I can think of is that the Inquisitors will need to be in a separate detachment, otherwise they will invalidate any doctrine for my AM guys. But it should not be too difficult to fill either a Supreme Command or a Vanguard detachment between them and the Astropaths.

 

Index Inquisitors may not be super-great, but I believe they qualify as more than decent (unlike their retinue). This seems to me the most efficient way to make up for the loss of the Commissars control over morale. A pity that it eats away Primaris Psykers as well, but that's life.

 

Anybody tried this already? Thoughts?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Well for the Cadians Kell might be handy, and the Catachan get +1Ld from Officers so I'd argue the Inquisitor isn't really necessary unless you're running >10 man squads.

[Feral_80]

I am running 4x or 5x Cadian infantry squads. Kell is ok but I don't love the fact that his banner does not improve Ld, which is quite weird considering a normal regimental banner does. He is not enough to cover my entire deployment, and he will do no good when I play Tallarn. These are the reasons why I am looking for more extensive and flexible ways to back up morale.

 

Catachans, I only use sws or command squads with Straken, so Ld is not really a problem.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

I am currently experimenting with Coteaz and Greyfax in my list. They have done well in two games so far. I took them in a vanguard detachment aND brought two acolytes for each of them as bodyguards. 217 points for the package.

[Major_Gilbear]

To improve the Ld of my infantry, I'd really like to use Command squads banners, but they are so so easy to kill and against shooty armies I see them as a waste of points.

 

Just on this, if the command squad getting fired at prevents other units taking (as much) fire, then even if they die they've still bought a reprieve of a turn or two for the other squads. If they survive, then the flag still gives you the benefit you bought it for.

 

In other words, the command squad is still helping, even if they are just doing so by dying. As long as you're not making your command squads prohibitively expensive with upgrades, this can be a reasonable trade-off if the squad that was saved in its stead sits unmolested on an objective and gives you a VP or whatever.

 

Finally, there is a point at which having one command squad flag means that it's vulnerable, but having more means a much higher proportional resilience if your opponent wants to take them all out.

 

I think having multiple flags in a force needs to have more table time before declarations from an armchair writes them all off. Whilst they may not do exactly what Commissars did, that doesn't automatically make them worthless. <shrugs> My 2 bronze Eagles. :)

[Halfpint100]

 

To improve the Ld of my infantry, I'd really like to use Command squads banners, but they are so so easy to kill and against shooty armies I see them as a waste of points.

 

Just on this, if the command squad getting fired at prevents other units taking (as much) fire, then even if they die they've still bought a reprieve of a turn or two for the other squads. If they survive, then the flag still gives you the benefit you bought it for.

 

In other words, the command squad is still helping, even if they are just doing so by dying. As long as you're not making your command squads prohibitively expensive with upgrades, this can be a reasonable trade-off if the squad that was saved in its stead sits unmolested on an objective and gives you a VP or whatever.

 

Finally, there is a point at which having one command squad flag means that it's vulnerable, but having more means a much higher proportional resilience if your opponent wants to take them all out.

 

I think having multiple flags in a force needs to have more table time before declarations from an armchair writes them all off. Whilst they may not do exactly what Commissars did, that doesn't automatically make them worthless. <shrugs> My 2 bronze Eagles.

 

 

29 points is 4 dudes and 1 flag. That is all you need, same price as your commy (well, 2 points cheaper). If you have enough commander, just take as many command squads with flags as you did commissars. 

[Major_Gilbear]

@ Halfpint100:

 

Yes, exactly; and you can still have your Primaris Psykers just like before. So, aside from shelving the cool Commissar models, business as usual? ;)

[Feral_80]

Eh, I cannot resist to the temptation to equip a Company Command squad. Even if it's cheap, I cannot pay for BS 3+ and just give them just lasguns 

[Halfpint100]

Eh, I cannot resist to the temptation to equip a Company Command squad. Even if it's cheap, I cannot pay for BS 3+ and just give them just lasguns 

 

Give them snipers then, less of a target.

[OnboardG1]

Have you considered giving them sniper rifles? They're cheap and will give your BS3 something to do. That's what I plan to do with my Catachans to make them near leadership immune.

[Major_Gilbear]

Eh, I cannot resist to the temptation to equip a Company Command squad. Even if it's cheap, I cannot pay for BS 3+ and just give them just lasguns 

 

I understand, and I sympathise totally, but that's really a slightly different argument. :)

 

If you are looking for command (i.e., morale) benefits, then it makes sense to use a command squad with a flag. If you want an assault team or a storming force, then you're probably better off considering other tools/options if you can. Giving command squads special weapons for no other reason than to make use of the BS3+ "that you already paid for" is a psychological trap. Nothing wrong with tooling them up if you want to anyway, but you shouldn't feel obliged to do so; their real value is actually the things that they can do but other squads can't.

 

Speaking personally, I always loved tooled-up command squads from a rule-of-cool perspective, however I always found it a bit odd from a gameplay perspective. Tooled-up or elite squads is what SWT, Veterans, and Tempestus already do; the only real reason command squads still have options for lots of special weapons is because it's a legacy from 40k2E (and the Imperial Guard list looked quite different back then).

 

As others have suggested (here and elsewhere), if you really want to give them weapons that are suited to command squads that hang back, sniper rifles are very cheap, and grenade launchers are both quite cheap and flexible. :)

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Oops wrong thread.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[olcottr]

Astropath casting Mental Fortitude. Only works on one unit, but they autopass, so lose no models in the Morale Phase. Also, half the price of a barebones Commissar.

[Feral_80]

I thought about sniper rifles, but here's another of my idiosyncrasies: For aesthetic and coherency reasons, I cannot tolerate to have 3 sneaky snipers standing just beside a guy who is waving a huge banner. The fact that I modelled all my snipers with ghillie suits and standard bearers with coloured banners does not help.

I know it am difficult :D I'll give it a try to naked CS anyway...

Edited October 25, 2017 by Feral_80

[OnboardG1]

I thought about sniper rifles, but here's another of my idiosyncrasies: For aesthetic and coherency reasons, I cannot tolerate to have 3 sneaky snipers standing just beside a guy who is waving a huge banner. The fact that I modelled all my snipers with ghillie suits and standard bearers with coloured banners does not help.

I know it am difficult I'll give it a try to baked CS anyway...

 

They're not snipers, they're squad designated marksmen ;) . Then again I have the Catachan sprues which let you make a non-ghille suit marksman.

[NatBrannigan]

I love that people are talking about taking banners! I can't remember the last Guard codex without some poor sap waving a banner at the enemy. I'm going to tone down my Command Squads and take away their heavy weapons and such so they're slightly less of a target. Might add a Medic in there as well.

 

What I'm now really tempted to do is get some instruments for them. Drums, flutes and bagpipes would be great!

[duz_]

Someone say banners? :D

(Although admittedly I never actually used their +1Ld ability, it was never necessary or they were dead :lol: )

[micahwc]

A supreme command detachment of 3 inquisitors with an assassin in the elite choice would help leadership and other issues.

[RangerRob24]

I use Mordian Vet squads with a regimental banner nearby.  LD 9 does ok to keep them on the table.

FAQ totally missed my build.   Never used Conscripts or Commisars.

[Die4Emprah]

I run banners by default in my DKK lists.

 

For astromil, I'm not sure if I even care about morale anymore. 

Run Valhallan
Take Yarrick for bubble of reroll on your long ballers (he might accidentally shoot a few guys, meh)
Take Company Commander with Magic Pistol 
Take 2 astropaths (for morale magic).  Done. 
 

[Vel'Cona]

OK, so I get why people feel that Summary Execution is kind of crummy now, but are we forgetting that Lord Commissars have Aura of Discipline?  I mean, CS can get the Regimental Standard for +1 Ld, but in reality they're much harder to screen since they're not a Character.  The Lord Commissar is a bit pricier, but he can be decently fighty in melee (esp. with a PF), and, once again, is much easier to protect (though Snipers are still a reality).

 

I guess what I'm saying is we don't necessarily need to look outside the Codex for our Morale Phase protection needs.

[Mitchverr]

Inquisitors are a nice deal, but I think this might help more possibly?

 

Although I aint trialled it yet with generic guard, personally I am still of the opinion that people should ally in Venner from the Death korps with his flags, 158 points all in if you dont buy special weapons for a 25 inch diameter (12 inch radius off him) bubble of LD 11, pickup a warlord trait for ld 12 or a warlord trait for a bubble of 31 inches/15 inches away from him.

 

Effectively you bring

Venner

Infantry squad with platoon banner

Command squad with regimental banner

 

On top, DKK units dont need to test from shooting damage, so effectively you have a 10 wound flag and a 4 wound flag which you can park on top of an objective later on also which will hold to the last man and it gives you access to engineers which in my view are the best troopers in the guard army outside of a scion and Venner has his special item that DKK marshals can get which makes Dx weapons always count as a 1 when wounding him (so no 1 shotting).

 

Finally, how many command squads with flags would you need to get a good "circle" of aura across your units you want to buff? How many commanders will you need on top of this to allow you to bring them instead of (or alongside) decked out armed command squads with special weapons?

 

And I mean, 12/15 inch radius allows for pretty good hiding lol.

 

Finally, dont forget the stratagem which allows you to roll D3 instead of D6 for the tests on top of this, also if your a fan of priests bring 1 of those too for LD 12 and all the kriegers having +2 attacks in CC because 1 of their flags gives +1 ld and +1 attack.

 

 

Am I just thinking crazy here? Because to me it seems like an extremely interesting buff commander strat and is something I am thinking about for when i play a more "pure" guard dex army over a DKK army.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Mitchverr

[Chris521]

So we know that the commissar tank now give a leadership 9 bubble, but I'm also 95% sure that the banners stack on that bubble.  The wording on that rule is different from the commissar. It says that all friendly ASTRA MILITARUM units have Ld 9 (unless already higher) withing 6 inches.  I don't think that particular wording stops the banners.  It also seem to give commissars Ld 9 as well funnily enough.

 

I'm also under the impression that it can be used multiple times. Furthermore I haven't seen anything to suggest that Pask can't be a commissar either as the stratagem applies to the LEMAN RUSS keyword.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Chris521

[FallenSoldiers]

So we know that the commissar tank now give a leadership 9 bubble, but I'm also 95% sure that the banners stack on that bubble. The wording on that rule is different from the commissar. It says that all friendly ASTRA MILITARUM units have Ld 9 (unless already higher) withing 6 inches. I don't think that particular wording stops the banners. It also seem to give commissars Ld 9 as well funnily enough.

 

I'm also under the impression that it can be used multiple times. Furthermore I haven't seen anything to suggest that Pask can't be a commissar either as the stratagem applies to the LEMAN RUSS keyword.

This is almost exactly what I’ve been doing. I run Catachans so I keep an officer nearby and there’s my Ld10. Everyone in my circle laughed at me for starting this like 2 weeks ago. “You have commissars, why bother trying to boost leadership??” Well, a wise soldier always plans for what’s coming!

[duz_]

I have to admit when I first saw the Commissar tank it seemed redundant, but now it certainly has some appeal

It does also seem to ignore most of the arguments about whether or not other buffs will stack or not as the wording is very clear

That could take my pre-game CP usage to 3... but I can see myself claiming that back during the course of a game.