So, no more Commissars. But...

[FallenSoldiers]

I have to admit when I first saw the Commissar tank it seemed redundant, but now it certainly has some appeal

It does also seem to ignore most of the arguments about whether or not other buffs will stack or not as the wording is very clear

That could take my pre-game CP usage to 3... but I can see myself claiming that back during the course of a game.

Statistically you’ll get 1/3 of them back right away anyway, so you’d only need to farm 2 more!

[TheShredder]

OK, so I get why people feel that Summary Execution is kind of crummy now, but are we forgetting that Lord Commissars have Aura of Discipline?  I mean, CS can get the Regimental Standard for +1 Ld, but in reality they're much harder to screen since they're not a Character.  The Lord Commissar is a bit pricier, but he can be decently fighty in melee (esp. with a PF), and, once again, is much easier to protect (though Snipers are still a reality).

 

I guess what I'm saying is we don't necessarily need to look outside the Codex for our Morale Phase protection needs.

 

I think the issue is that Lord Commissars and Inquisitors are about the same cost (including the Commissar's mandatory gear). Both have a Ld9 Aura.

 

The Inquisitor brings Smite. The Lord Commissar brings Summary Execution - which is a active detriment. 

 

I don't see the appeal of the Lord Commissar outside of fluff. 

[sirparthos]

True, but having a LC reading from his book while gesturing heroically with his powerfist is a nice sight :)

[Guardsman Bob]

The only drawback I can think of is that the Inquisitors will need to be in a separate detachment, otherwise they will invalidate any doctrine for my AM guys. But it should not be too difficult to fill either a Supreme Command or a Vanguard detachment between them and the Astropaths.

 

Index Inquisitors may not be super-great, but I believe they qualify as more than decent (unlike their retinue). This seems to me the most efficient way to make up for the loss of the Commissars control over morale. A pity that it eats away Primaris Psykers as well, but that's life.

 

Anybody tried this already? Thoughts?

Pre-Codex I was dabbling with Inquisition. Point costs didn’t feel right for the medicore job they were doing. Post Codex I’ve been straight AM/IG. It would have to be a fairly high point game for me to justify an Inquisition detachment and it would be with the Throne Of Judgment.

 

As for regular Commissars my Gaunt and Shaffer are shelved. I am keeping two Power fisted Commissar Lords at hand. Then again I don’t use Conscripts so that base 9 Leadership really is helpful with MSU.

[Guardsman Bob]

 

OK, so I get why people feel that Summary Execution is kind of crummy now, but are we forgetting that Lord Commissars have Aura of Discipline?  I mean, CS can get the Regimental Standard for +1 Ld, but in reality they're much harder to screen since they're not a Character.  The Lord Commissar is a bit pricier, but he can be decently fighty in melee (esp. with a PF), and, once again, is much easier to protect (though Snipers are still a reality).

 

I guess what I'm saying is we don't necessarily need to look outside the Codex for our Morale Phase protection needs.

 

 

I think the issue is that Lord Commissars and Inquisitors are about the same cost (including the Commissar's mandatory gear). Both have a Ld9 Aura.

 

The Inquisitor brings Smite. The Lord Commissar brings Summary Execution - which is a active detriment. 

 

I don't see the appeal of the Lord Commissar outside of fluff.

Inquisition is prohibitvely expensive for what they do. Lord Commissar also has better combat stats other than wounds. I really like hitting with plasma on a 2+ and 3+ with a power fist.

 

If GW had allowed Inquisition inside guard forces without mucking up Doctrines I’d be trying to use them as Primus Psyker replacements who helped keep the lines in formation.

[BurntheHeretic]

I definitely see use for the Commissar Tank now, as long as it doesn´t lose its regimental doctrine! And nothing indicates it does...

 

As for the command squads, not outfitting them with too much expensive equipment may ensure they are not that attractive to target. And if they do get shot, that´s less incoming fire for your infantry..

[TheShredder]

 

 

OK, so I get why people feel that Summary Execution is kind of crummy now, but are we forgetting that Lord Commissars have Aura of Discipline?  I mean, CS can get the Regimental Standard for +1 Ld, but in reality they're much harder to screen since they're not a Character.  The Lord Commissar is a bit pricier, but he can be decently fighty in melee (esp. with a PF), and, once again, is much easier to protect (though Snipers are still a reality).

 

I guess what I'm saying is we don't necessarily need to look outside the Codex for our Morale Phase protection needs.

 

I think the issue is that Lord Commissars and Inquisitors are about the same cost (including the Commissar's mandatory gear). Both have a Ld9 Aura.

 

The Inquisitor brings Smite. The Lord Commissar brings Summary Execution - which is a active detriment. 

 

I don't see the appeal of the Lord Commissar outside of fluff.

Inquisition is prohibitvely expensive for what they do. Lord Commissar also has better combat stats other than wounds. I really like hitting with plasma on a 2+ and 3+ with a power fist.

 

 

Inquisitors do have more attacks than Lord Commissars.

 

And, as I said, they also have Smite - which is probably going to match whatever a Lord Commissar can do in shooting/melee.  

 

Each to their own though. I can understand people wanting to stick with pure IG. 

[Chris521]

As for the inquisitors, I can see me bringing a battalion with 2 of them, a few acolytes as body guards, and about 60 conscripts.  The conscripts are a screen so their Regiment isn't very important to me. 

[olcottr]

I can see it now.  Knight Commander Pask with Officio Prefectus Tank Stratagem, giving Ld 9 to his Conscript screen. bwahahahaha!

[Guardsman Bob]

 

 

 

OK, so I get why people feel that Summary Execution is kind of crummy now, but are we forgetting that Lord Commissars have Aura of Discipline?  I mean, CS can get the Regimental Standard for +1 Ld, but in reality they're much harder to screen since they're not a Character.  The Lord Commissar is a bit pricier, but he can be decently fighty in melee (esp. with a PF), and, once again, is much easier to protect (though Snipers are still a reality).

 

I guess what I'm saying is we don't necessarily need to look outside the Codex for our Morale Phase protection needs.

 

 

I think the issue is that Lord Commissars and Inquisitors are about the same cost (including the Commissar's mandatory gear). Both have a Ld9 Aura.

 

The Inquisitor brings Smite. The Lord Commissar brings Summary Execution - which is a active detriment. 

 

I don't see the appeal of the Lord Commissar outside of fluff.

Inquisition is prohibitvely expensive for what they do. Lord Commissar also has better combat stats other than wounds. I really like hitting with plasma on a 2+ and 3+ with a power fist.

 

Inquisitors do have more attacks than Lord Commissars.

 

And, as I said, they also have Smite - which is probably going to match whatever a Lord Commissar can do in shooting/melee.  

 

Each to their own though. I can understand people wanting to stick with pure IG.

I get smite cheaper from my Primus Psykers, I’ll stick with a model that get’s an invuln save and top tier BS/WS for Combat. Going to a WS 4+ with a PF inquisitor would be my bottom acceptance level if it had to be in a worst case senario.

 

This has nothing to do with wants. Unless your playing high point games it is just inefficient to go with the Inquisition. Far better to scoop up those tasty Command Points with Brigade and Battalion Detachments. At 2.5k I could see bringing some inquisition because after a point gimicks or micro-strategies have a better chance of working out.

[TheShredder]

 

I get smite cheaper from my Primus Psykers, I’ll stick with a model that get’s an invuln save and top tier BS/WS for Combat. Going to a WS 4+ with a PF inquisitor would be my bottom acceptance level if it had to be in a worst case senario.

 

This has nothing to do with wants. Unless your playing high point games it is just inefficient to go with the Inquisition. Far better to scoop up those tasty Command Points with Brigade and Battalion Detachments. At 2.5k I could see bringing some inquisition because after a point gimicks or micro-strategies have a better chance of working out.

 

 

A Primaris Psyker is cheaper on his own, sure. And if you were just looking for Smite, I'd agree that he wins, hands down. 

 

However, a Primaris Psyker + Commissar Lord is 95+pts. An Inquisitor combines the two for 55pts. Isn't that a far better deal?

 

You say that it's inefficient to go with the Inquisitor, but melee is itself inefficient. I'd argue that bare-bones Inquisitors (or maybe with 2pt Storm Bolters) are far more efficient than taking Primaris Psykers and Lord Commissars with Power Fists.

[sirparthos]

Chain sword and plasma pistol Inquisitor. And with a gold-colored armor set, easy to make. mostly. :P

[Withershadow]

I don't know if Commissars outright suck.  It's only once casualties approach 8 that they become counter-productive, which does suck for conscripts and combined squads.  Smaller units I think will be fine.  Heavy weapon squads for example become effectively fearless with a Commissar nearby.  Overall though, I do think Commissar Lords are a better bet over the elite versions. They are the best melee character we have, +2Ld is significant, and they can serve as HQs for additional detachments without breaking regimental bonuses.

 

For example, 3 casualties or less now pass automatically (which otherwise is a 33% chance of failure with a Sgt, 50% without one).  6 casualties still means you have a 50% chance of passing morale, as opposed to all but guaranteed failure before (16% chance with a Sgt).  Even with 8 casualties you still get to hold on to a slim hope of saving that special weapon guy.

 

However I agree and have brought up before that Inquisitors are probably a better bet now if you're only after leadership bonuses.

 

There are other options for the Guard, of course.  Valhalla has a pretty good solution for conscripts, with their relic and doctrine.  Catachans units, whether veterans, infantry, or specialists (the idea of Catachan conscripts was always strange to me) can probably operate without any additional morale support.  Both of those are very appropriate to the background I would say.  The Cadians also get an honorable mention since they can stack leadership bonuses and re-rolls from Kell.  There are two main questions, though:

 

1. Does a Commissar's leadership aura stack with a banner's bonus?  A tight reading of the rules suggests no, since the banner applies specifically "to its Leadership" and the Commissar's aura states they can "use the Commissar's leadership instead of their own."  However, previous FAQ questions regarding substitutions and modifiers suggests that this would indeed work.  From a 40k fluff point of view, it would make sense that being near a Commissar AND your regimental standard would be extra duper inspiring.  It would help soften the sting over the change to Commissars, although then this becomes an even more vague RAWvRAI situation.

 

2. If a unit in range of both Kell and a Commissar, does the leadership re-roll from Kell take place before summary execution is triggered?  Both trigger on failure, so do both take place?  Does the player whose turn it is get to decide order of resolution, in which case it's up to your opponent on their turns?  Or is it the strictest option, of a mandatory execution and only one re-roll allowed due to no re-rolling re-rolls clause.  This last option sucks, but also for some reason gives me a vague sense of deja vu from a previous edition.

[Guardsman Bob]

 

I get smite cheaper from my Primus Psykers, I’ll stick with a model that get’s an invuln save and top tier BS/WS for Combat. Going to a WS 4+ with a PF inquisitor would be my bottom acceptance level if it had to be in a worst case senario.

This has nothing to do with wants. Unless your playing high point games it is just inefficient to go with the Inquisition. Far better to scoop up those tasty Command Points with Brigade and Battalion Detachments. At 2.5k I could see bringing some inquisition because after a point gimicks or micro-strategies have a better chance of working out.

 

 

A Primaris Psyker is cheaper on his own, sure. And if you were just looking for Smite, I'd agree that he wins, hands down. 

However, a Primaris Psyker + Commissar Lord is 95+pts. An Inquisitor combines the two for 55pts. Isn't that a far better deal?

You say that it's inefficient to go with the Inquisitor, but melee is itself inefficient. I'd argue that bare-bones Inquisitors (or maybe with 2pt Storm Bolters) are far more efficient than taking Primaris Psykers and Lord Commissars with Power Fists.

The inquisitor thrown into my force would kill my doctrine. The detachment tax just isn’t worth it in non apoc games. I’ve tried fitting an inquisitorial detachment in, it cost me Command Points and firepower.

 

It is true for Guard in general melee is inefficent. The core mechanics of 8th has still made it obnoxiously important. It happens all the time as a byproduct of getting those four lasgun shots per guardsman. My powerfist and Sword Of Conquest helped me win both league battles against Space Wolves and Raven Guard tonight. In fact my Warlord’s melee cut down a Ravenguard Lt in one round of close combat. It was a pivotal moment because he was still winning on victory points at the time.

 

The stormbolter bit is very interesting. It really feels like GW has finally gotten them to fit into the game. My preference would be to stick to good old plasma in a TAC list because I do so much ranked lasgun fire. Yet it’s not that hard to imagine with a different tatical approach where the extra stormbolter shots would be vital.

[Feral_80]

Inquisitor is better than Lord Commissar, quite obviously. Who cares for BS/WS 2+? That's not his real job anyway. You'll want to equip an Inquisitor with either just a chainsword or a power maul/storm bolter at best, no power fists needed. Inquisitor + Astropath gets you all the buffs and smite you need for a cheaper cost than Lord Commissar + Primaris Psyker, without the (often just a drawback) Commissar's reroll kill and the (situational) Commissar's marginally improved melee punch. 

 

The only real problem with an Inquisitor is the separate detachment, however that is easily solved: you take an Astra Militarum Vanguard detachment and use those useful Auxilla choices to fill it, since they won't benefit from doctrines anyway. For example, now I am experimenting with a Vanguard with 2x Inquisitors as HQ, 2x Astropath, and 1x Bullgryns. But you could also use Tempestor Primes and Scions Command Squads, if you don't plan to have them in their own detachment anyway. Or, if you use them, Ratlings, Crusaders, Priests, etc. etc.: our Elite section is literally full of cheap and good choices that help us fill just any specialized detachment without any real loss of doctines buff.

 

Commissariat tank: wow, pay 2 CP to make a tank a fire magnet, lose it on turn 1 (because you will: LRs survive when you take several and they pose more or less an equal, distributed threat - that's why I think Pask is not worth it), and then ruin your 'strategy' for having a Ld buff? It still sucks badly. Not really working, thanks.

 

As for the Kell + Commissar reroll loop: that's one of the obvious things that GW has not considered in a poorly written and devised FAQ. And it's not the only one: take a look at the Elysians 'Iron Discipline' rule, and notice that hilariously their Lord Commissars have it: now, do you use the 'free' morale reroll first, or do you use the one that kills a model instead? Or first one and then the other? Bah.

 

Finally: please STOP saying 'well just go Valhallan and take their relic'. It's NOT a solution at all, also because I for example don't play Valhallan and certainly I don't want to switch my models/detachment in order to do it. I stated from the beginning that I was looking for a flexible solution that would generally be valid for any AM army.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Feral_80

[Frater Cornelius]

If efficiency is all you are after, you can easily mix doctrines. Play a Battalion with 3-6 x 30 Conscripts, a Lord Commissar for Ld9 and a Company Commander with the Valhallan doctrine. Call it a Valhallan Penal Battalion/Legion that was sent to support your dudes.

[CoffeeGrunt]

To be fair Feral, your points feel more like Commissars don't work for your playstyle, not that they don't work at all.

[Riot Earp]

Nobody noticed that the inquisitor not just give the LD9 but he also can make an "imperial" squad fearless with Mental Fortitude?

[Feral_80]

To be fair Feral, your points feel more like Commissars don't work for your playstyle, not that they don't work at all.

 

Hum, why? My playstyle can be summed up as: I have no (regiment-)specific ways to improve my morale. So, I'm looking for something that works for any non-specific AM build, which I thought would be of interest to anybody who is not switching to Valhallans just because of a FAQ.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Tbf I just don't run Morale mitigation. Multiple 10 man squads means I don't really need to. I've got three separate Stratagems to mitigate them if I really need to.

[Feral_80]

That's something to try as well, I guess. But you do run Psychic support, I guess? That's the boon that makes Inquisitors interesting to me, in addition to the Ld buff, because they combine two things in one.

[Major_Gilbear]

But you do run Psychic support, I guess?

 

Within reason, do you need to? Afterall, not every meta is full of WAAC netlisters.

 

There's also an argument for separation of roles; yes, an all-in-one option seems cost effective, but it's also a bigger loss if you that model gets killed. With different models offering differing things, losing an Astropath or Primaris Psyker for example doesn't ruin your morale support that a flag or officer provides.

[CoffeeGrunt]

That's something to try as well, I guess. But you do run Psychic support, I guess? That's the boon that makes Inquisitors interesting to me, in addition to the Ld buff, because they combine two things in one.

 

It definitely makes them useful, but it goes against the idea I build my list around, (decentralisation, as much as possible, so there's no real priority targets.) As Gilbear noted there's also an argument in favour of separating roles. Now I see literally no snipers at my local, other than a guy who really, really wants Ratlings to be a thing, and also occasionally brings Transuranic Arquebuses, so my Characters tend to not worry about that too much, but if a Vindicare is hunting your meta I'd avoid using such juicy, lynchpin targets.

 

But that's just me tbh, my playstyle probably isn't the most effective but it's the one that feels natural to me, and it's giving my opponents problems as they simply struggle to inflict meaningful damage because they struggle to identify what's important in my army. Apologies if my comment earlier came off as a bit of a snipe, I browse on mobile here and try and keep things concise to save my poor thumbs, but that makes them come across a bit snarky.

[Major_Gilbear]

I think that's the thing with Guard (highlighted somewhat with the unfortunate recent excitement around conscript blobs); it's an army designed around volume, redundancy, and a certain amount of decentralisation. Small, compact, elite multi-role units/models do have their place in the army, but they are not really the focus nor what makes the army work.

[Feral_80]

I am not sure I understand what a couple of minor psykers have to do with waac, but apart from that I totally agree with the decentralization concept. That is why I never field single 'strong' (for any reason) piece, such as Pask, super-heavy, commissariat tanks, etc. Now that I think about it, nothing in my average army exceeds 200 pts, and often is below 100. That is also why I liked the idea of a 55 pts inquisitor to help a bit around...